Then you have made my point, chances increase with age of defects in all animals and the defect is genetic, thus reducing the gene pool by producing a defective animal. If this defective animal reproduces it will pass on the defect to it's offspring yes?

Thats my point. If its purely to ID sex, then I should be able to take a 2" spike or even a buttonif I can ID that its a male. Playing Devils advocate of course...but the arguments made here against increase inAR can be made against the current AR of a 3" spike.

Maybe everyone should get one "any deer" tag and thats it..

I agree the 3" spike is wrong it should be atleast 3 points on one side

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I agree the 3" spike is wrong it should be atleast 3 points on one side
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I agree too. There should be some betterrestriction. Not for trophies, but for a better age class structure of males. good luck..

Again, if you would take the time to LEARN THE HISTORY OF HUNTING AND RELATED REGULATIONS AND HOW THEY CAME TO BE, you may see that your argument, although it sounds cute and smart to you, is actually pretty lame.

1. What was the implement that hunting seasons started around (I'll help you here, the first huting seasons were launched in the early 1900's. The first official archery season was established in the 1930's - Wisconsin, 1950's - NY).

2. What is the range of first implements?

3. Were scopes with magnification powers beyond 2X readily available in the early 1900's?

This is where it was established, with the BIOLOGICAL REASON BEING TO ASSURE HERD GROWTH AND RESTORATION. The 3" minimum was to allow for the SMALLEST VISIBLE deterimining characteristic of a buck to determine whether the target was indeed a buck. You cannot tell me with a straight face that you believe 2" is ample for the majority of firearms hunters across the state. If you attempt to say this, I'll call you out as a "fibber". THis isn't based on archery hunting and relative very close range. duh! Its built around firearms with open iron sights.

Now, what you are attempting to do is somehow re-write the history of what we have and why we have it in place, as a means to justify a position you have yet to justify successfully.

Try again. Only next time, apply what you say i the context of educated, knowledge concerning the history of hunting, in this case, in NYS.

What the two of you just posted is about as insulting to those who secured hunting rights and expansion in NYS, very insulting, for your own selfish reasons. Absolutely pathetic.

Since apparent ignorance abounds concerning history of hunting, please allow me to give a quick crash course.

NYS opened the first controlled hunting season (very short, firearms only) in the Adirondack Region of NYS only, in the late 1900s. Each hunter had to purchase the newly instituted hunting license (no hunter's safety course then) and you could only use a firearm with single projectile. Hunters could harvest only ONE BUCK, NO DOES, and I believe we had a 3 - 5 day season. People griped, as our herd numbers were estimated to be less than 20,000 across the State, saying the season would decimate the emerging herds.

NYS opened more areas of the state to hunting post WWII, as despite guys shooting bucks with 3" antlers and up, the herds were growing and could withstand hunting in more areas of NYS.

In the 1950's NYS introduced the early archery season, and in addition, also started a "Doe Day (last day of the week-long Regular Season)". Opposition claimed it would decimate the deer herds. Herd size was estimated in the 1950's across NYS to be exceeding 100,000.

1960's, the doe day was abolished, and archery season was extended as was regular season (by a week). The doe day was scrapped in favor of the new doe party permit system (where 3 or more hunters could apply for one doe permit, and the only guy who could legally shoot a doe was the guy who was wearing the orange doe permit arm band that day.) Again, complaints about decimating the deer herd. Population had risen in 10 years to an estimated 200,000 deer in NYS

1970's - Compound bows were made legal archery equipment, shotguns were permitted to have scopes. No, no, no, you cannot, the herds will be decimated.

1980's - Blackpowder ML was introduced, as well as pistol/ handguns. BP was side lock or flint lock, round ball, no scope. Herds continued to rise, now estimated at over 500,000. During the 1980's, NYS witnessed their highest big game hunter participation of nearlt 780,000 licensed hunters. Hunter safety courses, including archery safety, introduced. Minimum length of original classes was 6 hours HS, 4 hrs AS.

1990's - Conical and sabot projectiles were approved as legal projectiles for both ML and shotguns. Scopes on handguns allowed. The new in line ML was permitted, and scopes could be used. Mechanical broadheads were permitted. Sunday hunting was added to regular season, as was another 3 days. Extended season was expanded from 3 days to 5 days for BP, 7 days for archery. Party Doe permit requirement was scrapped. Individuals could now get DMPs alone. In fact, individuals could get up to two DMPs. DMP legal use was extended from regular season only, to also permit use in specific WMU during last week of archery. Deer herds estimate approaching 1 million animals statewide. Hunter numbers decline by 50,000.

2000s - New tags expressly for Archery/ ML (2!). DMPs now valid throughout all seasons, in the WMU they are written for. Big Game season extended another 5 days, to include an additional weekend of reg season hunting. Extended seasons lengthened to 9 days, both archery and ML.

Despite the high harvest of does during the early 2000, the herds are recovering once again, stabilizing, to the point where we can increase DMPs in specific WMUs (happened this season 2006). Deer numbers are still thriving.

Now, for the biological advantage/ benefit end of things. 3" tine allowed comfortable identification at rifle range, through open sights, to distinguish between buck and doe. Set very early on. This was a direct benefit to the herd, as the reporductive component was left alone, and we all know that one buck can inseminate up to a couple dozen does during any given rut. Must work, since for the first 50 years of NYS hunting, all hunters could shoot were the bucks, and the numbers of deer did nothing but climb.

Now, to keep numbers in check, we must harvest the does. Biological Benefit/ Advantage is to keep the new recruits from instantly doubling the size of the herds, overwhelming the habitat, which could cause starvation and disease. Number of does to be harvested must still allow for some growth to the herd, without growth being explosive, or reductions being catastrophic. Of course, the double-edged sword to higher doe harvest is the inevitable higher button buck harvest, too. After all, if you cannot shoot an antlerless deer legally, all them button bucks make it to rack status, do they not? Yep, they do...

So, what biological benefit/ advantage does a higher AR deliver to the deer herd? We already know that through many decades of hunting, if we target all the bucks and no does, the herd still grows. Does a higher AR mean stronger fawns? Does a higher AR mean better breeding (don't know how that can be considering the growth of the herd w/o a higher AR)?

I hear a lot of guys saying that if we pass on the smaller bucks, they become bigger bucks next year. Fine. But how does this benefit the deer? Or does this really benefit the HUNTER more because you will presumably see bigger bucks?

This benefits the HUNTER moreso than the deer, and this is completely 100% against the precipts of conservation set forth by Boone & CRockett club co-founder, and father of conservation, Pres. Theodore Roosevelt. BY supporting a higher AR, devoid of any biological advantages/ benefits to the deer, you are placing more importance on HUNTER SATISFACTION than SPECIES CONSERVATION.

Argue against that observation..... I doubt you can, because that observation is the truth. You scream that NY has "no big bucks", yet each year monster 180-200 inch class bucks are harvested. No, you're not seeing them near your stand. No consideration for more important factors, like habitat quality, and diminished access to hunting lands. Nope. Hunter satisfaction comes before herd conservation in your minds. Shame on all of you.

How about Buckoe ratio being 1:1. What befeit to the herds does that bring? The dominant bucks will mate with the most does. Nature's way. Some argue that a 1:1 ratio means increased competition for the does (discounting that the doe also chooses to mate with a dominant buck), which means more fighting, rubbing and an ability to rattle and grunt deer to your position. Again, benefits the HUNTER first, not the deer. The deer numbers are very healthy, and well sustained.

So, we have boiled down the priority, HUNTER SATISFACTION FIRST, DEER SECOND. So, how do we manage the deer to assure the future? Well, we need an entirely new, and more detailed reporting system and estimating harvest goal methodology, which we do not have in place right now.

The answer, well we gotta try something!

Its really enough to make one vomit, really is.

Straight from the Bat Phone, hot off the presses... Read, and enjoy.... I make some sense from time to time. And I am happy I get listened to, from time to time..... NY Hunters.... You're welcome....

An overview of the Department of Environmental Conservation*s Automated Licensing System (DECALS)

A report to the Conservation Fund Advisory Board

January 8, 2007

Our Team

DECALS is a complex program managed by a very capable team, including*

Tom Kasky*Tom is DEC*s DECALS project manager and is employed by the New York State Technology Enterprise Corporation, a private, not-for-profit engineering company with many clients in the New York State governmental sector. Tom works closely with our vendor, Verizon Business, and is our key liaison between Verizon and program personnel.

Eric Schneider*Eric is Verizon Business* account executive managing the DECALS contract with DEC.

Mary Bailey*Mary Bailey works in the Division of Fish, Wildlife & Marine Resources Wildlife Services Section and supervises the issuance of deer management permits, and is involved with many, day-to-day DECALS management issues, including helping with the negotiations of the new contract. Mary also oversees the production of the annual Hunting and Trapping Regulations Guide.

Donna Dyer*Donna also works in the Wildlife Services Section and supervises the License Sales program, including lifetime license sales, and is the Department*s primary liaison with our 1,600 license issuing agents. Donna also supervises license sales at the Albany headquarters and at the State Fair. She conducts and coordinates the annual agent training program, and staffs an office that responds to hundreds of emails and phone calls from agents across the State.

Scott Houde*Scott is a computer consultant and data processing specialist who works closely with DEC in summarizing and analyzing license sales data.

Gordon Batcheller*Gordon is the Section Head for Wildlife Services. Wildlife Services is responsible for implementing DECALS.

Our Doctrine

For many hunters, anglers, and trappers, the purchase of a license may be the only time of the year when they interact with the Department. For successful hunters or trappers, their reporting of game harvest is an additional time when they interact directly with the Department.


For this reason, we consider all elements of DECALS to be crucial, and we want their experience to be efficient, friendly, and enjoyable. This requires a strong focus on customer service so that outdoor enthusiasts may be efficiently licensed so that they may go afield to enjoy the benefits of New York*s fish and wildlife resources, while fully complying with all of the associated legal requirements.

Therefore, our doctrine is**Outstanding Customer Service.*

The Contract

The Department is actively negotiating with Verizon Business for a new five year contract. Elements under active consideration include the following*

* Reducing the number of agents based on their records of sales.
* Moving all agents to the Internet by January 2008. Agents would be required to have their own Internet Service Provider. This will save the agency about $300,000 per year.
* Significant software/programming changes to improve the efficiency of a number of elements of the system (see below).

License Materials

We continue to look for ways to improve the license material. Planned changes include all of the following*

* We will use a total of three colors (green, yellow, light gray) in alternating years, beginning with 2007-2008 sales (yellow). This will make it easier for both licensees and law enforcement to know what license year they are using/examining.
* We are changing to a material with a different coating that will make it easier to write on.
* The license material will be printed using a more efficient printing system.
* We are working to improve the design and readability of the text on the licenses, to make it easier to read essential information (name, date of birth, document numbers.) In the future, the license panels may have an entirely different *look* to make it more customer friendly, and easier for law enforcement.

Federal e-Duck Stamp

New York has been designated as one of 15 pilot states to test a new Federal e-Duck stamp. Migratory game bird hunters will be able to buy an electronic duck stamp at DEC*s license issuing outlets and immediately go duck/goose hunting with their proof of purchase. The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service will later mail a regular stamp.


The 2007 Habitat/Access Stamp

This year*s Habitat/Access Stamp will feature the white-tailed deer. The artwork for the license panel is currently in preparation but the pin has been selected, featuring an adult white-tailed deer buck.

Harvest Reporting

We are planning significant changes beginning with the 2007 hunting seasons*

* Allow Internet reporting of harvest. (The phone system will continue as well.)
* Reduce the complexity of the phone reporting system.
* Use *voice recognition* software for the phone reporting system, so that numbers will no longer need to be *punched.*

Access to License Sales Data

We receive many, many requests for information on license sales. People request summaries of sales by county, and for all license types. They request information on license sales trends. This requires a great deal of staff time to meet these data requests. We are working to upload most, if not all, license sales data to the Department*s web-site so that interested persons may have easy access to all data of interest. This will be only raw numbers and sales trends. No personal information on individual licensees will be released.

Business Rules and Agent Training

We are examining all of our business rules for license sales and simplifying these to enhance customer service. Unnecessary obstacles to license sales will be eliminated. We will revise the Agent *License Issuing Handbook* to reflect these changes, and we will convert the handbook to an easier-to-read format.

Hunting and Trapping Regulations Guide

We have started an *A to Z* overhaul of the annual Guide with the intention of eliminating confusing or complex material. Whenever possible, we will use diagrams or photographs to illustrate the laws and regulations. We are hoping to convert to a magazine format, but at the very least, we will add pages to the Guide to allow the use of more visual material and to include program updates.


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Rich (Doctari),are you suggesting that beyond a better system for the collection of data no other changes are worth considering?
If herd health and habitat health is not negatively effected would it be wrong to implement things that are likely to provide a greater level of satisfaction to all hunters?
If a Boone and Crocket class buck and a spike horn were standing side by side which one do you think Teddy R. would shoot?Would he be a heathen for doing something that brought him greater satisfaction?
I believe that the one buck limit(all seasons) shorter firearms season (no more than one week)mandatory check stations and mandatory reporting or you don't get next years tag are worth considering.

Themost common arguments I see against AR are "the hunter should have a choice what to shoot" "We are deer hunters, not trophy hunters" "I hunt for meat, not horns" I can understand and respectthese viewpoints. However, if we take it in that context, then theargument for 3" AR dosn't apply either.

The history of the 3" law is interesting, but we are talking about the future and not the past. Its a tradition based onthe facts at that time, yes, but that was a much differnet time. You even stated yourself its based on conditions of the early 1900's.The herd was long ago restored and managing the herd has longreplaced expantion of the herd. I don't understand where I "re-wrote" history...but some in NYare trying to change the future. History of NY hunting means nothing on this argument except traditon. Off course I don't advocate shooting 2" spikes. I simply played DA to make a point.

Call me a fibber, but I have seen bucks w/ sub-legal antlers that I could have shot. I know other that have too.

Idon't see where I was being insulting with my posts. I certainly didn't mean too. I aologize if some read it that way, I am just trying to inject some thought into the argument. However, your post above has comments such as "Duh!" and you call me selfish, pathetic and ignorant. So please, check yourself as well. I derserve as much respect as anyone here.

So it would be safe to assume that you and all the other advocates of mandatoryAR never shoot a deer younger then 4 1/2? Anything younger is a still growing, immature, prime breeder so anyone truly concerned with the "health" of the herd would never shoot one of these.

Another thing - if, as you say, all hunters should only shoot "mature" deer - aka 4 1/2 or older, again for the "health" of the herd, how can you possibly say and supportstatewide as in the following? Because in central and western NY, approx 60% of 1 1/2 are 6 pt or better.
By 3 1/2, I would guess the overwhelming majority would be 6 or better but still not fully mature. How can you support shooting only mature deer and promote a management strategy that would target the best of the immature bucks?