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ORIGINAL: Chasam60

I am a little put out over the defeat of the early muzzleloader season in the southern zone.The bow hunters in New York are a very organized group,obviously with a lot of political clout in Albany.I have nothing against bowhunting as a sport,but when you can hunt with a bow from 27Sep to 31Dec.and claim that giving up 7 days hunting time to muzzleloaders,will seriously harm your chances,it just makes me wonder.
Charlie

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ORIGINAL: RMQ

I want meat in my freezer before I worry about antlers on the wall. With the decreased number of deer in my area;

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Why not soot does then if meat is all you want?

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Why does a "trophy" hunter in search of a "better" (whatever that means) buck have to infringe on everyone else's hunting?

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Big bucks don't get kids in the woods, Quality experiences do.

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ORIGINAL: SteveBNy

I take it you meant shoot a doe:D

I agree with Charley 100%

Also how about the guy who does not draw a doe permit? He is supposed to pass on a 4pt so it can grow for the "trophy" hunter". You know the hunter who soots an 80 class 1 1/2 year old trophy.

Its obvious you have not read or choose to ignore all the other arguements against AR (ESPECIALLY those based on points alone) so let me ask you this.
If all you want is bigger horns, why don't you just buy a rack from a farm? Or have a replica made. Why does a "trophy" hunter in search of a "better" (whatever that means) buck have to infringe on everyone else's hunting?

Steve

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One could argue that if hunting is only for meat and to "keep it that way" Then why have any game laws??Right?

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ORIGINAL: jf5

However, we all know that most (not all) spike bucks are young deer. Having them live another year benefits all...

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Spikes: Wanted dead or alive?
New information in an old debate has not changed the bottom line for most deer hunters: Given conditions in most of the whitetail's range, it is rarely advisable to target spike bucks for harvest[/align]By Lindsay Thomas Jr.[/align]Quality Deer Management Association[/align][/align]






There is virtually no difference between a forkhorn's and spike's antler size when they reach full maturity.[/align]
The debate surrounding spike bucks goes on within the deer research community: Is a spike a product of a poor-quality environment or poor genetics? Hunters follow the debate, seeking assurance one way or the other as they establish harvest guidelines and herd goals. As research continues to produce conflicting answers to what seems a simple question, hunters find themselves revisiting an issue once thought to be closed.


This happened for many Quality Whitetails readers in the December 2003 issue, when Dr. Mickey Hellickson of the King Ranch in Texas weighed in on the spike question for "Whitetail Wisdom." (Quality Whitetails is the journal of the Quality Deer Management Association or QDMA).


Mickey presented preliminary data from an ongoing study of free-ranging whitetails in south Texas that he is conducting along with Drs. David Hewitt and Fred Bryant of the Caeser Kleberg Wildlife Research Institute at Texas A&M University-Kingsville.


Compared by gross Boone & Crockett score, spike-antlered yearlings in the study are not catching up to fork-antlered yearlings. Though at 5 1/2 years of age the spikes are producing antlers that would please the majority of North American deer hunters (an average of 125 gross B&C), the fork-antlered yearlings are achieving greater heights (an average of 146 gross B&C). Some readers who thought the question had been settled by previous research wondered if they were now being told to put the crosshairs on spikes.


The quick answer: No.


There will never be one answer to this question that is applicable to every set of conditions found in the whitetail's range.


For a few hunters, harvesting spike bucks may improve deer-herd conditions. For most hunters, it will not. The latter group is by far more numerous given the present condition of most whitetail herds in North America, and this article will hopefully help readers identify where they fit.


If hunters in Eastern states followed the example of other regions such as Texas on the spike question and worsened their situation instead of improving it, they would not be the first. Dr. Dave Guynn, professor of forest wildlife management at Clemson University in South Carolina, recalls how impressed he and other biologists were with the results that Al Brothers was getting in Texas in the 1970s. At the time there was almost no research on sound deer management techniques, and Al Brothers offered the first model.


"We came back to the Eastern states thinking that what we needed to do was shoot all of our spikes like they were doing in Texas," said Dave. "But because of nutritional problems and skewed sex ratios, most of our yearling bucks were spikes. When we hammered them, we were doing just the opposite of what we needed to do."







“
Generally, what we've seen is that [spike-antlered yearlings] stay a little behind [forkhorns] up to the 4 1/2-year-old age class, and they pretty well close the gap at that time. ”



— Dr. Harry Jacobson
Mississippi State University


The factors that lead to a prevalence of spike-antlered yearling bucks in a deer herd are many, and they interact in complex relationships that change across geographic areas. In an article in the August 2004 issue of Quality Whitetails, John Ozoga outlined many of the conditions that produce spike bucks.


They include the quality and quantity of available nutrition, which limit body and antler growth. Sex ratio is another crucial factor. When does outnumber bucks, some does may not be bred on their first or even second estrous cycle, and late-born fawns are the result.


These fawns get a late start their first year and are still lagging behind their early-born counterparts as yearlings. These and other factors interact with fluctuating conditions beyond a deer manager's control, such as climate and rainfall. The Texas managers who so impressed Dave and other biologists had already addressed factors like nutrition, sex ratio and age structure before targeting spike bucks in the harvest.


The crux of the debate between most recent studies centers on whether or not spike bucks can close the gap in antler production with same-age bucks that started with forked antlers. Research by Dr. Harry Jacobson with captive whitetails at Mississippi State University from 1978 through 1995 suggested little difference between spikes and fork-antlered yearlings that were given time to mature.


"Basically, by the time they were 7 1/2 there wasn't any difference between spikes and forkhorns," said Harry. "Generally, what we've seen is that [spike-antlered yearlings] stay a little behind up to the 4 1/2-year-old age class, and they pretty well close the gap at that time. There was a little bit of a difference in B&C scores on out until 7 1/2, but the difference was miniscule for the average deer hunter. Once a deer gets to 125 inches, it's a pretty good deer for the average deer hunter."


Another ongoing study on the spike question is being conducted in south Texas by Dr. James Kroll and Ben Koerth of the Institute for White-tailed Deer Management and Research at Stephen F. Austin State University. The study of free-ranging whitetails is in its seventh field season. James is waiting until completion of the eighth season to release data or definitive statements of findings, but he says that so far his results are similar to the Mississippi State study.


"Our sample size is now substantial to say the least," said James, "and what we are seeing right now is those differences [between spikes and fork-antlered yearlings] go away. We just finished analyzing the seventh year's data, and we're not seeing a difference at maturity."







“
If you see a spike and you shoot him, you definitely won't see him again and nobody else will either. If you don't shoot him, he might make it. ”



— Dr. Dave Guynn, professor of forest wildlife management at Clemson University


Like James Kroll and Ben Koerth's study, the research of Mickey Hellickson and his co-investigators is being conducted on free-ranging whitetails in south Texas on lands of varying management regimes. Mickey said that preliminary analysis of the data shows, on average, spikes are not closing the gap in gross score with bucks that started as fork-antlered yearlings.


"On average, fork-antlered yearlings are larger than spike-antlered yearlings in gross B&C score. They don't catch up," said Mickey. "Those two words, 'on average,' are the key, because there are exceptions," he said, "but in population management, your goal should always be to manage on the averages, not on the exceptions."


Though it may take time for researchers to reconcile the finer distinctions in the data, on one thing they seem to agree.


"There's only a handful of places in the world where culling is a true issue," said James Kroll, "but, it gets press. If our research came out to show that spikes are the scourge of the earth, I would still not recommend [shooting spikes] to most people."


"Five years ago, I was a strong proponent for not shooting spikes," said Mickey. "But I'm focusing on the scientific question, 'Are spikes inferior?' On average it's pretty clear. I think they are. The question, and it will remain after our study, is how applicable this research is to other places. Outside of south Texas, there are very, very few places where I would recommend shooting spikes. There are so many other things to focus on first that will have a much greater impact on your herd than will shooting spikes. People focus on the spike issue to the detriment of other management efforts, and it's a hindrance."


Under what scenario would most experts recommend shooting spikes? The criteria are strict enough that most hunters, particularly in the Eastern United States, can easily rule themselves out. Some experts, like Harry Jacobson, find it difficult to describe any situation in which they would encourage spike harvest. Other experts set high standards before supporting spike harvest.


Essentially, hunters should be able to say that they have addressed all other herd factors that can be managed before considering the removal of spiked yearlings. This means that natural vegetation and supplemental food plots are managed year-round for optimum forage quality and availability. Adult sex ratios are balanced, herd density is within the habitat's supporting capacity, and buck age structure has been improved by protecting immature bucks from harvest. The acreage under management is large and highly controlled, whether one property or several in a cooperative. Finally, the goals of the hunters on this area are focused on maximizing opportunities for mature bucks with high-scoring antlers.


What's interesting about this scenario is that the hunters amid conditions like these, in most areas of the country with good whitetail habitat, may see a reduction in the number of spikes observed. The improvements in nutrition, sex ratio and age structure have already reduced many of the controllable factors that create a prevalence of spike bucks.


"The first thing you're going to have to do is take care of the nutrition problems, and then take care of the sex ratio. Maybe one-and-a-half to two does per buck is realistic," said Dave Guynn. "But you're going to have to have some age structure, some older bucks in there, too. If you did that over a period of time, you would probably get fewer spikes anyway. But you have to protect those yearlings. Those yearling spikes may be good deer, they may have just been born late."


As an example of private land in the Eastern United States where the taking of spikes might be beneficial, Dave pointed to the Banks Farm in Morgan County, Georgia (see "The Banks Farm Way," Quality Whitetails, December 2003).


Once all of the more important management concerns have been met, as they have in a program like the Banks Farm, deer managers would be at a level similar to programs in south Texas where spike harvest may be advisable. It is important to note, however, that spikes are not harvested on the Banks Farm. As a final step in their program, after more than a decade under QDM, Banks Farm hunters began taking a few bucks with low potential, but they give a buck until at least 3 1/2 or 4 1/2 years of age before passing judgement.


Hunters on small acreages, especially those surrounded by properties where quality deer management is not practiced, should not consider harvesting spikes.


"Under those conditions, you can't manage your deer very well," said Dave. "One thing's for sure, if you see a spike and you shoot him, you definitely won't see him again and nobody else will either. If you don't shoot him, he might make it."


Throughout the Eastern United States, hunters face whitetail populations that are often beyond the carrying capacity of their habitat. Due to the timing of hunting seasons and traditional harvests that exact large tolls on yearling bucks, sex ratios and buck age structure leave much to be desired in most areas.


Breeding and therefore fawn birthdates are scattered over extended periods, and these conditions set the stage for higher numbers of yearling spikes. The solution is not to target the spikes but to deal with the conditions that produced them. Once a deer manager has documented success in all of these areas and is looking for the final step, then the harvest of yearling spikes can be considered...


...maybe.

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ORIGINAL: SteveBNy

So we should let the spikes walk and wipe out the 6 pt and better 1 1/2 class? Cause that is a probable result of AR based on points here in central NY.

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ORIGINAL: Phade
People seem to think AR=QDM.

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Essentially, hunters should be able to say that they have addressed all other herd factors that can be managed before considering the removal of spiked yearlings. This means that natural vegetation and supplemental food plots are managed year-round for optimum forage quality and availability. Adult sex ratios are balanced, herd density is within the habitat's supporting capacity, and buck age structure has been improved by protecting immature bucks from harvest. The acreage under management is large and highly controlled, whether one property or several in a cooperative. Finally, the goals of the hunters on this area are focused on maximizing opportunities for mature bucks with high-scoring antlers.

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ORIGINAL: jcchartboy

Phade,
The article I posted was for informational purposes only. Neither myself nor the article made any claim that AR=QDM.

The only information I gathered from the article that directly correlates to the area we are talking about (NY), is the following....

This is the authors opinion as it pertains to growing high scoring bucks. That opinion is based on all the available biologic information he has reviewed. Itis obviously relevant informationto considerwhen debating the topic of AR.

I really have no interest in debating AR. I was simply trying to provide some some relevant information to others that are interested in debating the issue.

JC

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JC said:
I was simply trying to provide some relevant information to others that are interested in debating the issue.

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ORIGINAL: jcchartboy

Regardless of whether Lindsay specializes in QDM, much of the information he discusses is still relative to the discussion of AR.

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ORIGINAL: Phade

Not at all in NY's case.
That question is what is a trophy to all hunters, and what right is there to say who can shoot what.

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ORIGINAL: jcchartboy

So you are saying that the biologicaldata that Lindsay presents has no relevance to the discussion of antler restrictions in New York?

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So you are saying that the biologicaldata that Lindsay presents has no relevance to the discussion of antler restrictions in New York?

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ORIGINAL: jcchartboy

Phade,

So, obviously your answer is NO.

You do not believe the biologically data is relevant. Thank you for making that clear.

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ORIGINAL: jcchartboy


The only information I gathered from the article that directly correlates to the area we are talking about (NY), is the following....

This is the authors opinion as it pertains to growing high scoring bucks. That opinion is based on all the available biologic information he has reviewed. Itis obviously relevant informationto considerwhen debating the topic of AR.

I really have no interest in debating AR. I was simply trying to provide some some relevant information to others that are interested in debating the issue.

JC

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JCsaid:
This is the authors opinion as it pertains to growing high scoring bucks. That opinion is based on all the available biologic information he has reviewed. Itis obviously relevant informationto considerwhen debating the topic of AR.

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Phade replied:
That article is not relevant to spike harvest regarding AR. You even stated it yourself.

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ORIGINAL: Phade
The AR pusher's official reasoning is to balance the herd, etc., not grow higher scoring bucks.

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Phade,

So, obviously your answer is NO.

You do not believe the biologically data is relevant. Thank you for making that clear.

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