Charcoal female Lab, Started 16 months old Amazing Retriever from hunting line
07-05-2007, 08:14 AM
#21
Spike
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 15
RE: Charcoal female Lab, Started 16 months old Amazing Retriever from hunting line
Thanks for your response to Doc. He hassles me every time I post on here as well. Look at every Lab add and you will see he does the same to everybody. He goes into everyone's add just to create problems and give him a chance to brag on his own dog.He used to try and peddle hisquacky health productson his link.He probably does have a good dog that he is proud of. Too bad it ended up in the hands of such a trouble making pr*#k.
07-05-2007, 08:35 AM
#22
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Colville WA USA
Posts: 1,974
RE: Charcoal female Lab, Started 16 months old Amazing Retriever from hunting line
I only "hassle" those that deserve to be hasseled............Those that lie, those that have no genetic health clearances. I guess that you've never noticed that I also compliment those people who tell the truth (all the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth) and breed responsibly.
It's those people who breed irresponsibly who are a huge problem in the causes of Labs having so many genetic health problems.
If you (or anyone) believes that by me bringing out facts is wrong and a hassle --- well, I guess we'll just have to disagree. If you can show me where I have ever told a falsehood about any adds, please let me know and I will apologize and make a correction.
As soon as you (or any breeder) breeds responsiby and tells the truth, I'll be one of the first to say so and compliment you for "doing it right".
.
It's those people who breed irresponsibly who are a huge problem in the causes of Labs having so many genetic health problems.
If you (or anyone) believes that by me bringing out facts is wrong and a hassle --- well, I guess we'll just have to disagree. If you can show me where I have ever told a falsehood about any adds, please let me know and I will apologize and make a correction.
As soon as you (or any breeder) breeds responsiby and tells the truth, I'll be one of the first to say so and compliment you for "doing it right".
.
07-09-2007, 07:03 PM
#23
Fork Horn
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Holly Lake Ranch Tx
Posts: 375
RE: Charcoal female Lab, Started 16 months old Amazing Retriever from hunting line
What is a Pointing Lab? Or do you mean Pointer-lab as in German-Pointer or English Pointer mixed with Lab.I have never heard of any pure bred dog by that name! Could you send me some info on that bred.
Most of my labs that I have had would point, but they were just Labs.
I don't mean to come off as a smart A, but I would realy like to know!!
Thanks,
Grant
Most of my labs that I have had would point, but they were just Labs.
I don't mean to come off as a smart A, but I would realy like to know!!
Thanks,
Grant
07-09-2007, 10:18 PM
#24
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Colville WA USA
Posts: 1,974
RE: Charcoal female Lab, Started 16 months old Amazing Retriever from hunting line
Grant,
Pointing Labs are 100% pure Labs. They just happen to point instead of flush.
Check out www.americanpointinglab.com/ and also www.pointinglabs.com
Then click on the "Breeders" links and take a look at the various kennel's websites.
Pointing Labs are 100% pure Labs. They just happen to point instead of flush.
Check out www.americanpointinglab.com/ and also www.pointinglabs.com
Then click on the "Breeders" links and take a look at the various kennel's websites.
07-26-2007, 06:39 AM
#27
Typical Buck
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: New England
Posts: 811
RE: Charcoal female Lab, Started 16 months old Amazing Retriever from hunting line
Daleh,
According to a pointing lab site, you don't have pointing labs:
"Q. "What pointing breed did you cross over to get your ‘strain’ started?"
A. None. Cross Breeding was not necessary (and is prohibited by both the IPLA and the AKC.) All dogs descended from the wolf, the original canine. Hence, all dogs have pointing genetics in their background. By breeding labs-with-pointing instincts to labs- with-pointing instincts, labs with more pointing instinct were produced. By breeding those labs, again, to other labs-that-point, the strain emerged."
According to a pointing lab site, you don't have pointing labs:
"Q. "What pointing breed did you cross over to get your ‘strain’ started?"
A. None. Cross Breeding was not necessary (and is prohibited by both the IPLA and the AKC.) All dogs descended from the wolf, the original canine. Hence, all dogs have pointing genetics in their background. By breeding labs-with-pointing instincts to labs- with-pointing instincts, labs with more pointing instinct were produced. By breeding those labs, again, to other labs-that-point, the strain emerged."
07-31-2007, 07:31 PM
#28
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location:
Posts: 698
RE: Charcoal female Lab, Started 16 months old Amazing Retriever from hunting line
ORIGINAL: mustad
Daleh,
According to a pointing lab site, you don't have pointing labs:
"Q. "What pointing breed did you cross over to get your ‘strain’ started?"
A. None. Cross Breeding was not necessary (and is prohibited by both the IPLA and the AKC.) All dogs descended from the wolf, the original canine. Hence, all dogs have pointing genetics in their background. By breeding labs-with-pointing instincts to labs- with-pointing instincts, labs with more pointing instinct were produced. By breeding those labs, again, to other labs-that-point, the strain emerged."
Daleh,
According to a pointing lab site, you don't have pointing labs:
"Q. "What pointing breed did you cross over to get your ‘strain’ started?"
A. None. Cross Breeding was not necessary (and is prohibited by both the IPLA and the AKC.) All dogs descended from the wolf, the original canine. Hence, all dogs have pointing genetics in their background. By breeding labs-with-pointing instincts to labs- with-pointing instincts, labs with more pointing instinct were produced. By breeding those labs, again, to other labs-that-point, the strain emerged."
How long has the APLA or IPLA been around?
Fill Out the paperwork signed by sire and dam of registered litter and the dogs are registered.
No Dog ever gets DNA tested until they win a Championship that just started a few years ago by AF
To prove the point on a pointing lab you will never see a 80 lbs lab point a bird.
Another point on the pointing lab is when a dog points the tail goes up and he locks up. There is a big difference between pointing a bird a stoping for a bird.
08-07-2007, 10:32 PM
#29
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location:
Posts: 44
RE: Charcoal female Lab, Started 16 months old Amazing Retriever from hunting line
frankin11, I was just wondering, you entered your dog in a field trial without going through the derbies, qualified all age runs, you just went right on to the open????? WOW, what a dog that must be. I would love to have it.
08-07-2007, 11:51 PM
#30
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location:
Posts: 44
RE: Charcoal female Lab, Started 16 months old Amazing Retriever from hunting line
I must admit that I didn't read all the posts on this topic. I have been breeding field trial labs for 23 years and have produced several field champions, QAA dogs, pups with derby points, many MH, SH, and JH.
Anyway, none of that really matters but I wanted the back ground in this message. (BY THE WAY, SPELLING IS THE LEAST OF MY WORRIES).
The thing is, when breeding these new colors without any thought what so ever on blood lines is absolutely hurting the breed. It is worse then people breeding dogs without health clearances.
I can say this with absolute certainty, folks breeding the new silver, charcoal or whatever colors they are trying to bring out have no concept on what breeding dogs is about. You are worse then the backyard breeder.
I really don't care who this pisses off. It is the truth and you all know it down deep. You also wish you had the breeding knowledge you should have to even let a male dip his pickle in your females.
I am wondering, what is the inbreeding coefficients on your dogs? Coefficients that are properly calculated with field champions or titled dogs of other organizations. Regular gundogs are also great as long as you know the lines are free from genetic defects and the dogs are great in the field.
I believe you when you say your young dog is a hunting machine. The problem is, you have little chance of that dog being able to produce puppies better then she is and still be confident you are doing a breeding that is going to be superior over the parents and be consistant superior pups througout the litter.
Only through proper line breeding can you dramatically increase your odds of producing a real quality litter of consistant quality puppies across you litter.
Generally when you do an outcross litter, if you have eight puppies, the percentages say you will produce four average puppies, two above average and two dead heads. This is not what you need to do as a breeder. We all have the need to outcross at some point to bring new blood into our lines but, you make damn sure you are doing that properly as well. You need to make sure you have researched those genes for several generations back. It would take me months sometimes to get my research done on a particular breeding.
When you bring new blood into your lines generally you want to bring it in on the top side and continue your linebreeding on the bottom. Your inbreeding coefficient isn't going to be optominal which is right at 18 but this is also necessary from time to time. The reason most breeders want to bring the new blood in on the topside is because for some reason which no one can really explain, the females tend to put their mark on the puppies more then the males. This is why you need to have top quality females when you are breeding. I am not saying they need to be titled but they need to be bred very well, have great hunting drive, and are clear of genetic defects. There are several nice programs out there to help you.
I am not trying to lecture anyone at all. I am simply trying to help you out a little when it comes to breeding dogs from and breed.
I know you are probably going to take this as my jumping all over your butt, I assure you that is not my intention.
I was privileged to get this knock in the head from a great breeder in Canada several years ago. I didn't like it but I tell you what, we became great friends and he put me light years ahead of where I would of got on my own in a much shorter time period. It is difficult to learn how to properly hook up the correct dogs when doing your breedings. The thing is, if you take the time to try and learn, you will be so far ahead of where you are going to be if you continue to just stick dogs together because of their color.
I produce all colors but it is not a consideration when it comes to breeding with the exception of breeding a yellow to a chocolate. Breeding two recessive genes together is exactly the thing you don't want to do. That is how you get these labs with washed out color on their nose and eyes. They have depigmentation right out of the shoot.
When breeding two recessives together you are asking for trouble because when you lined up the two recessives you more then likely lined them up on several other traits as well and are going to have one of those sub par breedings again. I call sub par as having eight pups and only two of them are above average puppies.
There are so many sites out there to help you out on canine genetics. I really hope you take advantage of them. Granted it is going to take you years to learn what you need to consistantly produce superior pups.
Wouldn't you rather produce pups that can hang with the best of them out there in the trials? It is totally possible and anyone can do it. You just need to apply yourself and you will have increased success everytime you do a new breeding. Everyone takes their lumps when starting out but really, please, try and do it right and don't mess with these recessive washouts with these new colors.
I am also going to tell you one thing. You can breed two field champions together, and if you don't don't get the inbreeding coefficient right, you might as well of bred your great female to ODIE down the block becaues you have just as much of a chance getting a an entire litter of superior puppies.
This is why it is so much to do your research and pick the proper breeder, do your homework on them and make sure they know what they are doing, ranther then picking a particular litter
I really hope I didn't offend you or anyone else but I know that is probably not possible. I would be happy to assist anyone who is trying to advance their knowledge on canine genetics. It isn't an easy thing to learn and when I asked Rob what he wanted for helping me so much his reply was, just help new people that are getting into the breeding business and I have many times and continue to do it when people want help.
For some reason most real quality breeders don't want to share their knowledge yet these are the same people that bitch when someone is trying to get into breeding and are seriously trying to do it the right way. That is disapointing.
The one thing I don't understand about AKC, you have to pass tests for many other progras they have. Why not have to pass a test on your knowledge as a breeder before you are able to register litters. That would really start to increase the quality of our hunting breeds. Actually it would benefit all breeds.
Anyway, I am sorry for such a long letter but this is a topic that is very concerning to me. Take care and I really do hope you try and educate yourself on proper breeding. You need to learn how to calculate inbreeding coefficients, properly research certain dogs you are thnking of breeding to, learn to read their genetic codes, reverse linked genes, genotype, fenotype and several other codes you need to know to properly increase the quality of your dogs. You can actually do it in a hurry if you want to apply yourself.
You have a real advantage of having the internet now. We didn't have that twenty years ago.
Anyway, take care and I hope the training and breeding come alone for you. I truely do but if you continue to breed those recessive genes together you are just looking for serious defects down the road with your puppies and have to end up shelling out the purchase price back or another puppy.
I would always replace the dog with another puppy. Most often the family has become to attached to the dog to return the puppy or started dog. In this situation it is a judgement call on your part and I am really saying whether you decide they have to return the original pup or not. The thing is if you can get the records from the persons vet, I normally let them keep their pup or started dog and send them out a new one. People really do deserve to get what they are paying for.
I find it hard to believe that these dogs with the two recessives stuck together are going to have health free lives. I know most breeders only guarantee thier pups for two years. We personally guarentee our dogs for life. If it is a started dog they are dams sure they are going to get exactly what they what they were looking for in a dog. This is why it is so important to screen your customers carefully to make sure you have the types of pups they are looking for.
I am done for this day. Take care everyone and good training.
Anyway, none of that really matters but I wanted the back ground in this message. (BY THE WAY, SPELLING IS THE LEAST OF MY WORRIES).
The thing is, when breeding these new colors without any thought what so ever on blood lines is absolutely hurting the breed. It is worse then people breeding dogs without health clearances.
I can say this with absolute certainty, folks breeding the new silver, charcoal or whatever colors they are trying to bring out have no concept on what breeding dogs is about. You are worse then the backyard breeder.
I really don't care who this pisses off. It is the truth and you all know it down deep. You also wish you had the breeding knowledge you should have to even let a male dip his pickle in your females.
I am wondering, what is the inbreeding coefficients on your dogs? Coefficients that are properly calculated with field champions or titled dogs of other organizations. Regular gundogs are also great as long as you know the lines are free from genetic defects and the dogs are great in the field.
I believe you when you say your young dog is a hunting machine. The problem is, you have little chance of that dog being able to produce puppies better then she is and still be confident you are doing a breeding that is going to be superior over the parents and be consistant superior pups througout the litter.
Only through proper line breeding can you dramatically increase your odds of producing a real quality litter of consistant quality puppies across you litter.
Generally when you do an outcross litter, if you have eight puppies, the percentages say you will produce four average puppies, two above average and two dead heads. This is not what you need to do as a breeder. We all have the need to outcross at some point to bring new blood into our lines but, you make damn sure you are doing that properly as well. You need to make sure you have researched those genes for several generations back. It would take me months sometimes to get my research done on a particular breeding.
When you bring new blood into your lines generally you want to bring it in on the top side and continue your linebreeding on the bottom. Your inbreeding coefficient isn't going to be optominal which is right at 18 but this is also necessary from time to time. The reason most breeders want to bring the new blood in on the topside is because for some reason which no one can really explain, the females tend to put their mark on the puppies more then the males. This is why you need to have top quality females when you are breeding. I am not saying they need to be titled but they need to be bred very well, have great hunting drive, and are clear of genetic defects. There are several nice programs out there to help you.
I am not trying to lecture anyone at all. I am simply trying to help you out a little when it comes to breeding dogs from and breed.
I know you are probably going to take this as my jumping all over your butt, I assure you that is not my intention.
I was privileged to get this knock in the head from a great breeder in Canada several years ago. I didn't like it but I tell you what, we became great friends and he put me light years ahead of where I would of got on my own in a much shorter time period. It is difficult to learn how to properly hook up the correct dogs when doing your breedings. The thing is, if you take the time to try and learn, you will be so far ahead of where you are going to be if you continue to just stick dogs together because of their color.
I produce all colors but it is not a consideration when it comes to breeding with the exception of breeding a yellow to a chocolate. Breeding two recessive genes together is exactly the thing you don't want to do. That is how you get these labs with washed out color on their nose and eyes. They have depigmentation right out of the shoot.
When breeding two recessives together you are asking for trouble because when you lined up the two recessives you more then likely lined them up on several other traits as well and are going to have one of those sub par breedings again. I call sub par as having eight pups and only two of them are above average puppies.
There are so many sites out there to help you out on canine genetics. I really hope you take advantage of them. Granted it is going to take you years to learn what you need to consistantly produce superior pups.
Wouldn't you rather produce pups that can hang with the best of them out there in the trials? It is totally possible and anyone can do it. You just need to apply yourself and you will have increased success everytime you do a new breeding. Everyone takes their lumps when starting out but really, please, try and do it right and don't mess with these recessive washouts with these new colors.
I am also going to tell you one thing. You can breed two field champions together, and if you don't don't get the inbreeding coefficient right, you might as well of bred your great female to ODIE down the block becaues you have just as much of a chance getting a an entire litter of superior puppies.
This is why it is so much to do your research and pick the proper breeder, do your homework on them and make sure they know what they are doing, ranther then picking a particular litter
I really hope I didn't offend you or anyone else but I know that is probably not possible. I would be happy to assist anyone who is trying to advance their knowledge on canine genetics. It isn't an easy thing to learn and when I asked Rob what he wanted for helping me so much his reply was, just help new people that are getting into the breeding business and I have many times and continue to do it when people want help.
For some reason most real quality breeders don't want to share their knowledge yet these are the same people that bitch when someone is trying to get into breeding and are seriously trying to do it the right way. That is disapointing.
The one thing I don't understand about AKC, you have to pass tests for many other progras they have. Why not have to pass a test on your knowledge as a breeder before you are able to register litters. That would really start to increase the quality of our hunting breeds. Actually it would benefit all breeds.
Anyway, I am sorry for such a long letter but this is a topic that is very concerning to me. Take care and I really do hope you try and educate yourself on proper breeding. You need to learn how to calculate inbreeding coefficients, properly research certain dogs you are thnking of breeding to, learn to read their genetic codes, reverse linked genes, genotype, fenotype and several other codes you need to know to properly increase the quality of your dogs. You can actually do it in a hurry if you want to apply yourself.
You have a real advantage of having the internet now. We didn't have that twenty years ago.
Anyway, take care and I hope the training and breeding come alone for you. I truely do but if you continue to breed those recessive genes together you are just looking for serious defects down the road with your puppies and have to end up shelling out the purchase price back or another puppy.
I would always replace the dog with another puppy. Most often the family has become to attached to the dog to return the puppy or started dog. In this situation it is a judgement call on your part and I am really saying whether you decide they have to return the original pup or not. The thing is if you can get the records from the persons vet, I normally let them keep their pup or started dog and send them out a new one. People really do deserve to get what they are paying for.
I find it hard to believe that these dogs with the two recessives stuck together are going to have health free lives. I know most breeders only guarantee thier pups for two years. We personally guarentee our dogs for life. If it is a started dog they are dams sure they are going to get exactly what they what they were looking for in a dog. This is why it is so important to screen your customers carefully to make sure you have the types of pups they are looking for.
I am done for this day. Take care everyone and good training.