Truth be told....

The above quote shows the total lack of credibility on the subject by the poster.
1) In NAVHDA tests, no matter at what level of testing, there is no such thing as 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th place. If so then NAVHDA tests would be competitions. NAVHDA tests, test dogs against a standard and award a prize classification to the dog. Prize 1, Prize 2, prize 3, or a no prize (fail). All dogs could flunk the test (no prize) on a certain day or all pass the test with Prize 3 classifications on a certain day. Ther are no places given in a NAVHDA test. Your NAVHDA history is filled with untruths. Though two "pointing labs" were run by the then president of NAVHDA Bodo Winderfelt those dogs were run at the natural ability level. There is big jump from a natural ability level dog to a complete utility dog. The PL may or may not be able to complete the higher level of testing. It will never be known, as the labrador is not a recognized pointing breed by NAVHDA, so they decided not allow them in the tests. That is NAVHDA's choice. It is hard to disagee with the choice, since all guys say they have a lab that points at least "sometimes". The tests would be filled up with guys and labs that didn't point, when true versatile dogs would have to sit on the side lines because the tests were filled with "pointing labs". It is an organization thing.

As far as the elitist in NAVHDA, NSTRA, etc.....those types exist in every dog organization and testing/trialing venue on the planet. The retriever clubs think the only breeds that can retrieve a duck are labs, goldens, or chessies, so it goes both ways.....Like retrieving a dead duck floating 30 yards out is some great canine feat, that only retriever breeds can do.[:'(]

Doc E

You are correct -- (I was going from an old memory/recollection)I went back through some of my stuff and it was that 3 of 4 Labs entered were awarded "Prize" of some level. My bad -I'll check my info out before posting out of recollection in the future.
30 yard retrieve? 3 month old Labs do 30 yard retrieves. It's the 300 yard marks and blinds that we 'brag' about.



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Doc E

So, what do you think of :
1. NSTRA?
2. NAVHDA?
3. NBDCA?



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AlaskaMagnum

I'll take this one.

NSTRA = is the dog broke? Field seeded with poor birds about the size of a Walmart parking lot. Certianly a dog like Brenda Roe's Snips Ticked Off who can win 30 or some other ridiculous number is something special, but NSTRA does not impress me.

NAVHDA = I know a dog who scored a perfect in the Utility test and qualified for the invitational. She is by far the finest dog I have ever seen, and I have been around to some events for versatiles, pointers, and retrievers. I am working with the woman who trained her, and hopefully my own bearded prospect will qualify for the Invitational one day. A Utility dog is something special, make no doubt about it, they are truly versatile, and they can do it all.

NBDCA- I watched a couple of seasons on it on tv, but have never been to an event. After seeing it on tv, don't think I would be interested. Most of the dogs I saw were half-broke steady to flush, and the majority were not force broke to retrieve. Bad dog work and bad handlers. There was some entertainment to it all though.

DocE - I visit your pointing lab site (assume you are the same DocE) and you guys are really cutting your own throat as far as NAVHDA is concerned. If you guys would just declare yourselves a distinct breed, separate from the regular labs, put forth some breeding guideliens which restrict breedings to PL only, NAVHDA would probably let you test.

Your problem, as I see it, is you guys cannot decide if you want to have PL or field trial labs, so you try to mix and match. How many posts over there are "I havea PL bitch but want to breed to a FC non-pointing lab, is there point in his pedigree".

As Yoda would say, do or do not, there is no try. Make up your mind, establish some breeding criteria, and then the PL might be recognized.

Doc E

That can only berecommended by the "Breed Club" to the AKC. There are a few thousand PLs in the world and Gazillions of non PLs. There is no way they will ever be called a different breed. In fact, they AREN'T a different breed. They are 100% Labrador Retrievers -- they just happen to point instead of flush.

AlaskaMagnum

and that is why you willnever be recognized by NAVHDA. The rules say only "pointing breeds" are allowed. A labrador retriever is not a pointing breed. A pointing labrador retriever would be a pointing breed, but you guys don't want to break off, so you won't get into NAVHDA.

I disagree with the "breed club" being recognized by AKC. NAVDHA is pretty liberal as far as what they consider a breed registry, you could easily establish your own pointing lab breed club, start keeping stud books and establish breeding guidelines. You already have the APLA, if they chose not to enforce breeding restrictions, then it's your clubs fault...not mine.

Don't get me wrong, I kind of like the PL's, but there is no consistency, which is why I won't buy one. Guys breed dogs that point to dogs that don't point, and so on and so on. The breed has suffered. These dogs have been around for going on thirty years...has there been much progress in the breed as far as pointing consistency? You still have breeders that won't guarantee a pup will point. After thirty years, pointing should be a given, but you guys keep diluting your breeding stock with non pointing dogs because you want those damned AFC/FC after the dog.

As a side note, the Deutsch Langhaar and the Large Musterlander pointer are the same dog, only difference is color, the Llewellin setter is still an English setter but the dogs must go back to a specific dog...yet NAVHDA recognizes the four breeds as distinct, because that is how they present themselves.

Really, I don't care, I don't have a dog in this fight, but please don't make statements like "NAVDHA won't let us in because they are afraid a bunch of labs would beat them". It's sour grapes. The dogs could certianly compete, do well, and have success, but they are not allowed in because the PL community wants the rules changed to fit their demands. In other words, quit blaming a good organization like NAVHDA because your organization the APLA is weak and wont develop and enforce a breed registry and breeding restrictions for pointing labs.

Truth be told....

Well being recognized by NAVHDA is no great thing or something I would strive for. NAVHDA papers are worthless as no other organization will let you registered a dog using them. The papers are only good for checking the test scores of your dog's ancestory, those that were tested in NAVHDA. NAVHDA has created its own little social/breeder club. It is all based on test scores and being one of the gang. I know of dogs that were from a "backyard" breeder as NAVHDA would call them who have achieved prize ones and awards from other venues. None of these dogs are even considered for breeding purposes. The owners are not NAVHDA cronies. Most NAVHDA guys are really not hunters. All one needs to do is hang around at a few training days. It becomes all too obvious that all the training is directed toward passing the test, not hunting situations.[&:]

Also I would pretty much agree with Alaska Magnum's evaluation of the other dog venues. I would ad one note of caution on the NAVHDA UT dogs. If the dog is trained by a pro to run in the test, then stay away from it. They are using all sorts of gimmicks in training, to get under achiever dogs to pass the utility tests. The only question you need to ask about the dog is, "how many WILD birds has the dog had shot over it, and what kinds?" Make sure you ask about waterflowl too. All you will get is some stumbling mumbling answer from most NAVHDA guys about how "ol Shooter" would be a great dog if we hunted this or that with him. They are pen raised bird hunting dogs, 90% of them. Cook book trained to pass the test, then bred as some great gift to the hunting dog community. Seen it, know it, have experienced it.[:'(] The NSTRA venue is for parking lot hunters, as that is what the dogs basically run in. I would not feed any Snips dog, no matter how many titles are on it.

You really aren't missing out on anything DocE. Just keep plugging along, and enjoy your dog. He points, he retrieves. He has been judged worthy of merit in several credible dog events . What else can a guy ask for? I have trained and tested next to a dog that went on to become a NAVHDA VC. I would not bring the dog home if I found it on a road wandering. Many UT NAVHDA dogs are way over rated.

Mite

AlaskaMagnum
Do know how hard it is to focus a club in one direction? Especially, stubborn dog people? Even the National Llewellin Gun Dog Club (NLGDC) has been torn up over a minor issue. We are a breed club (I'm a member) that run our own trials on our own rules. Our dogs are basically walking dog type trials so we adopted NSTRA similar style rules. Now, since AF won't recognize NSTRA events, a few people want to be affiliated with NSTRA and some want to stay independant. We had major officers of the club leave because of this. Note: AF is very important to us since they've kept the Llews as a separate registry since the beginning and the club has kept it's ties with AF.So, the club is hosting an open breed derby this year, and woah, all of crap is comming from NSTRA Llew owners.

AlaskaMagnum

Truth be told....this is Alaska dude, everybody hunts, women can wear fur coats down the street, and you can keep pictures of you with your dead fish and game at your desk and nobdoy cares. I will agree some hunting dog clubs are full of bitty women who don't even hunt but think they know exactly what a hunting dog should do, but up here, it just is not the case

I also do not believe NAVHDA is the end all be all of testing, and their registration is good for well....getting into NAVHDA events. The PL people want a place to test their dogs against other breeds that are versatile, and the JGHV sure as hell is not going to be hosting PL's anytime soon, so NAVHDA seems to be their only logical option right now.

Mite - seems like from your post, you already know the correct direction to take. There was a big bruhaha at the Deutsch Kurzhaar club because some guys wanted to keep breeders from breeding to shorthairs, others wanted to be able to breed their Kurzhaars to the shorthairs and still remain in good standing with the breed club. The mixers lost, let's see what shakes out because of it.

daleh

Any one care to put their money were their mouth is?
Field Trial open to any pointing breed on the first weekend in April.
It will be judged accordingly to American Field Standards.
i will personaly put up $1000.00 against any thing that points!!