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So What Rifle to Buy for NY freshly passed law

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So What Rifle to Buy for NY freshly passed law

Old 09-01-2005, 07:26 AM
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Default So What Rifle to Buy for NY freshly passed law

So now that rifles will be allowed in portions of the southern hunting zone what does everyone suggest I go out and buy?The only rifle that I own is a .22 LR which is obviously out of the question. I be hunting mostly in DMU 9R which is in Cattaragus County near the Alleghany State Park. So I have its going to have to be large enough caliber for black bear as well as deer. I leaning toward a 30.06 but might consider a 270. What is your thoughts on this?
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Old 09-01-2005, 08:01 AM
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Still coming to grips with this rifle thing, but I'll get used to it with time I guess. Anyway, what rifle you ask? Since most deer will still continue to be taken within 100 yards regardless of firearm used, why would someone opt for a longer range, higher velocity, lighter bullet choice like the '06 or .270? If I were to decide today on a gun, it would be a .444, .35 Rem, .44 Rem or something like that.

If the gun shoots less than a 150 gr bullet or 30 cal. than I wouldn't consider it. Just MHO. This is NOT hunting in the open plains of the mid-west, it's hunting in NYS which has much thicker on average. Thinks short to mid range, not the 300 yard stuff. Whey take a chance on a lighter bullet deflecting after it hits a single of buck brush 1/4 of an inch thick? Yeah, big, slow, and the ability to cut brush...that's what I'd be looking for in a gun.

I some areas where I hunt, I'll still use a 12 gauge. Best of luck to you Rwalter63.

-Hunter John
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Old 09-01-2005, 08:23 AM
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Default RE: So What Rifle to Buy for NY freshly passed law

rwalter63 I have to cast my vote for the 270. No, you're not going to be taking rediculously long shots with it and you don't need to knock down an elephant eiather. This is why I love the 270. To me it's the perfect deer and bear gun. It's extremely accurate and flat shooting and more than capable of shooting the distances and game you will encouter. You can find a broad range of loads depending upon what you are hunting as well. I have never used a different caliber as long as I've been hunting and it has not once let me down. It cuts holes at 100 yards and I dropped a 415 lb boone & crockett black bear with a load lighter than 150 gr and he didn't take a step. I also hunt Pa, so the terrain isn't too much different from that in NY. As far as not shooting a load that's lighter than 150 grains I just don't get it. You're hunting whitetail. I have personally never used a load over 150 gr and none of the deer I shot seemed to complain. Basically to me it's all about accuracy and dependability both of which the 270 are. Granted the same can be said for the 30-06 but I'm just a little biased . Both are excellect deer rifles and you couldn't go wrong either way. I guess that's why everyone I know shoots one or the other.
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Old 09-01-2005, 08:37 AM
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Both rifles you mentioned will destroy a whitetail. Also take a look at the 308 andremingtons 7mm-06. Just keep them away from my house.[>:]
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Old 09-01-2005, 10:27 AM
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I'm using my T/C Encore in 270 win .
You only need 1 shot ,that 's why I shoot T/C.
Hasn't failed me yet.
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Old 09-01-2005, 11:25 AM
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I have a Remington Semi in .243
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Old 09-01-2005, 12:32 PM
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Default RE: So What Rifle to Buy for NY freshly passed law

ORIGINAL: Hunter John

Still coming to grips with this rifle thing, but I'll get used to it with time I guess. Anyway, what rifle you ask? Since most deer will still continue to be taken within 100 yards regardless of firearm used, why would someone opt for a longer range, higher velocity, lighter bullet choice like the '06 or .270? If I were to decide today on a gun, it would be a .444, .35 Rem, .44 Rem or something like that.

If the gun shoots less than a 150 gr bullet or 30 cal. than I wouldn't consider it. Just MHO. This is NOT hunting in the open plains of the mid-west, it's hunting in NYS which has much thicker on average. Thinks short to mid range, not the 300 yard stuff. Whey take a chance on a lighter bullet deflecting after it hits a single of buck brush 1/4 of an inch thick? Yeah, big, slow, and the ability to cut brush...that's what I'd be looking for in a gun.
I understand your logic, but studies prove that a heavier bullet is impacted similar to a lighter one. They both deflect. There is no brush cutting ammo as far as we are concerned for deer hunting. If a bullet hits anything, even paper...there is a trajectory change. I know handgun bullets will deflect or fragment at a lighter weight, but this is more in lines of defense VS hunting. The key to rifle shooting is accuracy, the primary factor in a harvest. Determining brush whacking capabilities is pointless, because they are all affected.

I say a .270 would be ideal for deer/bear, not too overpowering for the deer (I might say that a .270 is a bit under muscled for the bear, but that is open to debate), but capable to make that rare shot (assuming competency in being accurate) out a couple hundred yards.

If I hunt those counties this year, which I doubt...I'll be using a 7mm rem mag.. it is the rifle I had when I hunted in the south with longer distance shots being possible. I won't go out to spend more money on a smaller rifle for the limited hunting I do in those regions.
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Old 09-01-2005, 12:49 PM
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NAHC website:
Brush Guns[/align]Bryce M. Towsley[/align]No single topic has remained so arguable over the decades as the issue of "brush guns." Advances in technology and trends of market whimsy have done nothing to stifle the discourse about which rifle "bucks the brush" better. Hunters of the old school say that a heavy, fat, blunt - nosed bullet traveling at low to moderate velocity will plow through brush with less deflection. The "enlightened" modern thinkers say that the long, thin bullet with a high rate of rotational speed will perform better because the gyroscopic effect of the rotation will keep it on course or aid it in returning to a stable course after a disturbance.[/align]Then there is the matter of bullet construction. Certainly, a low - velocity bullet will need to be of a softer construction than a premium bullet designed for magnum - type impact velocities. It follows that the softer bullet will deform more easily than the tougher "modern" bullet and destabilize in flight. That is certainly true if the velocities are the same, but the very natures of the bullets dictate that the tougher bullet will be traveling at a higher velocity. What effect will that create?[/align]Finally, there is the argument that in a given caliber, a round - nosed or flat - nosed bullet is better for shooting through brush than a pointed bullet. Nobody seems to know why, but a lot of hunters will argue the point passionately.[/align]I have heard arguments on the extremes of both sides. A Saskatchewan outfitter once told me that his .35 Whelen would mow down the thick second - growth brush that dominates the east side of the province like a "weed whacker through your front lawn." On the other hand, a manufacturer of a gun - related product told me during a SHOT Show dinner that if a bullet traveling over 3,500 fps even comes close to a tree branch, without necessarily hitting it, the pneumatic pressure of the air displaced by the bullet compressing against the tree branch will cause the bullet to fly off course and often even disintegrate in flight.[/align]So who can you believe?[/align]Testing the Theory[/align]I think that it is accepted that any bullet will deflect in flight if it hits brush. My grandfather's response to this was, "If you can see the deer well enough to shoot at it, then there is a hole big enough to fit a bullet through without hitting the brush." Good advice, but it still doesn't answer the question of bullet deflection.[/align]To find out for myself, I decided to shoot several rifles through brush under controlled conditions and record the results. Because using actual brush provided inconsistent results, I turned to hardwood dowels to simulate brush.[/align]I drilled holes in a couple of two - by - fours to hold the 1 - foot dowels. The holes were carefully spaced with 1/8 inch between them to ensure that no bullet could slip between without hitting something.[/align]Because the target backstop on our range is higher than the bench inside the shooting house, I constructed a frame to hold the "brush" high enough to approximately center the groups on the plywood backstop. A target was hung between cross - members on the front of the frame. This was placed at a measured 10 yards in front of the backstop, which was 100 yards from the shooting house. One foot behind the target was a barrier of 3/8 - inch dowels. Two feet behind that was another barrier of 1/4 - inch dowels. This was designed to be about twice as wide as the front barrier so that it would catch any deflected bullets.[/align]I covered the backstop with white paper, and shooters fired three shots at the target with each gun without the "brush" in place to establish a center of impact on the backstop. Unless noted, we then fired five shots through the "brush" from each rifle. After each shot, we replaced the dowels and marked the resulting hit on the backstop. This ensured consistency in the "brush" encountered by all bullets.[/align]All shots were fired from a benchrest, and caution was taken to make sure that they were carefully aimed. However, since I was recording the differences in group sizes before and after hitting the brush and the deviation from the center of impact, exacting accuracy was not necessarily important. All rifles showed acceptable hunting accuracy with the ammo selected, but the results are not to be interpreted as the "best" that rifle can shoot.[/align]Analyzing Results[/align]The results are recorded in the accompanying chart, but I will note some key points. Long, pointed bullets tended to keyhole (turn sideways), particularly when they hit the first dowels a glancing blow that put them between two dowels. Often, the second barrier would have two or even three dowels cut off, indicating that the bullet was traveling sideways.[/align]Round - or flat - nosed bullets tended to track better and showed less tendency to keyhole. The old - timers who liked big, slow bullets were on to something. The .35 Rem., .44 Rem. Mag. (discounting one flyer) and .45 - 70 Gov. showed the lowest percentage change in group size.[/align]To spoil the theory, the .270 Win. showed no change in group size if you discount the one flyer.[/align]Check out the .308 Win.! It actually showed a smaller group after hitting the brush. All calibers showed evidence of losing stability or deforming.[/align]In summary, you would be ill - advised to intentionally take any shot through brush at a deer. Every bullet that hits brush, regardless of caliber or design, will be affected, and it is impossible to predict reliably what that effect will be. While one caliber may do "better" than another, they all had the potential for extreme flyers. If that flyer happens to be the shot you fired at a buck, the results could be disastrous. Nothing's worse than making a poor hit on a magnificent game animal.[/align]
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Old 09-01-2005, 06:43 PM
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Old 09-02-2005, 07:39 AM
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Default RE: So What Rifle to Buy for NY freshly passed law

Phade - Nice article. I appreciate you posting it. Really. I agree with the article that any bullet, regardless of weight or shape, will be deflected when it hits brush. How can't it? However, my gut (although untested) tells me that a 1 oz slug will deflect less than a 140 gr rifle bullet. Yes, both will deflect, but the additional mass of the slug should help keep it more on its initial path than the rifle bullet. The key word here is "should."

I guess one could argue that a HARD rifle bullet will deflect less than a SOFT lead slug, which will quickly deform or even fragment when it contacts brush. Who knows? Lots of different variables involved. Anyway, good luck with the .270 and hope you enjoy a successful season!

-Hunter John
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