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-   -   NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions? (https://www.huntingnet.com/forum/northeast/118612-ny-do-u-think-we-should-have-antler-restrictions.html)

jcchartboy 11-16-2005 07:38 PM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 

Steve said:
Phades answer is that thebio data is but one very small part of the consideration of mandatory AR

Phade said:
Steve has it nailed.
So then it is final...
You both agree that biological data is in fact relevant to AR...

This is exactly what I said in the first place, and the reason I posted the original article.

I am glad we have that straightened out.

:)



SteveBNy 11-16-2005 08:06 PM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 
Relevant - possibly, but still a small part of the consideration.

I believe we both suggested some other things to consider as well - many at least if not more important.

Still waiting to hear how protecting spikes and forks while targeting young 6 or better helps the herd.

Also waiting on what the official and legal definition of a "TROPHY" will be. Right now sounds like a 80 class 1 1/2 6 point may be it.

jcchartboy 11-16-2005 08:21 PM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 

Perhaps you have other data thatdemonstrateshow targeting and increasing the pressure on the 60% or higher of 1 1/2 NY deer with 6 pts or better will be benefit anything?
Obviously your implication here is that protectingyearlings with less than 6pts will result in relatively more of these "inferior" bucks in the overall herd.

Or put another way...6pt or higher bucks are genetically superior and you think they should be protected because they are more likely to produce larger racks at maturity.

If this what is you believe, (forgive me if this is not what you are saying), then you should at least be aware that there is an enormous amount of biological data that does not agree with that belief. (I am not saying whether it is right or wrong, only that you should be aware of it)

Here is the general findings of the survey discussed below, however I do recommend that one reads the whole article before coming to any conclusions...


After three years of age yearlings that started with spikes averaged just as many points as yearlings that had many more points on their first set of antlers. There are minor differences in the average number of antler points as three-year-olds, but basically there appear to be no real differences no matter the number of points a yearling started with.


By Ben Koerth and Dr. James Kroll
Quality Deer Management Association[/align]







Advances in capture techniques allowed researchers to study antler development in wild whitetail populations.
"There he goes!" was the cry as the buck ran across the road into a narrow clearing on the other side. Hard behind the buck the helicopter swooped in low and fast over the brush, followed by the clear boom of a gunshot in the morning air. Literally within seconds of that first sighting, the buck was down and being loaded by eager hands into the back of a pickup truck.


No, despite your first thoughts, this is not a tale of illegal hunting. Rather, it's an introduction to an important research study we are conducting on antler growth in wild whitetails. The gunshot was not a normal gunshot. Rather, it was from a specialized gun that shoots a net instead of a bullet. Combined with a helicopter to rapidly find and approach a deer, we can quickly and precisely capture individual deer for marking and measuring before releasing it unharmed at the capture site — all very important aspects of the study described herein.


The basis for the study is an age-old controversy that has, so far, evaded being solved by even the best whitetail biologists in the country.


Future antler growth of whitetail deer that have spike antlers as yearlings versus yearlings with three or more points as their first set of antlers, has been a particular point of contention among deer hunters and managers for many years. Results of various studies on captive whitetails have produced recommendations ranging from removing all spike-antlered yearlings as inferior individuals to complete protection of all yearling deer no matter the amount of antler growth in their first year. Inferior, in this case, refers to an animal that has less potential for future antler growth than other members of the same age group do.


In trying to grow the highest quality animals, only the animals believed to have the greatest potential for good antler production are desired. If an antler type with low growth potential can be identified at an early age, intuitively it would seem a good idea to remove those animals before they make a substantial contribution to the breeding population. The genetics for poor-quality antlers would not be sustained in the population. The question is, can this really be done?








The net gun method of capture allows safe handling and easy release of animals.
Over the years, numerous studies have been conducted on the predictability of antler growth in whitetails. Results of the two most well known studies seem to conflict. Studies at the Kerr Wildlife Management Area by Texas Parks and Wildlife Department personnel suggested that spikes on yearling whitetails may be an antler type with low potential for antler growth at maturity. Thus, their recommendation is to cull spikes as a management tool to increase average antler size of bucks in that age group as they grow.


At the other end of the spectrum is a well-known study done by Dr. Harry Jacobson at Mississippi State University. Dr. Jacobson asserted spike antlers on yearling bucks could be related to many factors including age (when during the fawning season a deer is born) and nutrition. Results of the Mississippi State study indicate spike antlers could not be used reliably to judge antler growth potential. Therefore, culling of yearling bucks based on antler criteria would have little positive impact on average antler quality in the future deer herd and would simply result in fewer bucks available for hunting.


A primary drawback in both studies is that they were conducted with captive deer. It often is difficult to take results from confined animals with a known history and fed a high-quality diet and apply those results to animals born and raised under a wide variety of range and management conditions. Research similar to that conducted on captive deer needs to be done on a larger scale with free-ranging deer populations similar to the ones we hunt.


While that sounds great on paper, studies of this nature are not easy. One of the biggest problems in studying free-ranging deer is being able to positively identify a large number of known-age animals. Also, you have to be able to handle the animals in a manner where measurements can be taken from the same deer from one year to the next. Believe me, that is no easy task.








Buck Y-23 as a spike at 1 1/2 years old. Researchers wanted to know what size antlers he would produce in coming years.
The net gun method allows easy and safe handling of animals after they are entangled in the net. Once the animals are captured, we affix a color-coded ear tag that is individually numbered. The color of the tag tells us instantly the age of that deer when seen again in the future. We also tattoo a number corresponding to the ear tag on the inside of the ear in case the ear tag is lost. Antler measurements can be taken quickly and the animals released unharmed at the capture site. In a nutshell, that is the study and the methods we are using to accomplish this task.


By its nature, this is going to be a very long-term study. A large number of yearling bucks have to be captured so we can measure their first set of antlers. In just three years, we have captured and tagged 444 bucks over a three county area in South Texas. These same bucks will need to be repeatedly trapped in future years to measure the antler growth. Also, we are capturing new bucks each year along with recapturing bucks caught in previous years. In this way, we will have a sample of animals that are born and raised in different years in a variety of weather and range conditions.


At this point, we are only three years into the project. As such, we are not in a position to make positive conclusions about anything. The point of this article is to introduce the research so you can see what we have found so far and be able follow along as the study progresses.








On the right, buck Y-23 visits a feeder as a 10-point, 3 1/2 year old deer.
However, even with the short time period so far, some interesting trends are being revealed. Whether these trends hold throughout the remainder of the study remains to be seen. Nonetheless, these initial results may give you something to think about next hunting season.


For many hunters, one of the most important criteria in antler quality is the number of points. So let's look at the development of antler points from the yearling bucks we have captured and how they progress through various ages.


From our data, if you plot the number of antler points bucks had as yearlings against the average number of points those same bucks had the next year you will see that the yearlings with the fewest antler points still had fewer points as 2-year-olds. Yearlings with two or three points on their first set of antlers averaged about eight points as 2-year-olds. On the other end of the spectrum, yearlings with eight or nine points on their first set of antlers were 10-pointers on average the next year.


The middle group, yearlings with four to seven points, averaged about nine points the next year. On the surface this appears to support the contention that spike-antlered deer may be inferior and on average will never produce the kind of antlers that multi-pointed yearlings will.








At 1 1/2 years old, buck Y-34 produced six points.
However, remember these are really young deer with a lot of growing left to do. Another way of looking at the data is to compare the amount of growth each group put into antlers their second season.


If you plot the number of antler points that bucks had as yearlings against the percent of antler growth change in their second set of antlers, there appears to be somewhat of a different story.


The little guys were kicking butt by the next year. Much more energy appeared to be expended toward growing larger antlers by yearlings that started small. A yearling that starts with nine points and goes to 10 the next year is a small change. However, going from a spike to an 8-pointer is a tremendous change.


Still, a 10-pointer is better than an 8-pointer, right? If a yearling started with spikes or three points and only averaged about eight points the next year, that's still smaller than yearlings that started with eight or nine points and averaged 10 points on their second set of antlers. It doesn't matter how much energy they put into antler growth if they're still smaller. Is there some credence to the claim that small-antlered yearlings will never be as good as yearlings that start with a better set of antlers?


Let's fast-forward to year three and compare the average antler points those same yearlings had on their third set of antlers. If you plot the number of antler points that bucks had as yearlings against the average number of points those same bucks had as three-year-olds you will see that the yearlings with few antler points have caught up. Yearlings that started with spikes averaged just as many points as yearlings that had many more points on their first set of antlers. There are minor differences in the average number of antler points as three-year-olds, but basically there appear to be no real differences no matter the number of points a yearling started with.








At 2 1/2 years old, buck Y-34 had grown nine antler points.
By the third year, data from our wild-trapped bucks seems to agree more with the results of Dr. Jacobson and the Mississippi State study. Yearling bucks with small antlers seemed to have just as good a chance of turning into a good deer by their third year as the yearlings with larger antlers did.


Now, we realize there is much more than simply the number of points that make a high-quality set of antlers. However, this indicates the trends in the data we have seen to this point. As we stated earlier, this study is still in progress and the final results may lead us in a totally different direction. However, our results in the study so far show there is no indication that the size of antlers on yearling deer is a good predictor of what a buck might grow in the future if allowed to mature.


Some other interesting aspects from the study we have found so far are that the number of spikes in a herd varies from year to year and can be affected tremendously by weather conditions ‹ specifically rainfall. This is especially true in drought-prone areas like south Texas. Comparing data between years on the number of spikes and 3 pointers on a single ranch where we captured bucks is quite revealing. In 2000, 23 percent of the yearling bucks were spikes. If you add in 3-pointers, 33 percent of the yearling age class had three points or less. While not a great rainfall year, it certainly was better than the next year.


In 2001, with even less rainfall, 53 percent of the yearling bucks were spikes. Again, if you add in 3-pointers, 64 percent of the yearling age class had three points or less. The number of spikes and 3 pointers essentially doubled in one year. The genetics didn't change in one year, but the average antler quality of yearling bucks sure did. If you were in a program that culled spikes and 3 pointers as inferior deer, you would have lost nearly two-thirds of that age class in the low rainfall year. Think of how many bucks that would leave you to hunt in a few years.








At 3 1/2 years old, buck Y-34 was caught on film and had produced a 10-point rack.
However, we don't want to lead you to believe that we think culling is not a worthwhile management practice. We still contend you can change the average antler quality of a well-managed deer herd by culling bucks with inferior antler quality.


However, results of this study so far support our long-standing contention that culling should be done only on the older age classes of bucks ‹ never on the yearlings. Young bucks, especially yearlings, are just too sensitive to weather and growing conditions to give you a good idea of the kind of antlers they are capable of growing in future years.


Also, an effective culling strategy not only involves removing bucks with perceived inferior antler quality, but also includes removal of females. An adequate doe harvest allows you to control the overall population, manipulate the age structure and remove the less productive females from the herd. In the long run, there really is only a need for enough females to produce the annual crop of bucks and replacement females. Usually, this is far fewer females than many think.


Early in a management program, we feel you should remove the older age does. This results in an immediate reduction of the population and significantly lowers the average age of females left in the herd. Also, younger does usually produce fewer fawns, so maintaining control of the population is not as difficult in the future.


As time goes on, having a young doe age structure allows you to better take advantage of improving nutritional conditions and overall genetic makeup of the remaining herd. If you have been doing a good job of culling bucks, the younger does are the ones most likely to have been conceived by the higher antler quality bucks you have left to breed. Thus, the offspring potentially have higher genetic quality than their parents and are more likely to pass on those quality genetics to their offspring.


There are few issues that have created more controversy than the culling of spikes. While we still do not have the definitive answer, results of our study should increase our understanding of antler growth in free-ranging whitetails. At this point, it appears that culling of yearling deer, no matter what they produce as their first set of antlers, may not be a good idea.




jcchartboy 11-16-2005 08:23 PM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 

ORIGINAL: SteveBNy
Still waiting to hear how protecting spikes and forks while targeting young 6 or better helps the herd.

Also waiting on what the official and legal definition of a "TROPHY" will be. Right now sounds like a 80 class 1 1/2 6 point may be it.
Who were you discussing that with?

Phade 11-17-2005 06:04 AM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 

ORIGINAL: jcchartboy


Steve said:
Phades answer is that thebio data is but one very small part of the consideration of mandatory AR

Phade said:
Steve has it nailed.
So then it is final...
You both agree that biological data is in fact relevant to AR...

This is exactly what I said in the first place, and the reason I posted the original article.

I am glad we have that straightened out.

:)


It's relevant AFTER you answer the social question. Until then, it's just numbers on paper.

You quote QDMA like you belong to it, and are pretty involved. That's all you spout. And unfortunately, it is too bad you can't disconnect yourself from it to look objectively. It's like me spouting info on why cigarettes are good for youfrom a study done by Phillip Morris. It just does not carry any power.

That info you just posted above doesn't do anything for me. Theidea thay they have similar growth (although inarguably they are smaller-both articles state that), the AR rules won't allow those spike or forks to get to 3 years old at any higher rate than what we have now. They'll still be shot on site as soon as they'd be legal, certainly by 2.5 y/o. And I hasten to believe they'll be shot more often because of the AR, since that buck can be legally taken.

I think you should either state a position or step out of this thread. Your devil's advocate action is worthless, unneeded, and it is not your responsibility to just randomly insert "bio info" into any issue you are not involved in. I personally, think it was a poor character move, and really changed my opinion on you from your previous posts.

jcchartboy 11-17-2005 03:58 PM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 

Phade said:
It's relevantAFTER you answer the social question..(in reference to the biological data I provided)
The fact that it is relevant... is, and has been... my position from the first post I made in this thread. I made that very clearly with the the following statement...


JC said:
Relevant reading for anyone interested in this subject...
Ialso considered responding to your last paragraph. After reading it a few times I realized itsimply did not deserve a response. This boardencounters enough issues without posts of that nature, that I will not add to the problems.

Phade 11-17-2005 05:03 PM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 

ORIGINAL: jcchartboy


Phade said:
It's relevantAFTER you answer the social question..(in reference to the biological data I provided)
The fact that it is relevant... is, and has been... my position from the first post I made in this thread. I made that very clearly with the the following statement...


JC said:
Relevant reading for anyone interested in this subject...
Ialso considered responding to your last paragraph. After reading it a few times I realized itsimply did not deserve a response. This boardencounters enough issues without posts of that nature, that I will not add to the problems.
That's funny. Re-read your first post to thesource in this thread, and your random statement about politics. Seems like you have a history of doing what you claim to be the problem. At least that is what I can see from recent postings. That's a completely objective view, not an "issue" as you like to call them.

As far as your "position," it is clearly a devil's advocate role here. The thread is about whether AR should be for NY. You glue yourself to that "relevant" point, and nothing else. I honestly inquire as to your thought on AR in NY, as the thread states? Or do you wish to continue this off-topic banter? I prefer the former.

And I really like your misquote of me. Try to not infer statements out of my words that aren't there. I said that info is relevant AFTER the social question is answered. Until then, it's only numbers on paper. MEANING, it is NOT relevant until after the social question is answered. Understand the difference? It cannot be "always has been relevant" until after the laws/regulations have been addressed on what a trophy is. I don't see why you can't understand that. Like I said, until you, the state, and the rest of our sportsmen and women decide on what a trophy is, then and only then will those numbers become relevant bio data. Before that, its as worthless as used toilet paper, and not relevant.

jcchartboy 11-17-2005 05:07 PM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 
The state of Pennsylvania struggled with many of the issues we are discussing here before they moved to the decision on AR. Their biologists spent a great deal of time reviewing scientific information to base their decisions on. Here is the summation of their findings concerning protecting spike and forked antler yearlings, and its possible effects on future harvests...


PA State Biologists Summation...

Protecting yearling bucks with fewer than 3 or 4 points to an antler will degrade antlers of future bucks.
This statement relates to how well a yearling buck's antlers represent the quality of the buck's genes. Research from Mississippi and Texas - where most antler research has occurred - differ. Results from Mississippi State University suggest that yearling antler points provide little information about the genetics of a buck. On the other hand, research from the Kerr Wildlife Management Area in Texas suggests that yearling antler points do reflect the genetic quality of a buck.
An independent review by an animal breeding and genetics expert concluded that problems existed with the data used by both states and, therefore, that no strong evidence exists for either conclusion. Despite the important role of a buck's mother in his antler characteristics, neither the Mississippi nor Texas results have provided valid estimates of maternal effects on antler growth. Studies specifically designed to evaluate maternal effects are needed. Also the Texas data include high levels of inbreeding - no new deer have been introduced to the deer pens since the 1970s -and many of the deer are related to one buck, "Big Charlie."
A recent review of the scientific literature on genetics in hunted populations concluded that there is little evidence available to suggest that hunting, including selective harvests, has long-term genetic consequences. One reason for this conclusion is the combination of genetics and harvest regulations apparently diminish suspected negative impacts. For example, if antler restrictions did selectively harvest "better" bucks, antlerless harvests are generally nonselective in their removal of "better" or "poorer" does. Thus, a continued mixing of "better" and "poorer" genes throughout the deer herd reduces the amount of change.
We do know that genetics is just one of many factors that determine the number of points on a yearling buck. A buck's mother and her genes, nutrition, health and other factors affect antler points. All these factors create a situation where there is no strong evidence that the new antler restriction will hurt or improve genetics of Pennsylvania's deer herd.

Phade 11-17-2005 05:17 PM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 
I'm speechless. Another randomly inserted bit of info. Except this one goes in circles.

That TX study history is odd, because TX has AR is 15+ counties, and they do not use the 3 point per side rule. They harvest wider than the ears bucks, and bucks with at least one unbranched antler. Everything in between is off limits.

But again, more random info, and no thoughts or positions.

jcchartboy 11-17-2005 05:51 PM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 
If you can not understand the document perhaps you should reread it.

Why you are referencing the specifics of antler restrictions in Texas while refering to the article above I am not clear.All of the deer discussed in the artcicle have been located in an enclosed research facility that has been inisolated for over 30 yrs.

If you can not understand how the information provided relates directly to antler restriction, (remember this document came from the PA game commision website that is titled DEER MANAGEMENT PROGRAM and ANTLER RESTRICTIONS), then perhaps you need reconsider your understanding of AR.

I will send you a PM directly to adress the nature of your posts...

JC

jcchartboy 11-17-2005 06:18 PM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 

Like I said, until you, the state, and the rest of our sportsmen and women decide on what a trophy is, then and only then will those numbers become relevant bio data. Before that, its as worthless as used toilet paper, and not relevant.
I am happy that you state your opinion. You have every right to hold one on the subject regardless of what you base it on.

Unfortunately, your opinion is nothing more than that, an opinion.

This board was created so members could share the information they thought was relevant to a specific subject matters with the goal of creating more informed knowledgable hunters.

As long as each post pertains to the subject matter, and contains information that futhers the original discussion that is all that matters.



AJ52 11-17-2005 06:44 PM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 
Some good points made back on page 2,3 or maybe 4 ??.

I see this going nowhere but ending up as a knock down drag out flame war.

Lets stop the posturing and get to the point of "topic".

Phade 11-17-2005 07:13 PM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 

ORIGINAL: jcchartboy

I really have no interest in debating AR.
JC
Thanks for finally changing your intent and giving some reason.

Phade 11-17-2005 07:17 PM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 

ORIGINAL: SteveBNy


Phade,

So, obviously your answer is NO.

You do not believe the biologically data is relevant. Thank you for making that clear.
JC - I think Phades answer is that thebio data is but one very small part of the consideration of mandatory AR (especially based on point restrictions only)for NY.
The only deer protected and allowed to grow older underpoint based AR are spikes and forks who are either late born 1 1/2 or bad genetics. No protection at all for baskets and other YOUNG deer. I have not read everything on real QDM programs, but I find it hard to believe any there are anythat promote the taking of basket 8 points, and any other YOUNG deer( those under 4 1/2).
Perhaps you have other data thatdemonstrateshow targeting and increasing the pressure on the 60% or higher of 1 1/2 NY deer with 6 pts or better will be benefit anything? Or that (example) 90 class 2 1/2 are "trophies"?i
What about the rest of his arguement (ones I strongly agree with) against points based AR for NY? Again - WHAT is a TROPHY, and who gets to decide?
Steve

Steve
As far as asking you earlier, I figured since Steve asked you about this, I wouldn't have to. Again, at least we are on track with some legit direction. You did not respond. BUt now we are on topic, and its done with.

I suggest a good look at the TX based studies. They've had the longest time span of studies going on, and would have better long term results to look at.

mikeg29 12-20-2005 05:43 PM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 
This is hard to answer,here in PA. the bucks are alot bigger in antler and body size, but you "DON'T SEE AS MANY DEER." I myself hate the fact that deer just aren't out there as they were 5 years ago before this happened here.Not saying any names but the guy that came up with this "antler restriction" quit his job this past year WHY??? ANTLER RESTRICTIONS BIG BIG BIG MISTAKE!!!! DON'T AGREE AT ALL..

PAFlintLock 12-20-2005 09:27 PM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 
Antler restrictions are in the 4th year in PA, and these are the results that I have noticed thus far. For the record I hunt more than anyone that I know and have spent a lot of time researching and studying deer in the field for over 30+ years. My observations are as follows: #1 I see 30-40 different bucks per year and I see more sub-ordinate bucks now than ever. I believe that the inferior gene pool is being allowed to become more prevalent! I thought it was a good thing to weed out the scrub bucks. #2 I see many spikes, 4-6, and small 8 pointers and expect to see more nice racks the next year and this just hasn’t happened! #3 Hunting license sales are declining every year because the casual hunter, who can only get out a day or two, or the guy who doesn’t give a darn about the size of the rack, don't buy a license. The out of state hunters don't appreciate it either. Now with fewer licenses being sold and a bloated budget to supply, the inevitable increase of a license fees is about to happen again. A healthy increase!! This will only help decrease license sales even more. #4 You don't know how many points that moving buck has and they usually won't stop to let you count them! Many nice 4,5&6 pointers have been found left to rot over the past 4 years because now they were illegal kills, OOPS!

Allow me to make the choice as to what buck I shoot or don't shoot!

sproulman 12-21-2005 05:24 PM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 
we have 3 point on i side restriction here in paand we like it very much.big bucks are being shot BUT the slobs are ruining the program. what is happening is ,the adults are shooting the spikes and under 3 point to side bucks if they have kids along.kids are exempt.question is ,what is kid learning if the adults shoot the deer and say, kid, put your tag on it. the talk around is ,when you have kids with you, ITS BROWN AND ITS DOWN.even the ones that are going by the rules are getting screwed with slobs shooting anything that is brown.i seen many kids in trucks with heaters on while adults were in woods hunting. i feel it should have been 3 points rule for all,including kids.otherwise the slobs are going to continue to not look at the 3 points and just shoot and tag deer with kids tag. i believe this is happening more than we are aware of.

sproulman 12-21-2005 05:34 PM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 
i guess we all see things different..we like the 3 point rule very much.no one i talk to is complainig.we DONT see many spikes ,most are 3 point or 4 point . problem we are having is SLOBS that are using the kids to shoot the little bucks.maybe that is why i am not seeing many little bucks.i hunted and in woods daily..this program is good on antler restriction but if SLOBS continue to kill little bucks and put kids tag on it, its not going to work.also we are NOT HEARING or finding any small bucks left to rot in woods, not 1 report. people who dont like this are coming up with every excuse to stop it.you have that right.hope you dont think i am being critical but only what i am seeing and what most are telling me here in,2g wmu.

ww874 12-21-2005 07:32 PM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 
I hunt in NY and PA. I don't want AR in NY. I have been hunting in PA way before AR in PA. I initially was for AR but having spent many many hours in the woods I do not believe they have worked as advertised. I hunt 3b in PA and have noticed a decline in the quality of bucks since AR. I agree with Steve about everyone shooting young 6s and 8s and as a result they are not growing up.
Also I spoke to an offical state processor who also felt as I did before AR were implemented and now also agrees with me.
I also have no doubt many guys are not counting points (because its practically impossible to see a brow tine from anywhere beyond 25 yards), so they are shooting.After its down if it has 3 points on one side its "to the butcher" and if it doesn'tthen its "over the hill".

tsoc 12-21-2005 09:32 PM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 
I am for antler restrictions. I live in Ulster county and live and hunt extensively in one of the test units.I am not looking for agreement from others nor disaproval.I don't like killing small bucks,it doesn't present a challenge to me and with the doe to buck ratio being what it is I feel it is far more responsible to kill doe's in most of the area's where I hunt.I do agree with others in that in general our herd numbers are way down and the management permits need to be drastically cut back as well as those god awful nuisance permits that farmers get.(slaughter permits)
Killing a mature doe is more challenging than killing a naive 1 1/2 year old buck and they provide just as much or more meat and there are a lot more of them.What is the down side?

SteveBNy 12-22-2005 05:34 AM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 
The down sides of points based AR:

1. You are putting increased pressure on the 60% of 1 1/2 year old bucks that are 6 pt or better pretty much wiping out the cream of the crop every year.

2. You are setting the bar very low that any 6 pt or better is now a trophy - that means all the 1 1/2 yo above or the 2 1/2 yo that are now 6 or better, are trophy's and targets. Doesn't matter that they may only be a 70 class. All are still young deer far from maturaty and there potential. I am in no way a trophy hunter, but if I was, please explain to me how legally targeting the best of the young bucks could possibly be productive


3. You say shoot a doe instead. Works only if you get a permit - ina lot of areas, manyhunters did not get one. Couple years of this and not being able to shoot a buck unless it is a trophy 1 1/2 70 class(:)) and our numbers could drop furthur.

4. NY sold around 600,000 big game tags this year. The majority of these hunters probably hunt just a few days per season. They like the tradition of getting together with family and friends. They hope to see some deer and maybe get the chance to take one - many do not, but still want the opportunity. If they shoot a spike, then the young 6 point AR would have them target gets a walk and maybe lives. Then they leave the woods for those of us that perhaps more dedicated. But they are every bit as important as the serious hunter and have as much right to their methods as you and I.

We need to ENCOURAGE all hunters to remain and recruit for our future or there may not be one. Our future does not lay with the trophy hunt depicted on saturday television hunts.

Want bigger deer? LET ALL THE YOUNG ONES WALK. And educate others to do the same. Don't set the bar legally at a 70class and chase other hunters from the woods. Definition of "TROPHY" should be left to the individual.
JMO
Steve



Phade 12-22-2005 08:27 AM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 

ORIGINAL: tsoc

I am for antler restrictions. I live in Ulster county and live and hunt extensively in one of the test units.I am not looking for agreement from others nor disaproval.I don't like killing small bucks,it doesn't present a challenge to me and with the doe to buck ratio being what it is I feel it is far more responsible to kill doe's in most of the area's where I hunt.I do agree with others in that in general our herd numbers are way down and the management permits need to be drastically cut back as well as those god awful nuisance permits that farmers get.(slaughter permits)
Killing a mature doe is more challenging than killing a naive 1 1/2 year old buck and they provide just as much or more meat and there are a lot more of them.What is the down side?
For me, there is still one point that NY has to get over. Who are we to determine what a trophy is to other hunters?

That's your BIG downside right there.

Then, the biological issues/comparisons can begin.


jf5 12-22-2005 11:36 AM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 
Well, I think that they are a goiod idea. I hardly think the change puts more pressure on the larger bucks. Some guys will shoot any legal buck they can, and if they only see spikes under A/R then they go deerless. Its just a matter of what they see first.

I and many others don't see AR as "trophy hunting". So many here seem to have a chipon their shoulder about "trophy hunters" ruining it for everyone.If you go tocamps in Sask or Ill, that have a true trophy restriction, they willhold off on bucks under say 130class.Trophy QDM and AR's are not the same. AR's a chance to allow at least SOME male deer to get by there first season. It does help increase the age structure of bucks. The only way to implement some restriction in state likeNY is too allow a hunter to count points on one side. Its not perfect, and yes, some promissing young bucks will be taken. But they have just as much chance to be taken without A/R.

Another thing I would like to add is a spike rule IS AN A/R!! 3" spikes to be legal is just as much an anter restriction as any. And if you want to get into "why should other hunters determine what a trophy is for others" Then why not doaway with the 3" rule and let the hunter shoot whatever he wants?? Button buck, doe ,spike, etc???

Phade 12-22-2005 12:02 PM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 

ORIGINAL: jf5

Well, I think that they are a goiod idea. I hardly think the change puts more pressure on the larger bucks. Some guys will shoot any legal buck they can, and if they only see spikes under A/R then they go deerless. Its just a matter of what they see first.

I and many others don't see AR as "trophy hunting". So many here seem to have a chipon their shoulder about "trophy hunters" ruining it for everyone.If you go tocamps in Sask or Ill, that have a true trophy restriction, they willhold off on bucks under say 130class.Trophy QDM and AR's are not the same. AR's a chance to allow at least SOME male deer to get by there first season. It does help increase the age structure of bucks. The only way to implement some restriction in state likeNY is too allow a hunter to count points on one side. Its not perfect, and yes, some promissing young bucks will be taken. But they have just as much chance to be taken without A/R.

Another thing I would like to add is a spike rule IS AN A/R!! 3" spikes to be legal is just as much an anter restriction as any. And if you want to get into "why should other hunters determine what a trophy is for others" Then why not doaway with the 3" rule and let the hunter shoot whatever he wants?? Button buck, doe ,spike, etc???
The 3" spike ordeal is not A/R. It has a long history in NY, and purpose.

And you can shoot whatever you want if you have the tags. How is that confusing?


jf5 12-22-2005 12:10 PM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 

ORIGINAL: Phade


ORIGINAL: jf5

Well, I think that they are a goiod idea. I hardly think the change puts more pressure on the larger bucks. Some guys will shoot any legal buck they can, and if they only see spikes under A/R then they go deerless. Its just a matter of what they see first.

I and many others don't see AR as "trophy hunting". So many here seem to have a chipon their shoulder about "trophy hunters" ruining it for everyone.If you go tocamps in Sask or Ill, that have a true trophy restriction, they willhold off on bucks under say 130class.Trophy QDM and AR's are not the same. AR's a chance to allow at least SOME male deer to get by there first season. It does help increase the age structure of bucks. The only way to implement some restriction in state likeNY is too allow a hunter to count points on one side. Its not perfect, and yes, some promissing young bucks will be taken. But they have just as much chance to be taken without A/R.

Another thing I would like to add is a spike rule IS AN A/R!! 3" spikes to be legal is just as much an anter restriction as any. And if you want to get into "why should other hunters determine what a trophy is for others" Then why not doaway with the 3" rule and let the hunter shoot whatever he wants?? Button buck, doe ,spike, etc???
The 3" spike ordeal is not A/R. It has a long history in NY, and purpose.

And you can shoot whatever you want if you have the tags. How is that confusing?

It is an A/R. It requires a certian amouint of antler to be legal.

Nothing confusing. A tag to take antlerless deer does not come automatic with your purchase of a hunting license like a buck tag. You have to apply seperatlyand be chosen. They are also restrictedby numbers and applicable to certainareasby the agencies, which buck tags are not.

Phade 12-22-2005 12:56 PM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 

ORIGINAL: jf5


ORIGINAL: Phade


ORIGINAL: jf5

Well, I think that they are a goiod idea. I hardly think the change puts more pressure on the larger bucks. Some guys will shoot any legal buck they can, and if they only see spikes under A/R then they go deerless. Its just a matter of what they see first.

I and many others don't see AR as "trophy hunting". So many here seem to have a chipon their shoulder about "trophy hunters" ruining it for everyone.If you go tocamps in Sask or Ill, that have a true trophy restriction, they willhold off on bucks under say 130class.Trophy QDM and AR's are not the same. AR's a chance to allow at least SOME male deer to get by there first season. It does help increase the age structure of bucks. The only way to implement some restriction in state likeNY is too allow a hunter to count points on one side. Its not perfect, and yes, some promissing young bucks will be taken. But they have just as much chance to be taken without A/R.

Another thing I would like to add is a spike rule IS AN A/R!! 3" spikes to be legal is just as much an anter restriction as any. And if you want to get into "why should other hunters determine what a trophy is for others" Then why not doaway with the 3" rule and let the hunter shoot whatever he wants?? Button buck, doe ,spike, etc???
The 3" spike ordeal is not A/R. It has a long history in NY, and purpose.

And you can shoot whatever you want if you have the tags. How is that confusing?

It is an A/R. It requires a certian amouint of antler to be legal.

Nothing confusing. A tag to take antlerless deer does not come automatic with your purchase of a hunting license like a buck tag. You have to apply seperatlyand be chosen. They are also restrictedby numbers and applicable to certainareasby the agencies, which buck tags are not.
Do you know why they enacted that rule to begin with?

SteveBNy 12-22-2005 04:38 PM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 

AR's a chance to allow at least SOME male deer to get by there first season. It does help increase the age structure of bucks.
It allows the late born 1 1/2 spikes and forks and the few genetically inferior deer to live. The added pressure on the best potential 1 1/2 virtually assures that class to be wiped out.


The only way to implement some restriction in state likeNY is too allow a hunter to count points on one side. Its not perfect, and yes, some promissing young bucks will be taken. But they have just as much chance to be taken without A/R.
See above - not some promising young bucks, but MOST promising young bucks will be taken. Without points based AR, someone can shoot a spike or fork if they see one and a 6 point would then get a walk.

As I said before - if YOU want bigger deer, then YOU must not shoot ANY YOUNG bucks and encourage others to follow.Set your own personal goal and let others do the same.

Steve

jf5 12-22-2005 04:53 PM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 

ORIGINAL: SteveBNy


AR's a chance to allow at least SOME male deer to get by there first season. It does help increase the age structure of bucks.
It allows the late born 1 1/2 spikes and forks and the few genetically inferior deer to live. The added pressure on the best potential 1 1/2 virtually assures that class to be wiped out.


The only way to implement some restriction in state likeNY is too allow a hunter to count points on one side. Its not perfect, and yes, some promissing young bucks will be taken. But they have just as much chance to be taken without A/R.
See above - not some promising young bucks, but MOST promising young bucks will be taken. Without points based AR, someone can shoot a spike or fork if they see one and a 6 point would then get a walk.

As I said before - if YOU want bigger deer, then YOU must not shoot ANY YOUNG bucks and encourage others to follow.Set your own personal goal and let others do the same.

Steve
I disagree, since I don't think it will put muchmore pressure on the legal 1.5 YO any more than if A/R's are not in effect.I also don't agree that ALLlate born spikes or small forks are genetically inferior.There are allot of other factors that come into play with antler development.It also hasn't been discussed as to what AR would apply. 2, 3, or 4 points a side?? Thats another thing to think about if you areconcerned that the genetically superior 1.5 YO get shot off.

To me,the bottom line is it will allow more bucks in general to make it past their first hunting season.

But hey, I am beating a dead horse here. Good luck and be safe out there guys. I am done...

Phade 12-22-2005 04:56 PM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 
Steve,

People don't understand the hygrating (high grading) concept here. Many QDM and state biologists believe in this in regards to A/R.

I can only imagine what these types of threads will be like come May or June.

That's one reason I'm thankful this season seems to have been "slow" to a ton of hunters. They'll be less likely to want to limit the deer they can harvet any further.

SteveBNy 12-22-2005 05:14 PM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 
Phade - I know - probably the 5th time I've presented this recently. Those who acknowledge my arguement have never tried to refute it. The others ignore it because they can't refute. Like you, I think this spring will be interesting. Seems to be a perception something needs to be fixed that isn't really broke!

Looked in BassPro today for your artcle - no go. Any suggestions?

Happy holidays
Steve

Phade 12-22-2005 05:48 PM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 

ORIGINAL: SteveBNy

Phade - I know - probably the 5th time I've presented this recently. Those who acknowledge my arguement have never tried to refute it. The others ignore it because they can't refute. Like you, I think this spring will be interesting. Seems to be a perception something needs to be fixed that isn't really broke!

Looked in BassPro today for your artcle - no go. Any suggestions?

Happy holidays
Steve
There is a team in MS that is working on hygration studies in Arkansas I believe. They are concluding that the upper echelon of bucks don't make it (A/R implemented), and it is causing an average 19 inches of antler to be lost in mature deer in the state. That is a ton.

I'm not sure where Quality Whitetails is on the stands. I'll have to ask Lindsay.

Got an article coming up in D&DH in the June issue.

tsoc 12-22-2005 08:46 PM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 
I don't want to get involved in any p---ing match with any one.I expressed my opinion and I stand by it!There was one comment I had read about not every one receiving a management permit.I was considering all seasons not just rifle,archery and muzzleloader are either sex seasons.
I am not blasting any one for their opinion and I respect their right to kill what ever the game laws allow.I personally choose not to kill small bucks,and while I respect someone's right to do so I do wonder why they would choose to when doe's are so much more plentiful.

Phade 12-22-2005 08:53 PM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 

ORIGINAL: tsoc

I don't want to get involved in any p---ing match with any one.I expressed my opinion and I stand by it!There was one comment I had read about not every one receiving a management permit.I was considering all seasons not just rifle,archery and muzzleloader are either sex seasons.
I am not blasting any one for their opinion and I respect their right to kill what ever the game laws allow.I personally choose not to kill small bucks,and while I respect someone's right to do so I do wonder why they would choose to when doe's are so much more plentiful.
My 5pt that I took in archery is a trophy to me. I worked hard for the chance to harvest him.

Do you think you have the right to say I shouldn't be able to harvest it?

I think you are on the right page TS, it's a personal choice for all citizens. Not an issue for amandate from the state.





jf5 12-23-2005 08:38 AM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 

ORIGINAL: Phade


ORIGINAL: tsoc

I don't want to get involved in any p---ing match with any one.I expressed my opinion and I stand by it!There was one comment I had read about not every one receiving a management permit.I was considering all seasons not just rifle,archery and muzzleloader are either sex seasons.
I am not blasting any one for their opinion and I respect their right to kill what ever the game laws allow.I personally choose not to kill small bucks,and while I respect someone's right to do so I do wonder why they would choose to when doe's are so much more plentiful.
My 5pt that I took in archery is a trophy to me. I worked hard for the chance to harvest him.

Do you think you have the right to say I shouldn't be able to harvest it?

I think you are on the right page TS, it's a personal choice for all citizens. Not an issue for amandate from the state.




Glad you are happy with your Deer Phade. Congrats. Any deer with a bow is a nice one. Understand,I don't think anyone is trying to dictate what a trophy is to another. Its deeper than that.

Any pics of your deer? Would love to see it...

Phade 12-23-2005 10:19 AM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 

ORIGINAL: jf5


ORIGINAL: Phade


ORIGINAL: tsoc

I don't want to get involved in any p---ing match with any one.I expressed my opinion and I stand by it!There was one comment I had read about not every one receiving a management permit.I was considering all seasons not just rifle,archery and muzzleloader are either sex seasons.
I am not blasting any one for their opinion and I respect their right to kill what ever the game laws allow.I personally choose not to kill small bucks,and while I respect someone's right to do so I do wonder why they would choose to when doe's are so much more plentiful.
My 5pt that I took in archery is a trophy to me. I worked hard for the chance to harvest him.

Do you think you have the right to say I shouldn't be able to harvest it?

I think you are on the right page TS, it's a personal choice for all citizens. Not an issue for amandate from the state.




Glad you are happy with your Deer Phade. Congrats. Any deer with a bow is a nice one. Understand,I don't think anyone is trying to dictate what a trophy is to another. Its deeper than that.

Any pics of your deer? Would love to see it...
Thanks, I posted a thread about it in October. I'll have to search for it here.

But that is ultimately my point. It isn't deeper than that. A/R is completely dictating what a trophy is to another...

Yeah, there is biology involved later on in the discussion, but we have to get over the hump of dictating to NY's hunters what a trophy is to them.

Had A/R been enacted when I was out bowhunting that day, I'd have went buckless this year. There was not enough time for me to judge his 3rd point on one side. It was done and over with in less than 10 seconds...

I couldn't look at another hunter (who for sake of example shot a forkhorn) who was darn proud of the work he put into the hunt, and was relishing in the reward of his labor...and tell him that he shouldn't be able to harvest that deer.

jf5 12-23-2005 11:54 AM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 

ORIGINAL: Phade


ORIGINAL: jf5


ORIGINAL: Phade


ORIGINAL: tsoc

I don't want to get involved in any p---ing match with any one.I expressed my opinion and I stand by it!There was one comment I had read about not every one receiving a management permit.I was considering all seasons not just rifle,archery and muzzleloader are either sex seasons.
I am not blasting any one for their opinion and I respect their right to kill what ever the game laws allow.I personally choose not to kill small bucks,and while I respect someone's right to do so I do wonder why they would choose to when doe's are so much more plentiful.
My 5pt that I took in archery is a trophy to me. I worked hard for the chance to harvest him.

Do you think you have the right to say I shouldn't be able to harvest it?

I think you are on the right page TS, it's a personal choice for all citizens. Not an issue for amandate from the state.




Glad you are happy with your Deer Phade. Congrats. Any deer with a bow is a nice one. Understand,I don't think anyone is trying to dictate what a trophy is to another. Its deeper than that.

Any pics of your deer? Would love to see it...
Thanks, I posted a thread about it in October. I'll have to search for it here.

But that is ultimately my point. It isn't deeper than that. A/R is completely dictating what a trophy is to another...

Yeah, there is biology involved later on in the discussion, but we have to get over the hump of dictating to NY's hunters what a trophy is to them.

Had A/R been enacted when I was out bowhunting that day, I'd have went buckless this year. There was not enough time for me to judge his 3rd point on one side. It was done and over with in less than 10 seconds...

I couldn't look at another hunter (who for sake of example shot a forkhorn) who was darn proud of the work he put into the hunt, and was relishing in the reward of his labor...and tell him that he shouldn't be able to harvest that deer.

I'll take a look at the deer. Congrats again.

Thats it though Phade. You guys associate AR with "trophy" restrictions. Thats not what its about at all for most. I knowyour mind is made up. But here it goes. ( and I know I said I was done..sorry) ;)LOL

Here we have a 12" size limit on Largemouth bass, it used to be 10".If a guy catches his first bass and its 10" should I let him keep it?? To his eyes that fish could mean the world to him. A true trophy is in the eye of the beholder, yes. But those restrictions are there for a reason. A 12" legal basslimit wasn't made by hawg hunters because they think a 12+" bass is a trophy and want to dictate that to others. Its just a limit to set harvests by to benefit the stocks, and have more adult fish live longer.

I know guys who have hunted years and think any deeris a trophy because they havenever got one.Should theyget automatic tags with their license to take any deerin anyzone just because they boughtone?? Should they be allowed to shoot a fawn or doe in any zone automatically because that deer means the world to them?? The limitations are there for a reason. Why not up it a notch?? A small AR still leaves allot of deer open to be taken.

I am not a trophy hunter at all. I shot abuck thisyear that would not be legal in most counties in PA. It was my first buck in this state ina long, long time, and is a trophy to me. I'll still takesmall bucks as long as its legal in any state and plan to do so in NY too. But these types of restrictions would prevent me and others from doing so.And I still support it because I feel the herd will benefit in the long run.I know it was my choice to shoot, but if I pass,nothing prevents the others from taking my littlebuck.

My friend in PA has been reporting the results of AR to me for the past few years, and I gotta say I am impressed with the results. He has hunted PA for 30+ years and is so happy about the results.

I do admire your feelings for the common hunter. I am one of them and know how it feels to take ANY buck. Please believe that. I just think these things can improve the herd structure and benefit all hunters in the long run...

Thanks for listening...

Maybe I'll see ya inthe NY woods sometime.

Happy Holidays

tsoc 12-23-2005 01:50 PM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 
Very well stated jf5! My comments were not directed at any one person specifically(in this case Phade)they were general comments expressing my opinion.I do not attack people verbally unless attacked by them.It serves no purpose.I am a hunter and this forum is a communtiy of hunters who seemingly for the most part are some pretty fine people.
There is an expression that" if you do what you always have done you will get what you have always got"
Why was it so hard for you Phade to kill that buck you killed?You have every right to be proud of your kill(I would say harvest but there are some people on this forum that think you are a mary if you don't say kill)I bet you worked darn hard to put yourself in a position to kill him and then you "closed the deal".In my area of NYS it is hard to kill any buck much less a 2 1/2 year old or older.The reason that is is because there are so few of them.Because of my interest and committment, personally I could kill young 1 1/2 year old bucks every year if I chose to.I choose not to,because of that myself and others have had the opportunity to kill some bucks that other wise would have already been taken a year or two prior.
In our area of NYS the casual hunter stands very little chance at killing a big buck and possibly it is for the same reason it was so challenging to kill the 5 pointer that Phade shot.
Others have made the argument that by implementing anything that restricts the killing of younger bucks you are making it easier to kill bigger bucks.That of course to a degree is true.I think it would be a better conclusion to say it makes it possible to kill big bucks versus next to impossible given the current management philosophies.(At least in my area of the state).Big bucks are never easy to kill,and I say that from my experience of hunting every year out of state in an area where there are plenty of big bucks.
Antler restrictions are not the only way to accomplish having a broader age class of bucks,to date it is the only one that has been proposed.Other possibilities are a one buck a year limitation,one tag only that is an either sex tag,shortening our firearms seasons dramatically.Look at where the biggest bucks in our state are being killed,it is in the bow only zones.The shot gun area's produce consistently bigger bucks than the rifle area's.There are other legitimate ways to accomplish having a more balanced buck population.(I am expecting to be bashed by those who think the natural order of any mammal population to be other than one to one,where 85% of the females bred are bred by adolescents)Save your breath I will never be convinced that that is the way it is supposed to be!!
I think one of the root aspects of the problem is that no one is willing to give,to sacrifice at all,to attempt something different!It would be perfectly fine with me if there was a moritorium on killing any bucks for two years,we would have some gagger bucks if we did that.
They are killing some huge bucks in PA,if they were better in PA with the amount of management permits that were allowed I don't believe you would be hearing all the negative things that you have.
Sorry for the long post! Phade,a sincere congratulations on your kill!I know how hard it can be to be successful.
Merry Christmas!
Scot

Phade 12-23-2005 04:40 PM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 
I give up.:D

Merry Christmas to both of ya's. And thanks for the congrats.

tsoc 12-23-2005 09:11 PM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 
Merry Christmas to you and yours!

AndesNY2 12-25-2005 11:49 AM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 
I know I'm a little late to jump on this post but I had to way in. Let's face it, NY's deer population in many parts of the state is way down especially in the Catskill region where I hunt as a result of many factors (ie. excessive DMP's, increase predation, habitat reduction due to mature growth foreston statelands, etc.). Antler restiction will help overall hunter satisfaction byincreasing the number of opportunitiesfor hunters that not only want venison but a nice set of antlers as well. I know and understand the argument, that a 1 1/2 yr old deer could havemin of three points per sideand thereforehave better than average genetic potential but that will be more the exception than the rule.Not withstanding mandating hunters practice Quality deer management, which would be extremely difficult to implement, antler restrictions are theone of the bestways to increase the average age of our buck population. Let's just learn from the mistakes of PAby notwiping out the doe populationwith too many DMP's.


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