RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

DDear,

Just curious ... what does the 2004 data show ??


99er

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

To all my Dodge lovin friends....Dodges are OK, I guess, if you cant find a Chevy.....Was joking of course but not in the context of disparaging those of you who enjoy gettin "rammed";).

It was to poke a little jab at our resident "outof context, use the numbers how he wants to"bean counter.
If our new deer model really used chevy roadkills as part of the formula, he'd lilkley insert dodge data when it suited him. He likes old outdated data too so maybe I shoulda said he drives a Studebaker?

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

What the 2004 data shows is that HR has been much more effective than the PGC is willing to admit. The 39% reduction in the buck harvest mens the statewide herd has been reduced by at least 30%. Therefore, the small reduction in the antlerless allocation is meaningless and will resul tin further HR and lower buck harvests.

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

Where was this data generated? In the past few years wasitderived from that same puter program that didn't accurately estimate the deer harvest?

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

Just a question for ddear.

In your perfect world after we hunted down Alt and shot him like a mad dog.

You are now the PA deer king what would you do to bring euporia back to the deer hunters in PA.Don't let time or money influnce your choices, just in the order you would implement them lets here your ideas.

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

Alt is gone. It certainly appears there has been a mud slinging contest since he left with some insiders that didn't like his method or style - He's GONE and you you still can't let it go.

ALT might be gone from PA but you can bet he will have an effect on the future of deer hunting someplace in the northeast. The guy had the nads to make change. Now you have Dr R. You'll be bashing him by spring of 06.

Armchair biologists are a dime a dozen on the WEB.

dd,
You still have not produced ALL the QDM managers you refer to. You have DR R?? Reading your posts with respect to late breeding is almost comical. If you would truly look beyond the WEB you might find numerous other cause and effects of late breeding. It's not a PA thing.

To be perfectly honest I don't believe you Hunt Deer. You've never posted anything here that would lead anybody to believe otherwise.

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

ddear I see your out there come on lets play[:@]

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

The computer model that was flawed was the one that computed the OWDD and the PS population. The harvest data was calculalted the same way it has been calculated since 1986.

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

I am no fan of Alt but deer hunting is going to change weather we as hunters change with it is up to each of us.We are loseing huntable land at alarming rates.Alts plan was based on lowering deer numbers to what bad habitat could support, I believe its is a better idea to raise thequality of habitat to support a more huntable deer herd.
I see things this way because I am a deer hunter.Non hunters like to look at big trees,but big trees do not make good deer habitat.here lies the problem.
We need more and larger tracks of land timbered.
I live in Crawford county and we are blessed with mostly private land, small farms and large wood lots.Deer thrive here .Better cover will help your turkeys & grouse numbers also. Support timber harvest on all state land.
If you don't have any ideas don't bitch about what you get.

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

Ddear go back to page two and use my model.Plug in your numbers and tell us all the suprising results.

#owdd = no deer live here in the winter

#dpsm =are square miles are small so no deer live here

#2.5year old bucks = no deer live here so we have no 2.5 year old bucks

#deer in PA = Alt minus 30% multply by pie-r-squared plus no deer live here= 17

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

So if there are 17 deer in Pa now, will 1,000,000 doe tags be enough?;)

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

BTbowhunter is no longer allowed to drive on the full moon in G2!!!!!!!!!!!!

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

I'ts just you & me ddear . I see your still out there .No ideas or are you just havin a brain fart??? Take a shot.[:o]

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

Better recalculate your deer model. I drive a Chevy!
And I have it all sighted in just a waitin for the next full ( )( )moon!!!

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

Well ddear I get you up on stage hand you the mike and you get stage fright like Michale Jackson at a K.K.K. meeting.

It seems easy to point out others fault then hide from any responses on your own ideas.I didn't think you would have any points of intrest just keep beating that dead horse.

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

Stop - LMAO - Stop It

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

Well let's see if you can be fair and objective.

The first thing the PGC should do is establish the true carrying capacity of all the habitat the deer utilize ,instaed of basing the goals on just forested habitat as they have for the last 25 years. If you are fair ,you will agree that WMU 2F and 2G have the worst habitat in the state ,but yet their avg. OWDD goal is 16 DPSM,which is the highest in the state. The combined land area of the 2 WMU's is 6,524 SM compared to the remaining 38,476 SM in the rest of the state that has a goal of less than 12 DPSM. So if the PGC raised the OWDD in the rest of the state to 16 DPSM , 38,476 SMx4 DPSM= 153,904 fewer deer that have to be removed from the herd.

I would also launch a state wide educational campaign to inform land owners that if they want to have hunters control the herd ,they have to allow hunters access to their property. Alt blamed the hunters for being lazy and inept ,but he never placed the responsibility for excess deer on property owners who restrict access.

I would also survey ever hunter on their license application regarding their support for AR's. If over 50% support it then it should be continued . But, if 51% rejectected Ars it should be discontinued.

I would also manage SGL for the production of all species of wildlife rather than for the max. revenue from timber harvests. At the same time I would work to get the SGL timbered certified for max. revenue just like DCNR forest land.

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

DD- i like your plan. i would like to add to go along w/ your private land access to go farther and for SGL's.. they are getting better and opening up more roads but they do it the day before the season.. how is anyone going to scout that area, and learn it..

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

BT,give me a call when you get that chebby stuck in 2G,I'll come and pull ya out cause I know you'll have some beer with you.:D
Call me at 1-800-ram-pull
For more info- www.pulloutchebbys.com:D

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

I was reading thisthread and the othertopic from T in Pa3 (nice referrence Todd, thanks) that was locked, with the picture and link to the forrest study and noticed one thing that was very obvious...you guys don't like ddear too much. ;)

To be honest, I think the Pa deer herd needs reduction in some places, but that is only half the problem with the lack of new growth...the dominance of old growth trees and the resulting canopy that prevents sunlight from reaching the ground is just as responsible for the lack of regeneration as the deer are, at least in area's of old growth timber.So both should be addressed equally. If a plan was enacted to reduce the deer numbers as well as implementstrategic selective cuttings, deer numbers would not have to be so drastically reduced. Any QDM manager or habitat specialist worth his salt will tell you a certain amount of cutting needs to be done from time to time to maintain a healthy ecosystem, and provide food and cover for wildlife to thrive there. You could kill every deer on the mountain and still have very little new growth if you don't open the canopy.

As for the problem you all seem to have with ddear...I don't know what happened in the past, butin this threadI see a guy who's got his facts pretty muchin order, and those who don't like those facts taking a bunch of pot shots at him (and one of them is a Moderator which is kind of unsightly [:o])because they really can't dispute the numbers. Sure, some of the stuff is taken out of context a little, but no more than what the other side does to distort numbers to bolster their position. In fact, from what I'm seeing, there is less out of context material presented byddear than the other side, and a bunch of malcontents ganging up to belittle him because they can't refute his numbers with their own. If you don't like his numbers, come up with some of your own to disprove his claims, don't just throw insults around. Many of us here are still open minded on the subject and would like to see something to prove otherwise, not just mudslinging against the only person to provide data.

AJ, you might want to re-examine some of the things you've posted because you have been clearly wrong on a few positions. I personally think that is why you locked the other topic...because when you realizedddear was right about the math of the percentage of clearcuts that showed regeneration, you needed to shut it down. Maybe I shouldn't be pointing that out to a moderator, but hey, we all put our pants on one leg at a time, and if someone can't take being shown to be wrong, maybe they should be more careful about what they post. Maybe ddear isn't right all of the time, but in this topic and the locked one, he seems right to me. At least as a neutral observer that's what I see.

And I had no opinion about Gary Alt, but I did follow the whole thing closely since the beginning, and he was wrong about as much as he was right. My opinion after seeing the results of his program was that he was nobody special because he was only right half the time...even I could do that. He did have alot of ambition to spearhead the program that, from my view, turned out to be only half thought out. I think he pushed too much too fast. Smaller WMU's should have been in place first, where more control could have been exerted over the program he wanted to implement. I think PA needed smaller WMU's because the whole state didn't need the drastic reduction he was pushing, and it could have been tailored to area's that did need it. It would have had more support from hunters and he may still be doing the job. Rome wasn't built in a day, ya know.

His biggest mistake was ramming it at people who were not convinced, andin the process making enemy's of the people he needed support from, and that is what prevented him from doing his job. Now, he is standing on the sideline throwing mud at everyone and anyone who didn't take kindly to being force fed something that was only half-baked to begin with. Any respect I had for him in the outset is long gone...and Gary Alt needs to be as well.

Oh yeah, and Dodges are great trucks. :D

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

Things that make you go HMMM!

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

To be fair ddear, I don't see where the numbers for 2004 are in this table. Do you have them to know what the numbers between 2002 and 2004 are? Also, What does the B/D ratio from 1983 have to do with the present? I know the estimates of out-of-whack B/D ratios from the last few years were way off, but how does the 1983 number apply to the point you are trying to make?

I agree that the increase in button buck kills leads to lower recruitment of yearling bucks, and therefore, fewer yearlings become fewer 2.5, and so on down the line, but I don't see in the table where the 2.5 yr old harvest has started to decline. I think it will merelybe a function of drastically lower deer numbers, but I don't see that in this table yet. Maybe the missing 2004 numbers show that?

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

I think AJ and BT have hit the nail on the head when it comes to DD. I spent some time reading alot of his past posts and he is quite negative. His calculator also seems to work differently than mine also.:D

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

If that was someones attempt to suggest that I am ddear reinventing himself, you done messed up. :D

T in PA3 knows who I am...he sold me a couple of great trail cams last year.

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

when dd posts something there are a few that gang on him and then it gets negative. but i look at it as others are negative first. also once you get more than one or two agree w/ dd then a MOD will lock it up.. funny how it works here

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

WE all like ddear!
The true carrying capacity of the land varys so much from one area to another they can never be a set number of deer every where.With alot of small farms being turned in to housing deer are losing alot of ground fast.
Our area in the north west could support more deer than we have now.Most land here is private & most is posted because we don't want the does slaughtered.One of the questions I have with the QDM people is why you would want a 1 to 1 ratio of bucks to does on your land.Once that doe is bred your buck heads to my woods where we guard the does.Its kind of like "the build it and they will come" idea.

As far as antler restrictions ,the deer hunter in me likes them but it is not fair to the average joe that hunts deer 2.5 days per year.AR were put in place as a bait & switch idea by the great one.Kill all the does and you will be rewarded with wall hanger bucks. ddear posts alot of #s to prove that the buck kill is down & it is, but that is because of the over all drop in dear numbers.I think the kill reports do not tell the true story in the success of AR because once a buck lives through a full year as an adult their habits change dramaticly .Dear seasons are long with archery,early ML regular rifle, late archery & ml a buck that lives through this is a lot smarter next year & every year after that these dear become very hard to kill.

The PGC 100 year forestry plan is one of the worst ever.We are loosing millions of dollars by not harvesting these trees.This timber should be cut at least three times in 100 years.A younger forest would be beneficial to all wildlife.

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

i stated the the 2004 2.5+ buck harvest was 62K. I didn't add it to the table because I would have been accused of altering the data. The total harvest in 2004 was 124 K ,so we only harvested 62K 1.5 buck and carried over 62K 1.5 buck to 2005. If we lose 15% to normal non-hunting mortality there will be 52.7 K PS 2.5 buck. If we harvest 85% of those buck the 2.5 buck harvest will be around 44.8K plus the few 3.5 buck that were carried over from 2004.

The reason the 2004 2.5+ buck harvest remained stable was due to the fact that the effects of increased doe harvests are not reflected in the 2.5+ buck harvest for three years. The fewer surviving doe produce fewer BB the year after the high harvest so there are fewer 1.5 bucks the second year and the third year is when the decline in the 2.5+ buck harvest occurs. The high anterless harvest of 352K occurred in 2002 so the effects will be seen in 2005,when we will be harvesting fewer 2.5+ buck than in 2002.

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

The carrying capacity of the forested habitat varies just as much as the true carrying capacity of all the land ,yet the PGC made the WMU's larger and assigned the same carrying capacity to large sections of land.

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

Me thinks though doth protest too much. No one accused you of being dd but since you brought the subject up.....He has been known to use more than one name here.

Accepting you at your word that you're not him, heres some history you might wish to know. He got banned as deaddeer with hundreds of similar posts and turned around and came back on with a womans name in his profile butwas quickly exposed. (The banningwas not for the content of his posts but for the personal attacks and intentional flame wars worse than anything you presently see here)I, for one don't dislike him but it is easy to get riled up when he starts his barrage of statistics that often include his own spin.A look back in the archives will showsome of those distortions having been exposed. He is crafty and clever when he inserts his own spin and most points he makes require a bit of research to exposed the lie within. When he's faced with a cold hard fact disputing his position he changes the subject or hits with a new twisted barrage. He does have a talent for crunching numbers and could be quite helpful to allof usif we could simply trust him to keep his biased mission out of the mix.

I welcome you as a new member but maybe a little research into the past here would have been in order before you jumped into something you admitted you've only seeen a small part of. I'll also mention some of his most blatant distortions have been deleted byseveral of the mods and NOT just by AJ52

Anyway, welcome to our forum!!:D

Germaine,

I'd rather push a Chevy than drive a Dodge! A statement I can truly make cause I've never had to push my Chevy;). Oh and I just had the boom lowered by my doc. No beer till further notice.... maybe never:(Had a bout with pnuemonia last week and the virus got to the ticker. It'll heal but it's gonna take ayear or moreand no barley pops till its better:(:(:(:(

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

To my knowledge I was never banned . I had a computer problem that wiped out my automatic login so I simply reregistered. Unless a moderator contacted you personally and told you I was banned ,you have no basis for this personal attack. besides if I was banned permanently and the moderators knew I was banned, they would have banned me as ddear.
next time try and get your facts straight.

If you had done your homework and checked the members list you would have known that deadear is still an active member.

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

Get well BT.Are you able to hunt this year?

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

Thanks Germain, I will be hunting this year! Maybe not at full steam but I'll be out there! My Chevy will get me out there most of the way;)

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

Wrong again!
Typical dd distortion of the facts. Deadeer was bannned for 48 hours (not permanently)on 1/12/05 for his behavior on a thread where the three major posters were Germain, deaddeer and myself. The whole thread was deleted as a result. On 1/13/05 ddear joins with a womans name (but the same last name) in the profile. The first threadstarted by dd was immediately locked and subsequently deleted with the following message: "Topic locked, user under 48 hour ban:"

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

That's right, I was suspended ,not permanaently banned and Deadear is still a member of this site . Obviously I wasn't trying to disguise my identity when I reregiatered or I sure wouldn't have used ddear as my new screen name and I wouldn't have used the same last name.

Furthermore, my previous style of posting is no more relevant , than the price of tea in China. What is relevant is that you called me a liar and can't supprt your claim.

This thread is about what Alt is saying in interviews in the newspaper , it is not about you and me so let's get back on topic before this thread is closed.

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

i think its stupid the stuff Alt is saying now that he has left the PGC..
BT- sorry to hear about that, i truley hope it works out for you.. please do what the docs say and get better....

oh i drive a dodge also..i put 197k miles on it since 99 and its never broke down on me.. knock on wood.. never got stuck too.. nice truck...

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

Alt is absolutey wrong to do what he's now doing IMHO

Thanks for the good wishes Pa Gobbler!! The doc thinks it's virtually 100% reversible:D
but it's gonna really suck for awhile.[:@] I should be out fishing right now but doc says thats several weeks away :(

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

SORRY

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

Whine [:o] - Whine [:o] - Whaaa [&o] - Whaaa [&o] - Get off the pot - Get a Life - Take Control - Go Hunting. ALT is gone. This incesant whining about ALT is trashing the forum.

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

your talking about Alt right??? seems like he's doing a lot of whining for us to talk about

RE: PGC and Gary Alt' Newspaper comments?
 

WOW!! sorry about that,I justposted the article that evoryone was talking about but never read, I can't believe after 8 pages that one set you off.