PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

Has anyone else been following the exchange between Gary Alt and several PGC spokespeople in the press? I just read about it in the PA Outdoor News but it seems to have been going on in the Pennsylvania Inquirer. Interesting comments on both sides.

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

I read Alt's article....then DuBrock's article....then The PA Outdoors News article which was basically a summary. Frankly, I think DuBrock slapped Alt up good with his article. Citing the things Alt didn't do and the things the PGC is continuing or expanding to do when I comes to AL tags. In the beginning I liked Alt and felt he had a good plan....now I'm feeling like he just wants to save flowers and trees and kill every deer in the state.

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

I think we saw some of it here over the last few weeks.

Guess I should pick up a copy of Outdoor news:)

I'll say this, I supported Gary Alt and mostly agree with what he tried to do but his attack of the PGC was a bit unprofesssional and showed quite a bit of sour grapes. Not what I would have expected from him.

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

i just got done reading field & stream and there is a story in it also.. what i dont understand is alt doesnt think that the hunters should have a say in what goes on w/ the herd. even though we pay for everything... oh well he is gone and i hope he dosent come back, i hope we get it all worked out here in PA. and i also would love for the hunters to start getting along

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

I was left with much the same impression after reading the Outdoor News article. It seems like he could care less about hunters' opinions. I am glad though that the PGC finally came out publicly stating that the 1.6 million deer estimate was not accurate.

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

Alt is a tree hugging ,fern loving, deer hating Idiot.Never has any state been so divided by one jerk.

The antis are loving this one.Burning bridges seems to be onhis agenda now.

If you feel the need to shoot a bunch of does go to the hot spots and shoot them, if you feel your deer #s are down then don't shoot the does.
Alt didn't shoot all those doe it was hunters,and if you want to see deer again then it too will be up to the hunters.

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

Exact opposite. Ferns are everywhere. Deer don't eat ferns. He wants the plants that ferns do not allow to grow.

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

Ok lets have a QFM ,Kill all the big ferns and let the little ones grow.The world would thank all adult fern killers And our insurance rates would plumet.

Dammn and I thought it was those big doe's that caused global warming!

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

AS for the 1.6 million deer, the actual quote from the PGC was " even a third grader knows that there are not that many deer" which I feel that about most things that Alt said. Sorry, the truth hurts.

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

"The antis are loving this one."

I personally doubt the anti's are really getting riled up over this. Can't see PETA launching a campaign based on Alt and the PGC not seeing eye to eye, or Pa's inability as a state to understand QDM.

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

So I wonder what "new method" the game commission is going to utilize in order to get more accurate deer numbers now that Gary's method has been shot down?

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

With all the importance the P.G.C.puts on scientic studies I think a model along these lines would be supported by all.

We could count just the road kills that were struck buy Chevy trucks made after 1998 thenmutiply that by the number of days Chevy trucks are driven,then divide that by the percent of out of state drivers who drive Chevy trucks in WMA G2 with an "Alt "variable of pie -r - squared the OWDD would be proven to every ones satisfaction.

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

Dr. R. said they would no longer rely on a population computer model and would base their decisions on future harvests on habitat surveys using indicator plants to determine if there are to many deer. However, he didn't explain how they will come up with the number of anterless tags that they will issue. He also didn't explain where he would get the staff necessary to do the habitat surveys over 45 K SM of the state every year. He also didn't address the issue of cultural carrying capacities and whether that would be an issue.

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

Sounds to me like the whining and complaining that hunters did at the end of last season about the number of deer spotted as compared to other years , scared the crap out of the PGC and now they are just scrambling to find a "new method" so they can calm hunters. More politics in the PGC if you ask me.

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

Uhhh, don't forget about the cross sectional coefficient.

;)

Ddear,

Thanks for the info.

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

Aren't we supposed to have regional biologists in place in the not-so-distant future? I would think this is part of the program.

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

The variables in barometric pressure in 2 G should more than make up any lunar changes in fawn reproduction.

For example : Most people that drive Chevytrucks are out on full moon nights.

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

One biologist per WMU would not be nearly enough man power to conduct representative indicator plant surveys evey year during the growing season. How could one man possible survey over 4000 SM of land in 2G .

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

You Bet - me and my Chevy Truck love those full moon nights.

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

As we have learned in the past deer managment is something that should be left to the experts , trained professionals.

If some of these equations seem overly simple don't jump to conclusions, believe me they are not.The true answers are very hard for the normal hunter( as innot a trained proffesional)to understand.

Just wait , one day the forest will be so lush with neo tropical birds and fauna that the deer will all live in the fields with horns to large to pass between the regenerating oaks.Hunting will be simple just head to your local field and pick one out.The bucks will be mighty and those pesky old doe will be begging to be shot before another rut comes around.

Great huntin!!!!!!!!!!

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

The so called experts always get to manage the herd , but the sad part is they are often no better than an armchair biologist with no formal training.

Alt was wrong about the following items:

1. The reason for late breeding.
2. The B/D ratio prior to AR's.
3. The projected benefits of AR's.
4. The effects of the increased anterless harvests on the OWDD.
5. The effects of HR on future buck harvests.

So the so called expert that had no respect for the hunters or previous deer managers was wrong ,more than he was right and now he wants to be the PGC's worst nightmare.

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

Now that's funny! Git er' done!

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

ddear,

I realize it is alot to ask but could you briefly touch upon each of the subjects you mentioned.

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

1. The reason for late breeding. Alt said that late breeding was due to a skewed B/D ratio ,when the fact is the vast majority of late breeding is due to fawns being bred fron Dec. to Feb.

2. The B/D ratio prior to AR's. Alt said the B?ratio was skewed and there wasn't enough buck to breed the doe. Dr. R. said the exact opposite because our adult breeding B/D ratio before AR's was 1:2.1.

3. The projected benefits of AR's. Alt said AR's would reduce late breeding,double the number of 2.5 + buck and double the number of 8 ps. and it didn't come close.

4. The effects of the increased anterless harvests on the OWDD. Alt said the increased anterless harvests allowed to increase to 1.6 M PS deer,when in fact the harvests reduced the OWDD by more than 20% as shown by the decreasing buck harvest.

5. The effects of HR on future buck harvests. In 2002 Alt said the buck harvest would return to normal in 2003,but it continued to decline in 2003 and declined even more in 2004.

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

Hey ddear its a joke !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Get it.

You are now three months past anal on this.[:o]

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

You may think Alt's comments were a joke, but some of us actually care about the future of deer hunting in PA ,even though you may not. You may also think you are a phyciatrist but your not ,so keep your diagnosis to yourself.

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

DD, i care so much also.. but the thing is people like Alt(im staying on topic) dont.. they could careless about the future hunting in PA..

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

1. I would say most who have studied nationwide QDM practices understand late breeding IS and CAN be due to skewed b/d ratios.

2. If your going to spout ALT said this and that, post the quote here from the exact source.

3. ALT was exactly correct in his statement unless your deer in PA are some exoctic breed. You cannot expect to see immediate results in all areas of QDM. That's a foolish assumption.

4-5. Boring - Boring Simply conjecture and speculation on your part with little snips that again say - ALT said this and that.

Pure and simple propoganda ddear

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

1. If QDM'ers believmost late breeding is due to a skewwd B/D ratio of 1;2.1 , them they don't know as much as they think they know. PA studies clearly show that breeding of fawns occurs after the vast majority of adult doe are bred . The more fawns that are bred ,the more late born fawns there will be.

2. Alt gave many species that are not available in print ,just like newspaper articles. Therefore ,it is unfair to demand exact quotes when you don't do the same for Alt supporters.

3. We do not have a QDM plan in place in PA. No QDM manger would set a goal of 12 DPSM which produces a harvest of 2 buck PSM. If you were familar with the data from PA you would know that both buck and doe harvests are declining and the 2.5+ buck harvest will decrease this year.

4. It may be boring to you since you don't live in PA. But to those who live and hunt here the future of deer hunting is at stake and Alt is doing his best to destroy the PGC.

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

ddear,

Thanks for the info. Lots of food for thought. I was never a devout Alt supporter but I was willing to give him a chance.

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

As usual dd you have skirted direct questions to statements you claim were believed by ALL or NONE.

All anybody has to do is go back in this thread and read your posts.

Living and Hunting in PA has little or no bearing on the statements YOU have made about QDM,late breeding,benifits of AR to B/D ratio,HR and future buck harvest, etc...etc...

Your making statements that could have relevance to any state not just PA. You have nothing to back it up, except your own spin on numbers and your "Opinon".

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

And I bet he drives a Dodge;)

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

Am I going to have to work up a new deer counting model.[:'(]

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

you should really do a little more reading about PA so you would know what you are talking about before you make unfounded accussations like that .

He is what DR. Rosenberry had to say about late breeding and whether we had enough buck to breed the adult doe.

If you have anymore questions about the reasons for late breeding and late born fawns in PA , I will be happy to enlighten you.

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

And I bet he drives a Dodge;)

If you guys would do your homework you would see ddear has been right all along.
I drive a DODGE so.

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

Now lets see if I was blowing smoke about the effects of AR's. the following is the harvest data for 2.5+ buck both before and after AR's were implemented. Note that the 2004 harvest of 2.5+ buck was also 62K.

Statewide data from 1981 through 2003 showing the buck harvest, percentage of 2 1⁄2 and older bucks harvested and the number of 2 1⁄2 year old and older bucks harvested for each year.
Year-------buck harvest------% 2.5 plus years old---# of 2.5 year old buck harvested
1981--------N/A------------------18.4------------------------N/A
1982--------122,264-------------20.3------------------------24,819
1983--------120,291-------------21.7------------------------26,103
1984--------135,388-------------22.8------------------------30,868
1985--------136,104-------------20.0------------------------27,221
1986--------150,363-------------21.2------------------------31,877
1987--------157,559-------------18.9------------------------29,779
1988--------163,113-------------19.0------------------------30,991
1989--------169,814-------------19.4------------------------32,944
1990--------170,099-------------17.9------------------------30,448
1991--------149,633-------------18.0------------------------26,934
1992--------163,195-------------18.5------------------------30,191
1993--------165,250-------------20.8------------------------34,372
1994--------157,030-------------17.5------------------------27,480
1995--------182,235-------------17.4------------------------31,709
1996--------153,432-------------16.2------------------------24,856
1997--------176,677-------------18.6------------------------32,862
1998--------181,449-------------19.4------------------------35,201
1999--------194,371-------------20.0------------------------38,874
2000--------203,221-------------18.3------------------------37,189
2001--------203,247-------------21.6------------------------43,901
2002--------165,416-------------31.8------------------------52,602
2003--------142,270-------------43.6------------------------62,030

Now please note that the 2.5+ buck harvest increased more from 2000 to 2002 before AR's were implemented, then it increased from 2002 to 2004 after AR's were implemented.

The increase prior to AR's was due to low BB harvests, more BB being recruited and fewer adult buck being harvested as antlerless deer. the exact oppposite has occurred since AR's were implemenetd so the 2.5+ buck harvesat will continue to decline and we will sooon be harvesting fewer 2.5+ buck than we did in 2002.

Now as far as the B/D ratio is concerned, I can provide a link that shows our B/D ratio in 1983 was 1:1.99 ,if you are still interested in seeing that I can support my postion with facts and that it is not based on my personal opinion.

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

Hey watch it BT,Dodge is ram tough!:D

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

This entire thread is getting off topic as is the usual.

dd,
who the heck is dr rosenberry? is he what you refer to as ALL QDM managers?? where are the rest as I requested you enlighten me on?? You failed to produce as usuaI and only responded with your usual "statewide data".

dr rosenberry's comments are far from what you stated in your post. you go back and read your posts and how you worded it(spun it) to fit your agenda. what he has stated is in no way unique to PA. I don't need to understand anything about PA. with the exception of your moldy oldy statewide data we have seen 100 times over there is nothing stated that is unique.

I really don't wish to enlighten you on anything further. I see most if not all of your posts negative propoganda to fit whatever purpose you have. Maybe to break 16k on HNI ??

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

Dr. Rosenberry happens to be a well respected wildlife biologist who is now the head of the PA deer management program. As i said before , you need to do a little more reading about what is happening in PA so you can add to the discussion and moderate this forum fairly.

DR. R. comments support exactly what I said. Late breeding in PA is due to fawns being bred in DEc. Jan. and feb. and not due to a skewed B/D ratio as Alt claimed. Dr. R said we habd enough buck to breed the doe so we didn't need AR. Our breeding rate for adult doe was 90% before AR's so the max. inmprovement AR's could provide was around 5%.