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-   -   NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions? (https://www.huntingnet.com/forum/northeast/118612-ny-do-u-think-we-should-have-antler-restrictions.html)

jcchartboy 11-05-2005 04:06 PM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 

ORIGINAL: Chasam60

I am a little put out over the defeat of the early muzzleloader season in the southern zone.The bow hunters in New York are a very organized group,obviously with a lot of political clout in Albany.I have nothing against bowhunting as a sport,but when you can hunt with a bow from 27Sep to 31Dec.and claim that giving up 7 days hunting time to muzzleloaders,will seriously harm your chances,it just makes me wonder.
Charlie
You weren't the only one...unfortunately that is why it is called politics.

thesource 11-05-2005 05:11 PM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 
Here's an idea - instead of complaining how much time bowhunters have in the woods - you could buy a bow and join us!

jcchartboy 11-05-2005 05:31 PM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 
Source,

Here is an idea....

Stop trying to infering what other people are saying.

You post directly implies I was complaining.

Where do you come up with that?

nybowhunter 11-06-2005 05:13 AM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 
In the Southern zone arhcery is from Oct 15 to Nov 18. Then we get a week after shotgun which I never use. It's not much time for us weekend warriors with a family. That's only 5 weekends! If I didn't have family obligations today, I'd be in the woods. I am all for antler restriction during gun only because archery is much harder than gun is. The other reason is that thereisa smaller population of bow hunters out there.Now take the number of guys that actually get one, it's a small number of bucks killed. I don't see this being a huge impact on the bucks. Maybe it's different in the North, but in the South most of the guys I know that archery hunt do not get a deer. We have 10 bowhunters (ages 17 to 75) that hunt the property I hunt on. So far this year, one guy has an 8 point. I've been hunting archery for 6 years now and I've gotten 1 buck. Thisis not uncommon for a bow hunter. On the other side, I've gotten plenty of deerduring gun! Why because it's a hell of a lot easier! By the way, Iuse a muzzle loader during gun too, just to make it a little more challenging!

We have an antlerrule at our camp. Only shoot 2-1/2 year oldbucks or older, butshoot the does. Some of usthat don't get out very often during archery or haven't gotten many deer with the bow are exempt. Also the old guys and kids are exempt too. All of us have noticed a big improvement in the quality of bucks and we have only been doing this for 4 years. Also, it's only 100 acres of private property.

superflyhunter 11-09-2005 05:29 PM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 
Hell no if its brown its down. Unless its albino... In that case if its white its down...

arlow 11-09-2005 05:35 PM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 
I would love to see AR's in NY as well as my home state. They would make things difficult for a couple of years but once things begin tobalance out there will be more big bucks to hunt and that is a big plus in my book.
An added bonus is that you are forced to watch deer that you may have shot in the past. When you just watch you learn a lot about behaviour.

HandB274234 11-09-2005 07:48 PM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 
NO NO NO! We just dont have big enough deer at an abundent rate in some parts of NY, this is not IOWA ya know!

Charlie P 11-13-2005 10:03 AM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 
Charlie, Binghamton eh? I'm from Vestal.

RMQ 11-13-2005 11:46 AM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 
I want meat in my freezer before I worry about antlers on the wall. With the decreased number of deer in my area; and the rapid decline in hunter numbers; the last thing we need are antler restrictions; Thats my opinion. Finding quality hunting land is getting harder and harder to come by; finding the time to hunt, and the money spent involved; I see absolutley no positives from antler restrictions. A guy who can hunt 1 or 2 weekends a year has to pass on a spike buck for some "trophy" hunters desire is rediculous. You can pass up that spike if you want; but don't tell me I have to also; especially when I'm Bow or Muzzleloader hunting. If you want to impose something; lets impose a bounty on Coyotes.
Just my opinion.

nybowhunter 11-14-2005 04:34 AM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 
I'm with ya RMQ! Let's not forget the premium price we pay to hunt in this wonderful state!

Charlie P 11-14-2005 07:10 AM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 
Premium price? I can't take my wife and kids out for dinner and a movie for what it costs to hunt and fish in NYS for a year.

jf5 11-14-2005 08:42 AM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 

ORIGINAL: RMQ

I want meat in my freezer before I worry about antlers on the wall. With the decreased number of deer in my area;
Why not soot does then if meat is all you want?

Charlie P 11-14-2005 09:18 AM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 
Jf5, Let's say like this year my back has been giving me trouble so I haven't been in the woods. I have until friday to hunt I go out and I have an oppurtunity at a nice 4 pt to put in the freezer, I feel it should be my personal choice not yours or the goverments if I take the shot.

Hunting originally was about putting meat in the freezer why not keep it that way?



SteveBNy 11-14-2005 09:27 AM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 

Why not soot does then if meat is all you want?
I take it you meant shoot a doe:D

I agree with Charley 100%

Also how about the guy who does not draw a doe permit? He is supposed to pass on a 4pt so it can grow for the "trophy" hunter". You know the hunter who soots an 80 class 1 1/2 year old trophy.

Its obvious you have not read or choose to ignore all the other arguements against AR (ESPECIALLY those based on points alone) so let me ask you this.
If all you want is bigger horns, why don't you just buy a rack from a farm? Or have a replica made. Why does a "trophy" hunter in search of a "better" (whatever that means) buck have to infringe on everyone else's hunting?

Steve

Charlie P 11-14-2005 10:28 AM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 

Why does a "trophy" hunter in search of a "better" (whatever that means) buck have to infringe on everyone else's hunting?

Exactly, I started to get into hunting mature deer for the challenge. AR, BTW have nothing to do with mature deer. Well many of these buck were killed by cars not hunters. After having this happen and getting all bummed out about it, I just started hunting for the fun of it again. You want to kill a 6 pt that's 1.5 yrs old because it makes a three pt on a side rule great. Just don't infringe on my right to kill a 4 pt that's 1.5 yrs old.

I really believe that the more hunting becomes about the size of the rack instead of the hunt the easier it will be for us to loose our ability to hunt.

RMQ 11-14-2005 10:42 AM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 
I don't know how your deer population is where you hunt; but here our numbers are way down; so I'd rather put a fat spike or 4pt in the freezer before a Doe. As for the premium price to hunt in NY; I own my house and Land; and the amount of taxes I pay is a premium price; some of the highest taxes and highest paid senators in the nation. I guess your gonna say - sell my land and hunt public land right? Well New York State in its infinite wisdom has just "re-forested" over 600 acres of state land that was leveled by a tornado a few years ago; they planted thousands of Pine trees; This land was originally 80% hardwoods - oak, beech... and apple orchards; are you telling me they have their priorities right about provideing adequate environment for deer? what are they spending all of the conservation money on?I don't trust the state to make quality decisions about a sport i love when they screw things up constantly.
We both have the same number of tags and hunting seasons; you shoot what you want; and I'll shoot what I want. If you ask me, antler restrictions are just one more way to divide hunters, drive some huntersout of the sport and make it easier for the anti's. Big bucks don't get kids in the woods, Quality experiences do. If you love hunting because of big racks, you love hunting for the wrong reasons in my opinion; theres a lot more to it.

Charlie P 11-14-2005 10:57 AM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 

Big bucks don't get kids in the woods, Quality experiences do.
Ding ding ding we have a winner.:DI'll be taking my 7 yr old daughter out of school early today. One of the guys I share hunting land with put up a two man tree stand and she saw it yesterday when we went for a walk. She informed me that it would be really nice of me to take her out like I did her brother and show me how to hunt. He'll be in his climber down the ridge.

jf5 11-14-2005 11:51 AM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 

ORIGINAL: SteveBNy


Why not soot does then if meat is all you want?
I take it you meant shoot a doe:D

I agree with Charley 100%

Also how about the guy who does not draw a doe permit? He is supposed to pass on a 4pt so it can grow for the "trophy" hunter". You know the hunter who soots an 80 class 1 1/2 year old trophy.

Its obvious you have not read or choose to ignore all the other arguements against AR (ESPECIALLY those based on points alone) so let me ask you this.
If all you want is bigger horns, why don't you just buy a rack from a farm? Or have a replica made. Why does a "trophy" hunter in search of a "better" (whatever that means) buck have to infringe on everyone else's hunting?

Steve
Woah!! Easy guys. All I was doing is making a suggestion. From what I understand, its pretty easy to get a permit for does in most of NY outside of ADK and other low density areas. Regardless,some of us don't see AR as for the "trophy hunter", we see it as a way to balance the buck to doe ratio and herd age classfor a healthier herd all together. Once that balance is obtained, the AR's can come off.

We all know a 1.5 YO deer can have a rack from spike to 8 point. But a two point side(or whatever AR applies) would be the only way for a hutner to qualify. However, we all know that most (not all) spike bucks are young deer. Having them live another year benefits all, and will benefit the meat hunter in the long run too.

One could argue that if hunting is only for meat and to "keep it that way" Then why have any game laws??Right?

Off course we have game laws for a reason.Additonal laws to help the herd in the long run could be beneficial to ALL hunters and the deer, as well as for other species of animals.

Just my 2 cents. Keep safe out there.







SteveBNy 11-14-2005 12:03 PM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 
Sorry if I jumped - your statement is one used repeatedly by the seekers of "better horn" and I thought that was your position.

Studies have shown 60% or better of the 1 1/2 bucks are 6 or better. By protecting the 4 pt and smaller, you shift the pressure to the 60% that are either better genes or older by a month or 2. This pressure will pretty much wipe out most of this class. Plus you protect the spikes and forks that will always be spikes and forks. Also, the chance of AR coming off once in place I believe would be slim.

I am in 7j and did not get a permit as did many others here and other areas.

You can balance the herd without point restrictions if needed - I just have not seen the need demonstrated other than by trophy hunters.

Take care
Steve

Charlie P 11-14-2005 12:11 PM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 

One could argue that if hunting is only for meat and to "keep it that way" Then why have any game laws??Right?
Honestly no.

jf5 11-14-2005 02:17 PM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 
Thanks for hearing me out guys.I know its a hot subject.You guys have great hunting in your state!!

Take Care

Phade 11-14-2005 02:38 PM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 

ORIGINAL: jf5

However, we all know that most (not all) spike bucks are young deer. Having them live another year benefits all...
Show me that biology?






jcchartboy 11-14-2005 04:09 PM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 
Relevant reading for anyone interested in this subject...


Spikes: Wanted dead or alive?
New information in an old debate has not changed the bottom line for most deer hunters: Given conditions in most of the whitetail's range, it is rarely advisable to target spike bucks for harvest[/align]By Lindsay Thomas Jr.[/align]Quality Deer Management Association[/align][/align]






There is virtually no difference between a forkhorn's and spike's antler size when they reach full maturity.[/align]
The debate surrounding spike bucks goes on within the deer research community: Is a spike a product of a poor-quality environment or poor genetics? Hunters follow the debate, seeking assurance one way or the other as they establish harvest guidelines and herd goals. As research continues to produce conflicting answers to what seems a simple question, hunters find themselves revisiting an issue once thought to be closed.


This happened for many Quality Whitetails readers in the December 2003 issue, when Dr. Mickey Hellickson of the King Ranch in Texas weighed in on the spike question for "Whitetail Wisdom." (Quality Whitetails is the journal of the Quality Deer Management Association or QDMA).


Mickey presented preliminary data from an ongoing study of free-ranging whitetails in south Texas that he is conducting along with Drs. David Hewitt and Fred Bryant of the Caeser Kleberg Wildlife Research Institute at Texas A&M University-Kingsville.


Compared by gross Boone & Crockett score, spike-antlered yearlings in the study are not catching up to fork-antlered yearlings. Though at 5 1/2 years of age the spikes are producing antlers that would please the majority of North American deer hunters (an average of 125 gross B&C), the fork-antlered yearlings are achieving greater heights (an average of 146 gross B&C). Some readers who thought the question had been settled by previous research wondered if they were now being told to put the crosshairs on spikes.


The quick answer: No.


There will never be one answer to this question that is applicable to every set of conditions found in the whitetail's range.


For a few hunters, harvesting spike bucks may improve deer-herd conditions. For most hunters, it will not. The latter group is by far more numerous given the present condition of most whitetail herds in North America, and this article will hopefully help readers identify where they fit.


If hunters in Eastern states followed the example of other regions such as Texas on the spike question and worsened their situation instead of improving it, they would not be the first. Dr. Dave Guynn, professor of forest wildlife management at Clemson University in South Carolina, recalls how impressed he and other biologists were with the results that Al Brothers was getting in Texas in the 1970s. At the time there was almost no research on sound deer management techniques, and Al Brothers offered the first model.


"We came back to the Eastern states thinking that what we needed to do was shoot all of our spikes like they were doing in Texas," said Dave. "But because of nutritional problems and skewed sex ratios, most of our yearling bucks were spikes. When we hammered them, we were doing just the opposite of what we needed to do."








Generally, what we've seen is that [spike-antlered yearlings] stay a little behind [forkhorns] up to the 4 1/2-year-old age class, and they pretty well close the gap at that time.



Dr. Harry Jacobson
Mississippi State University



The factors that lead to a prevalence of spike-antlered yearling bucks in a deer herd are many, and they interact in complex relationships that change across geographic areas. In an article in the August 2004 issue of Quality Whitetails, John Ozoga outlined many of the conditions that produce spike bucks.


They include the quality and quantity of available nutrition, which limit body and antler growth. Sex ratio is another crucial factor. When does outnumber bucks, some does may not be bred on their first or even second estrous cycle, and late-born fawns are the result.


These fawns get a late start their first year and are still lagging behind their early-born counterparts as yearlings. These and other factors interact with fluctuating conditions beyond a deer manager's control, such as climate and rainfall. The Texas managers who so impressed Dave and other biologists had already addressed factors like nutrition, sex ratio and age structure before targeting spike bucks in the harvest.


The crux of the debate between most recent studies centers on whether or not spike bucks can close the gap in antler production with same-age bucks that started with forked antlers. Research by Dr. Harry Jacobson with captive whitetails at Mississippi State University from 1978 through 1995 suggested little difference between spikes and fork-antlered yearlings that were given time to mature.


"Basically, by the time they were 7 1/2 there wasn't any difference between spikes and forkhorns," said Harry. "Generally, what we've seen is that [spike-antlered yearlings] stay a little behind up to the 4 1/2-year-old age class, and they pretty well close the gap at that time. There was a little bit of a difference in B&C scores on out until 7 1/2, but the difference was miniscule for the average deer hunter. Once a deer gets to 125 inches, it's a pretty good deer for the average deer hunter."


Another ongoing study on the spike question is being conducted in south Texas by Dr. James Kroll and Ben Koerth of the Institute for White-tailed Deer Management and Research at Stephen F. Austin State University. The study of free-ranging whitetails is in its seventh field season. James is waiting until completion of the eighth season to release data or definitive statements of findings, but he says that so far his results are similar to the Mississippi State study.


"Our sample size is now substantial to say the least," said James, "and what we are seeing right now is those differences [between spikes and fork-antlered yearlings] go away. We just finished analyzing the seventh year's data, and we're not seeing a difference at maturity."








If you see a spike and you shoot him, you definitely won't see him again and nobody else will either. If you don't shoot him, he might make it.



Dr. Dave Guynn, professor of forest wildlife management at Clemson University


Like James Kroll and Ben Koerth's study, the research of Mickey Hellickson and his co-investigators is being conducted on free-ranging whitetails in south Texas on lands of varying management regimes. Mickey said that preliminary analysis of the data shows, on average, spikes are not closing the gap in gross score with bucks that started as fork-antlered yearlings.


"On average, fork-antlered yearlings are larger than spike-antlered yearlings in gross B&C score. They don't catch up," said Mickey. "Those two words, 'on average,' are the key, because there are exceptions," he said, "but in population management, your goal should always be to manage on the averages, not on the exceptions."


Though it may take time for researchers to reconcile the finer distinctions in the data, on one thing they seem to agree.


"There's only a handful of places in the world where culling is a true issue," said James Kroll, "but, it gets press. If our research came out to show that spikes are the scourge of the earth, I would still not recommend [shooting spikes] to most people."


"Five years ago, I was a strong proponent for not shooting spikes," said Mickey. "But I'm focusing on the scientific question, 'Are spikes inferior?' On average it's pretty clear. I think they are. The question, and it will remain after our study, is how applicable this research is to other places. Outside of south Texas, there are very, very few places where I would recommend shooting spikes. There are so many other things to focus on first that will have a much greater impact on your herd than will shooting spikes. People focus on the spike issue to the detriment of other management efforts, and it's a hindrance."


Under what scenario would most experts recommend shooting spikes? The criteria are strict enough that most hunters, particularly in the Eastern United States, can easily rule themselves out. Some experts, like Harry Jacobson, find it difficult to describe any situation in which they would encourage spike harvest. Other experts set high standards before supporting spike harvest.


Essentially, hunters should be able to say that they have addressed all other herd factors that can be managed before considering the removal of spiked yearlings. This means that natural vegetation and supplemental food plots are managed year-round for optimum forage quality and availability. Adult sex ratios are balanced, herd density is within the habitat's supporting capacity, and buck age structure has been improved by protecting immature bucks from harvest. The acreage under management is large and highly controlled, whether one property or several in a cooperative. Finally, the goals of the hunters on this area are focused on maximizing opportunities for mature bucks with high-scoring antlers.


What's interesting about this scenario is that the hunters amid conditions like these, in most areas of the country with good whitetail habitat, may see a reduction in the number of spikes observed. The improvements in nutrition, sex ratio and age structure have already reduced many of the controllable factors that create a prevalence of spike bucks.


"The first thing you're going to have to do is take care of the nutrition problems, and then take care of the sex ratio. Maybe one-and-a-half to two does per buck is realistic," said Dave Guynn. "But you're going to have to have some age structure, some older bucks in there, too. If you did that over a period of time, you would probably get fewer spikes anyway. But you have to protect those yearlings. Those yearling spikes may be good deer, they may have just been born late."


As an example of private land in the Eastern United States where the taking of spikes might be beneficial, Dave pointed to the Banks Farm in Morgan County, Georgia (see "The Banks Farm Way," Quality Whitetails, December 2003).


Once all of the more important management concerns have been met, as they have in a program like the Banks Farm, deer managers would be at a level similar to programs in south Texas where spike harvest may be advisable. It is important to note, however, that spikes are not harvested on the Banks Farm. As a final step in their program, after more than a decade under QDM, Banks Farm hunters began taking a few bucks with low potential, but they give a buck until at least 3 1/2 or 4 1/2 years of age before passing judgement.


Hunters on small acreages, especially those surrounded by properties where quality deer management is not practiced, should not consider harvesting spikes.


"Under those conditions, you can't manage your deer very well," said Dave. "One thing's for sure, if you see a spike and you shoot him, you definitely won't see him again and nobody else will either. If you don't shoot him, he might make it."


Throughout the Eastern United States, hunters face whitetail populations that are often beyond the carrying capacity of their habitat. Due to the timing of hunting seasons and traditional harvests that exact large tolls on yearling bucks, sex ratios and buck age structure leave much to be desired in most areas.


Breeding and therefore fawn birthdates are scattered over extended periods, and these conditions set the stage for higher numbers of yearling spikes. The solution is not to target the spikes but to deal with the conditions that produced them. Once a deer manager has documented success in all of these areas and is looking for the final step, then the harvest of yearling spikes can be considered...


...maybe.

SteveBNy 11-14-2005 04:26 PM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 
So we should let the spikes walk and wipe out the 6 pt and better 1 1/2 class? Cause that is a probable result of AR based on points here in central NY.

Phade 11-15-2005 06:49 AM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 
JCC-

Lindsayis coming from that conclusion for QDM.

AR professes this for a different reason. AR would still prevent the large majority of those spikes seeing their 4 1/2 year.

Just think about the very basic theology behind it. Say you put up the 3 per side rule. The first season goes by, and said hunter is skunked. He saw a spike or two but had to pass. Next year comes by, one of the spikes end up showing up under his stand, sporting a 5pt rack. You think that hunter is going to pass him to let him "catch up" with the superior gene bucks? I'd think not. Why? Because it is already hard enough to shoot a buck (or a doe for that matter), and making it even harder with the 3 per side rule...Almost every normal, non-trophy hunter (which I believe make up the very large majority of the hunting population) will harvest that buck.

Not harveting bucks makes complete biological sense for QDM, but it does nothing or very littlefor AR.

People seem to think AR=QDM. That's completely wrong.

Phade 11-15-2005 06:55 AM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 

ORIGINAL: SteveBNy

So we should let the spikes walk and wipe out the 6 pt and better 1 1/2 class? Cause that is a probable result of AR based on points here in central NY.
Steve,

What you are talking about is a kind of hygration. It was the term escaping me earlier. Biologists and QDM backers are really starting to look into this problem. That's why harvesting inferior gene bucks are really being stressed lately under QDM plans.

jcchartboy 11-15-2005 04:30 PM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 

ORIGINAL: Phade
People seem to think AR=QDM.
Phade,
The article I posted was for informational purposes only. Neither myself nor the article made any claim that AR=QDM.

The only information I gathered from the article that directly correlates to the area we are talking about (NY), is the following....


Essentially, hunters should be able to say that they have addressed all other herd factors that can be managed before considering the removal of spiked yearlings. This means that natural vegetation and supplemental food plots are managed year-round for optimum forage quality and availability. Adult sex ratios are balanced, herd density is within the habitat's supporting capacity, and buck age structure has been improved by protecting immature bucks from harvest. The acreage under management is large and highly controlled, whether one property or several in a cooperative. Finally, the goals of the hunters on this area are focused on maximizing opportunities for mature bucks with high-scoring antlers.

This is the authors opinion as it pertains to growing high scoring bucks. That opinion is based on all the available biologic information he has reviewed. Itis obviously relevant informationto considerwhen debating the topic of AR.

I really have no interest in debating AR. I was simply trying to provide some some relevant information to others that are interested in debating the issue.

JC

Phade 11-15-2005 05:40 PM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 

ORIGINAL: jcchartboy


ORIGINAL: Phade
People seem to think AR=QDM.
Phade,
The article I posted was for informational purposes only. Neither myself nor the article made any claim that AR=QDM.

The only information I gathered from the article that directly correlates to the area we are talking about (NY), is the following....


Essentially, hunters should be able to say that they have addressed all other herd factors that can be managed before considering the removal of spiked yearlings. This means that natural vegetation and supplemental food plots are managed year-round for optimum forage quality and availability. Adult sex ratios are balanced, herd density is within the habitat's supporting capacity, and buck age structure has been improved by protecting immature bucks from harvest. The acreage under management is large and highly controlled, whether one property or several in a cooperative. Finally, the goals of the hunters on this area are focused on maximizing opportunities for mature bucks with high-scoring antlers.

This is the authors opinion as it pertains to growing high scoring bucks. That opinion is based on all the available biologic information he has reviewed. Itis obviously relevant informationto considerwhen debating the topic of AR.

I really have no interest in debating AR. I was simply trying to provide some some relevant information to others that are interested in debating the issue.

JC
QDM and AR have two different goals. The information Lindsay provided was related to QDM practices. He is well respected in my circle, but AR has a different voice in NY right now. Looking at AR froma QDM perspective, and from the one NY hunters will be facing, leads to two very different conclusions, and their reasons for doing so.





jcchartboy 11-15-2005 06:04 PM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 

JC said:
I was simply trying to provide some relevant information to others that are interested in debating the issue.
Regardless of whether Lindsay specializes in QDM, much of the information he discusses is still relative to the discussion of AR.

Phade 11-16-2005 06:32 AM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 

ORIGINAL: jcchartboy


JC said:
I was simply trying to provide some relevant information to others that are interested in debating the issue.
Regardless of whether Lindsay specializes in QDM, much of the information he discusses is still relative to the discussion of AR.
Not at all in NY's case.

That question is what is a trophy to all hunters, and what right is there to say who can shoot what.

bhw 11-16-2005 06:44 AM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 
I'm restricted now, because I'm seeing NO RACKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

jcchartboy 11-16-2005 04:26 PM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 

ORIGINAL: Phade


ORIGINAL: jcchartboy
I was simply trying to provide some relevant information to others that are interested in debating the issue.

Regardless of whether Lindsay specializes in QDM, much of the information he discusses is still relative to the discussion of AR.
Not at all in NY's case.
That question is what is a trophy to all hunters, and what right is there to say who can shoot what.
So you are saying that the biologicaldata that Lindsay presents has no relevance to the discussion of antler restrictions in New York?

Phade 11-16-2005 05:03 PM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 

ORIGINAL: jcchartboy


ORIGINAL: Phade


ORIGINAL: jcchartboy
I was simply trying to provide some relevant information to others that are interested in debating the issue.

Regardless of whether Lindsay specializes in QDM, much of the information he discusses is still relative to the discussion of AR.
Not at all in NY's case.
That question is what is a trophy to all hunters, and what right is there to say who can shoot what.
So you are saying that the biologicaldata that Lindsay presents has no relevance to the discussion of antler restrictions in New York?
The relevance to our situation is two fold. The AR backers claim biological reasons, and better quality hunting. In reality, they clearly mean trophy hunting. The've either had the chance to grow as hunter over their years, or they are the new-age trophy hunter. Both are doing this push for personal, and very greedy purposes.

The important question remains to be seen is that who can honestly limit what antoher person calls a trophy. The AR pushers always say, shoot a doe then. Well to be honest, that is BS. Nobody really challenges the idea of harvesting does anymore as much as it once was.

However, I am not above someone who only gets out a time or two, and only has the opportunity to shoot a small buck. They'll be hella proud of it. And that is before any biological considerations.If you are comfortable with stating that you should be able to force another hunter into not shootingwhat is a trophy to him, then you can push the biological data. Prior to that, the relevancedoes nottread water.High-grading (hygration)the middle class bucks really sucks the wad.

AR is a practical implement under QDM. It works under a QDM practice to perfection if there is enough acreage. On a large scale, as soon as the bucks become legal, they are dead under flat AR state mandates. There's no 3.5 or 4.5 yr old requirement, or even a plan to harvest poor quality bucks in AR.

Under AR a spike is the exact same as a forkhorn. Technically, there is no difference because they cannot be harvested. So if you state a spike shouldnt be shot, then neither should a forkhorn. It is simply a delay of the inevitable, and a continuation for deer to pass on inferior genes. That article clearly states therelevance of shooting spikes when relating to a QDM standard. Under AR, there is no standard other than 3 points per side.

Not to mention, the AR factor on the elderly, children, and new hunters. Charles A. has stated he is against AR in D&DH a couple years back because of this.

#1. The deal with NY allowing 17 yr old and under being exempt from the AR is hogwash. Why, because it is borderline illegal, and it'll be challenged pretty quickly in the courts I believe.

#2. I'd be a pissed off man if pops (hypocthetical)is on his last season and is forced to pass a spike or forkhorn because of this lame law. Denying him or her that chance is merely a slap in the face. He was an integral part of the wildlife management for years, and now his season goes by empty because of this law. That is a sad way to go out I think.

#3. New, older hunters get the tube of vaseline with this law. They are not young enough to be exempt, and therefore they have to pass on small bucks (which are much more likely to happen by before an mature one). How many times do you think it'll take before the person says screw this, and gives up the sport? There's an element of challenge in hunting, but I can't say the future would be enticed by having to wait for a mature buck (even if the AR pushers say it'll make mature bucks more common-which is another debate).

On a side note, IF I was ever to go with an AR proposal. It would not be this one. Rather it would be the TX version. Two bucks per season limit. One must have an inside spread of 13 inches (basically beyond the ears), and the other must have at least one unbranched antler (one spike). Everything else in between, is a "do not shoot buck."

jcchartboy 11-16-2005 05:41 PM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 

So you are saying that the biologicaldata that Lindsay presents has no relevance to the discussion of antler restrictions in New York?
Phade,

So, obviously your answer is NO.

You do not believe the biologically data is relevant. Thank you for making that clear.





Phade 11-16-2005 05:43 PM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 

ORIGINAL: jcchartboy


So you are saying that the biologicaldata that Lindsay presents has no relevance to the discussion of antler restrictions in New York?
Phade,

So, obviously your answer is NO.

You do not believe the biologically data is relevant. Thank you for making that clear.




Until the state and the sportsmen and women can decide on the who can shoot what deal, NOPE. After if they mandate it, yes. It'll be sickening to see the first part happen.

Phade 11-16-2005 05:48 PM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 

ORIGINAL: jcchartboy


The only information I gathered from the article that directly correlates to the area we are talking about (NY), is the following....


Essentially, hunters should be able to say that they have addressed all other herd factors that can be managed before considering the removal of spiked yearlings. This means that natural vegetation and supplemental food plots are managed year-round for optimum forage quality and availability. Adult sex ratios are balanced, herd density is within the habitat's supporting capacity, and buck age structure has been improved by protecting immature bucks from harvest. The acreage under management is large and highly controlled, whether one property or several in a cooperative. Finally, the goals of the hunters on this area are focused on maximizing opportunities for mature bucks with high-scoring antlers.

This is the authors opinion as it pertains to growing high scoring bucks. That opinion is based on all the available biologic information he has reviewed. Itis obviously relevant informationto considerwhen debating the topic of AR.

I really have no interest in debating AR. I was simply trying to provide some some relevant information to others that are interested in debating the issue.

JC
JCC-

That's my whole point. That article is not relevant to spike harvest regarding AR. You even stated it yourself. It is related to growing high-scoring bucks/QDM.

How can it be releveant to AR? The AR pusher's official reasoning is to balance the herd, etc., not grow higher scoring bucks. Or is it?...you just proved my whole point.They claim bio reasoning, but it is thewolf in sheep's clothing.

jcchartboy 11-16-2005 06:11 PM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 

JCsaid:
This is the authors opinion as it pertains to growing high scoring bucks. That opinion is based on all the available biologic information he has reviewed. Itis obviously relevant informationto considerwhen debating the topic of AR.

Phade replied:
That article is not relevant to spike harvest regarding AR. You even stated it yourself.
Phade,
Please reread my statement, your are infering facts that do not exist.

I stated that the authors "opinions" pertained to his interpretations as they relate to QDM.

It is thebiologic information that he utilized to form those opinionsthat I stateis relevant to the discussion of AR.

To simplify it for you...
His opinions on QDM don't matter, it is the biological data that he haspresented that is relevant to AR.


jcchartboy 11-16-2005 06:18 PM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 

ORIGINAL: Phade
The AR pusher's official reasoning is to balance the herd, etc., not grow higher scoring bucks.
So you are stating that you don't think AR propentshave anyinterest in balancing the herd?

SteveBNy 11-16-2005 06:19 PM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 

Phade,

So, obviously your answer is NO.

You do not believe the biologically data is relevant. Thank you for making that clear.
JC - I think Phades answer is that thebio data is but one very small part of the consideration of mandatory AR (especially based on point restrictions only)for NY.
The only deer protected and allowed to grow older underpoint based AR are spikes and forks who are either late born 1 1/2 or bad genetics. No protection at all for baskets and other YOUNG deer. I have not read everything on real QDM programs, but I find it hard to believe any there are anythat promote the taking of basket 8 points, and any other YOUNG deer( those under 4 1/2).
Perhaps you have other data thatdemonstrateshow targeting and increasing the pressure on the 60% or higher of 1 1/2 NY deer with 6 pts or better will be benefit anything? Or that (example) 90 class 2 1/2 are "trophies"?i
What about the rest of his arguement (ones I strongly agree with) against points based AR for NY? Again - WHAT is a TROPHY, and who gets to decide?
Steve

Steve

Phade 11-16-2005 06:28 PM

RE: NY do u think we should have a antler restrictions?
 
Steve has it nailed. I'm just strongly against AR mandated state-wide.

I relate it to a company who pollutes a river. What prevents that company from polluting? Is it biological consequences? Partly. But first and foremost it'sthe laws that prevents/controls it.

From an AR perspective, we need to answer the important social question of who can shoot what (law/regulation). Then, and only then, can we argue biology. It's pointless to do otherwise beforehand on an official capacity.


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