I apoligize for posting this artical and tremble in the presence of those who know every damn thing there is to know and proudly claim me a stupid know nothing imbasol not elgable to be in thier presence. I will keep my garbage to myself and bow low before the mighty 460 Weatherby. I Will stick to cottontail hunting with mt lowly 45-70.. Man I hope someday I will be as smart as some of you. Never happen though, I am already to old.

Hey James B I know how you feel but in posting there is always a risk. I wonder why African hunters think we don't have "big game" here. Ever hear of a Buffalo or Grizzle bear or Moose....etc. Some of the pigs here in Nevada go over 500 lbs and are tough pot lickers I'm telling you. If we could only talk about the 375 H&H and bigger what fun would that be. I find it more interesting that Bill Ruger (I think) took all that African big game with a 44 rem mag handgun. Condesention is for weak minds with a vocabulary.

I won't say that the .45-70 is a good choice for africa, but I won't say that a .243win is a good choice for moose, nor a .308win a good choice for black bear-but they've both been used for their respective game for years.

Ernst Hemmingway used a .30-06 back in 1936 over in Africa, for lions, buffalo (I haven't been able to find out if they were capes or water B's), and rhinos, Teddy Roosevelt also used a springfield on a nine month safari back in 1909-mostly for varied plains game and lion, both of which are well documented historically-you won't convince me that the .30-06 is a good choice for an african hunting round, but it's been used successfully.

There are now factory +P loads available for the .45-70 that push it to 3500ft.lbs., and I've seen reloading data that would push it nearer to 4000ft.lbs. (although I've never had reason to load it in any of my .45-70's.). Teddy Roosevelt also used the historic .405Winchester in the Winchester Model-1895 for many cape buffalo, the .405win pushed a bullet to 3300ft.lbs., so why is a .411" bullet at 3300ft.lbs. enough when a .458" bullet at 3300ft.lbs. isn't?

I've worked with American bison all of my life and hunted them a good deal as well. I won't say that bison are as tough as C.B.'s, even my experience can easily defeat that notion, however, mature bison can often outweigh mature C.B.'s by 15-25%, and I've successfully hunted them with a .44mag revolver, and I've seen countless prairie bison over the last 20yrs or so (you get paid by the gov't to do nothing more than feed them and maintain herd numbers) fall to .30WCF's. C.B.'s are tough, but they aren't immortal...you've even got a documented account in front of you that proves the .45-70 has more than enough penetration to kill two C.B.'s consecutively, why fight it?

Again, I won't say that it's a good choice, but it wouldn't necessarily be a terrible one...like I said, I'd never take it on my first hunting trip acrossed the pond (I've been over twice for photography "hunts" and as a photographer for two hunts my uncles went on-it's a lot cheaper to take snapshots than gunshots), but might consider it if I were to go back (BTW, my first hunting trip should be within two years=graduation present from my grandparents). A .223rem will kill deer if you place it right, but it won't kill by hydrostatic shock, so people favor something larger that will "stop them in their tracks", you're not going to kill a C.B. by hydrostatic shock from one shot at least-even if you're using a .458Lott, they mostly die from hemorhage or massive trauma, which the .45-70 can provide.

JamesB,

I've been following this one a little off and on and then responded today without reviewing who started the post, how what I wrote might "hit" others further back in the thread -- it was to Vapodog only. When I saw your response above and then went back and read my post and then followed the thread backwards to where you started it and I can see that it looked a lot like a personal attack on you.

We have been kicking this around plenty over in the African Hunting Section of www.accuratereloading.com and though I believe the bulk of what I mentioned is accurate for this NA dominated forum, I have edited my post and stripped out most of what should have been the offensive "he's talking about ME" language.

What remains of the earlier post is still directed to Vapodog. Sorry for what I have to admit had the APPEARANCE of a very personal attack, THAT was not the intent. While we are frequently at opposite ends of viewpoint; however, I respect your age, long experience and level headed responses through all these months.

BTW, the 45-70 with solids seems to be giving the "ole 45-70" even newer and stronger legs than what it had before -- pretty amazing for a 125 year old cartridge. I had a 45-70 in a Siamese Mauser, so one could "load it up" stout as the case could handle --- it was "okay" --- sold it and put the cash towards the acquisition of a 416 Rigby.

Good Luck and Good Hunting,
EKM

I got a little huffy there sorry about that. I have not been everywhere and done everything but I have been in this sport for many years and I don't take to being talked down to. As someone said above any cartridge that will completly penetrate two Cape buffalo is hardly a minimal cartridge. I thought the artical was interesting and I know that many here are interested in the old 45-70. It was for them that I posted the artical which can be found in the March 2004 issue of Rifle magazine. The American Bison was nearly wiped off the face of the earth with the black powder loads of the 45-70. With the new Garret and Corbon loads it is a formidable weapon in the hands of a decent shot. On paper it does not stack up to some of the super magnums but with bullets up to 550 grains and velocity to 2000 fps, there isen't much in NA or Africa that will can't be cleanly killed with this rifle. The Ruger number one is a fine rifle that will squezz the last drop of Velocity from this cartridge. However the above loads work well through the Marlin and the Chamber pressures are listed in the artical as well. 28000-30000 was the cup for the corbon 405 penetrater. from the marlin barrel it clocked 1800 fps.

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I also read the article, at the beginning of the hunt the PH was dubious about the choice of cartridge but after several kills started to change his mind after seeing its performance and the discretion of the shooter. Are there other cartridges better suited for an African safari, sure there are, but are they required to cleanly harvest an animal, no. Besides it is my understanding that in the majority of countries in question the minimum caliber is .375.

Jamesb ...I read the article and it was pretty impressive... very maligned cartridge in todays world of mighty shoulder thumpers aka field artillery but nevertheless a very effective cartridge when used within its restraints... I have seen some game hit with a 45/70 Deer and Elk and they fold on the spot . Can't say the same for these Hypervelocity supermagnums that everyone uses. Brian Pearce proved the worth of the 45/70 albeit not against Elephant but against the game(Plains game and Cape Buffalo) he hunted it did very well. Anyone not agreeing send him a note c/o Rifle magazine.

I would have said go for it. But last year at my gun range, I met a seasoned fella, who had all these scars. Said he shot with his 375 HH at a cape buff and didn't get a second shot off. Said his PH kinda abandoned him but came back a few seconds later with a few natives, and was able to shoot and spook the bull off. It was a very humbling conversation. Said he missed 3 months of work over that dissaster. I don't know why, but I made up my mind right then that a 460Weatherby would be my gun if going after Cape Buff. For some reason seriously, I just don't see the Cape as a fun animal to hunt. There is nothing graceful or beutiful about him. Kinda discusting looking when you get close to a dead one. Its not that I am scared. I am sure it would get my heart pounding. My dream hunt is to go to Kodiak with a bow. With good backup of course.

But shoot, you guys go ahead and take the 45-70 and come back to tell us how it did on the cape. Ain't my skin.

FWIW,

When done right and everything goes right it, killing a Cape Buffalo is not supposed to be substantially more difficult than killing a big "bossy cow" AS LONG AS they are undisturbed when you pop them and you pop them right. Violate either of those two conditions and the "bossy cow" goes away and is replaced with something you don't want to see.

The problem that arises for many is that Cape Buffalo are herd animals and there are lots of eyes and ears to detect you, so after a long stalk the bull you want may not show himself in the open except on the far side of the herd and then you could be looking at a "longish" shot for a 45-70 and there you are in a far away land, $15,000 poorer -- the bull is there (undisturbed) -- you are there -- no shot -- you stalk some more -- cows get wind of you or see you -- and they AND your bull are gone. With a 375 or 416 or 458Lott you just reach out and pop him while he's undisturbed right where he's at -- opportunity fulfilled and distance buys some safety. [I am NOT talking 250 yard shooting here.]

Now to the other extreme -- a "jackpot" scenario --- a close, but disturbed Cape Buffalo Bull and complicated by the fact that there is just a "small" chance your "in the field shooting" may not quite measure up to your "always perfect internet shooting". It is a plum good time to have BOTH "The Big Four" of killing power AND some good shooting on your part -- a shortage of either could make for a bad day. Kind of like an engine not firing on all its cylinders -- might run, might get you there, but ain't reliable nor predictable.

Once you've done your job placing a bullet (maybe only two since it's close) the rest will play out according to the "killing power" of what you chose to bring to the dance --- first TKO INDEX (large frontal area + plus reasonable performance), PENETRATION (solids out of anything tend penetrate amazingly well [per the 45-70 article]), ENERGY (5000 to 6000 pounds), and HYDROSTATIC SHOCK (over 2,100 fps).

IMHO the 45-70 does commendably well on the first two components of killing power; however, its fairly weak on the second two forcing you to pass on shots others would take successfully and easily. Dropping to sub-458WinMag velocities to achieve penetration (still don't buy that one) leaves you short on Energy and Hydrostatic shock.

Personally, if I'm going to be out $15,000 and only have a 7 to 10 days to get it all done, and am going to be facing something that can take my life (easily) then I want to be able to shoot 'em close or shoot 'em medium range with something as close as I can get to a managable version of the proverbial "Hammer of Thor". The rifle and myself will be firing on "all cylinders" and with no fundamental compromises.

Two other things,

One, while I want a good PH, experienced, caring, and heavily armed. With that said ---- I put NO reliance on him saving me from anything in a jackpot situation, for that I will count only on myself and the choices I bring with me ---- if help comes fine, but I'm not banking my hide on it.

Two, Americans seem to be "media susceptible".... they will put their trust in a magazine article over doing their own due diligence by talking with folks that have "been there" and "done that" multiple times and ask ones own questions probing the opinion giver for the "rest of the story" and the full set of trade offs that were involved with no commercial benefit at play. In my plans, I will count on the latter. Check out www.accuratereloading.com. My $.02

Good Luck and Good Hunting,
EKM