So what Journals do these references come from that state that glucosamine is one of the best ways to prevent cruciate ruptures in dogs?

Were I the one making claims and providing references I would be more than happy to email you.

So this is how you back up what you say. Interesting. One of the links wouldn't happen to be the junk study you put up in the Sporting Dog Forum about 6 mos ago would it?

1. I have told you twice, exactly how to find out.
2. Same answer as #1.
3. Same answer as #1.
4. The PM copies of referencesthat I mentioned are stored at the "Refuge".
Ihave no idea what "junk study" I put up on Sporting Dog (6 months ago)you are referring to. Please refresh my memory.

If you and kshoe would like to participate in a gentlemanly debate, I will be more than happy to participate. If, on the other hand, you want to continue acting like little girls, then my conversations with you are finished.


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A gentlemanly debate? I believe you should go back through the thread and have a look and see who started with personal attacks and name calling. That is mature and gentlemanly.

Once again, I'm not tyring to back up any claims. If I were, the more links/lists I had the better. I don't need any email list from you. I know how Entrez works. You made a statement you would back up anything you say, I have yet to see it.

I also think it wouldn't be so hard for someone who sells their own brand of neutracueticals to provide some information when asked. Those devices of drugs you are selling? Got any FDA claims to back you up?

Just provide me the one study/link that shows that glucosamine is one of the best ways to prevent cranial cruciate ruptures in dogs. Surely with all that glucosamine you don't have arthritis in your fingers and can type a couple of them here?

You said you would provide the proof, put a few of them on here, you made the statement not I. No, I'm not going to email you. So far to back up your claims you have said email me you are a girl. I may not be the sharpest guy in the world but I'm having a little trouble putting that and cruciate ruptures together.

mez,

I'm trying to figure out (with help)how to transfer my list of references over here.
I'm sure there has to be a way to do it, just don't have it figured out yet.


.

[hr]


Here they are :
Glucosamine sulfate: a controlled clinical investigation in arthrosis....Pharmatherapeutica 1981;1;2:504-8

The efficacy and safety of glucosamine sulfate in the treatment of gonarthritis...Clin Ther 1996;147:99-105

The role of flucosamine sulfate and chondroitin sulfates in the treatment of degenerative joint disease. Alt Med Rev 1998;3:27-39

Conservative treatment of spinal osteoarthritis with glucosamine sulfate and spinal manipulation. J Manipulative and Physiol Ther 1997;20-400-14

Glucosamine, chondroitin and magnesium ascorbate for degenerative joint disease of the knee or low back: a randomized double-blind, placebo controlled pilot study. Mil Med 1999;164:85-91

Double-blind clinical evidence of the elative efficacy of Ibuprofen and glucosamine sulfate in the management of osteoarthritis of the knee in out-patients. Curr Med Res Opin 1982;8:145-9

On the pharmacology of bromelain an update with special regard to animal studies on dose-dependant effects. Planta Med 1990;56:249-53

Bromelain in the treatment of blunt injuries of the locomotor system.A study of observed applications in general practice. Fortschr Med 1995; 11; 303-6

The neglect of Glucosamine as a treatment for osteoarthritis-a personal perspective. Med Hypothesis 1994;42:323-7

Enhanced synovial production of hyaluronic acid may erapid clinical response to high-dose glucosamine in osteoarthritis. Med Hypothesis 1998;50;507-10



More to follow.

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Hi Doc, I think I can help you out..

Phil,
Thanks for the offer.
Here's the "Problem". What I have stored (references) are 'saved copies' of PM's.

I hope this helps you..

I think Phil has taught me how to cut and paste.
See 2nd post above -- followed by this one

List of References continued
[/align][hr]


The rest of the list:
Effect of dimethyl sulfoxide and dimethyl sulfone on a destructive process in the joints of mice with spontaneous arthritis. Patol Fiziol Eksp Ter 1991;7:10-14

Double-blind clinical evaluation of oral Glucosamine sulfate in the basic treatment of osteoarthritis. Curr Med Res Opin 1980;7:110-14

Efficacy and safety of glucosamine sulfate versus ibuprofen in patients with knee osteoarthritis. Arzneimittleforschung 1998;48:469-74

Incorporation of methylsulfonomethane sulfur into guinea pig serum proteins. Life Sci 1986;39:263-8

Clinical research in osteoarthritis: design and results of short-term and long-term trials with disease modifying drugs. Int J Tissue Rduct 1992'14:243-51

Glucosamine in osteoarthritis and gastrointestinal disorders: an exemplar of the need for a paradigm shift. Med Hypotheses 1998;51:347-9

Antireactive properties of "chondroprotective" drugs. Int J Tissue React 1992;14:253-61

Antireactive properties of glucosamine sulfate. Arzneimittleforsching 1991;41:242-53

Antiarthritic effects of glucosamine and chondroitin sulfate on osteoarthritis of the TMJ: a preliminary report of 50 patients. Cranio 1998;16:230-5

Antiarthritic effects of glucosamine sulfate studied in animal models. Arzneimittleforsching 1991;41:242-53

Oral glucosamine sulfate in the management of arthrosis: report on a multi-centre open investigation in Portugal. Pharmacotherapeutica 1982;3:157-68

Bromelain, the enzyme complex of pinneapple and its clinical application. 1988;22:191-203

So there ya go.
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Thanks for the list Doc, but we must stay within the confines of the title of the thread in which you started, "Truth in Advertising."

Once again this is your statement and you also stated that you would back up anything you say. Now I'll assume you forgot to include the reference in your list to back this up as all you have provided are references as to the use of the products in the treatment of arthritis, arthrits and ligament ruptures are not the same thing, nor are the treatments the same.

The time issue needs to be addressed as well. I assume that most of the forum members are not well versed in medical literature. So there are a few housekeeping chores to take care of. It is very well accepted within the medical community that literature over 5 years old is considered out of date. The newest reference you have provided was 1999. There is a database for medical literature, Pub Med, it is THE accepted medical literature database in this country. If you run a search on pubmed for glucosamine sulfate you will get 11,001 articles
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez
If you run a pubmed search for glucosamine sufate ligament rupture you will get 0 hits http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez
Run a search on glucosamine sufate and ligament rupture prevention you will again get 0 hits http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez
I'm still not quite sure why the newest reference you provided was 1999 and why you haven't included the reference for cruciate ligament rupture prevention.

Another point of note. Glucosamine and chondroitan sufate, two of the more popular and well known neutracueticals are what are referred to as medical devices, not medical drugs. This is a very important distinction as medical drugs need to go through extensive testing, prove that they work for the intended purpose, prove that they contain exactly what is on the label and in the exact quantities, come from a pure and approved medical source, and have extesive toxicity studies done and list any and all side effects that may occur with use. The FDA monitors this and approves the drugs to protect the consumer. Medical devices have no regulation whatsoever. No testing, no proving they work, no proving that the ingredients you are buying are actually even in the container, no toxicity or side effect studies, etc. You basically need enough capital to put something in a bottle and sell it. No one regulates these products. Buyer beware.

There are a few companies that have their products tested by independant laboratories to confirm that they are actually selling what they say they are, Doc does this with his. It is not regulated or required to be done but shows that the company selling it has some integrity and is willing to stand behind their product.

It's called extrapolation. As can be done with this study.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Osteoarthritis Cartilage. 2001 Jan;9(1):14-21.
Related Articles,

Links

Effects of an orally administered mixture of chondroitin sulfate, glucosamine hydrochloride and manganese ascorbate on synovial fluid chondroitin sulfate 3B3 and 7D4 epitope in a canine cruciate ligament transection model of osteoarthritis.

Johnson KA, Hulse DA, Hart RC, Kochevar D, Chu Q.

Department of Veterinary Clinical Sciences, The Ohio State University, Columbus, Ohio 43210-1089, USA. [email protected]

OBJECTIVE: To evaluate effects of an orally administered mixture of chondroitin sulfate, glucosamine hydrochloride and manganese ascorbate (CS-G-M) on articular cartilage metabolism in dogs with cranial cruciate ligament (CCL) deficient and reconstructed knees, as reflected by concentrations of synovial fluid 3B3, 7D4 and total sulfated glycosaminoglycan (GAG). METHODS: Sixteen adult dogs that underwent unilateral CCL transection were randomized into four groups. Thereafter, group I (N=3) had a sham CCL reconstruction, group II (N=3) had CS-G-M and sham CCL reconstruction, group III (N=5) had CCL reconstruction, and group IV (N=5) had CS-G-M and CCL reconstruction. Synovial fluid collected at 0, 1, 3 and 5 months was examined by ELISA for 3B3 and 7D4 epitope, and by DMMB assay for total GAG. RESULTS: Synovial fluid from CCL transected knees of CS-G-M treated dogs contained significantly elevated concentrations of 3B3 (P=0.029), 7D4 (P=0.036) and 7D4/GAG (P=0.007) in comparison to controls, in a cross-sectional analysis at 3 months. Furthermore, 7D4 and 7D4/GAG concentrations remained significantly elevated (P=0.012) in CCL transected knees of CS-G-M treated dogs over the 5 month period. However, when epitope concentrations were expressed as a ratio of CCL-transected to contralateral non-operated knee, treatment effect of CS-G-M was no longer significant. Reconstruction of the CCL had no significant effect on synovial fluid epitope. CONCLUSIONS: Administration of CS-G-M was associated with altered concentrations of 3B3 and 7D4 epitope in synovial fluid, suggesting that these compounds may act to modulate articular cartilage matrix metabolism in vivo.
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As far as the publication dates, see my response in the Fish Oil thread.

If an article published in 1952 says something --- and the research was repeated in1980, 1990 and1995 with the same findings, areall of the studies false because they are all over 5 years old?


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Extrapolation, I see. I think it is called taking someones work and making it fit your agenda. I'll give Dr. Hulse a call and ask him if this study supports your claim that glucosamine is one of the best ways to prevent cruciate rupture in the opposite leg. After all, since he is the second author on the paper he should likely be able to speak on the subject don't you think?

Well designed scientific studies require no extrapolation. Peer review of papers allows no extrapolation to be done in the discussion. Extrapolation and anectdotal evidence are the same beast. So you were talking about your peer reviewed articles prior and now your extrapolating.

Still waiting for the link to that peer reviewed paper that backs up your claim about the CCL rupture. Somehow I'm not seeing how modulating the cartilage matrix is preventative for ligament rupture. Maybe you could explian the pathophysiology behind that.

Not to knock you or anything, but you don't know how to cut and paste? I want to see these scientific articles. And no I am not a breeder, just a curious hunting dog owner.