James B

I must comment on this also. If a person reads, I don't care what you read. Gun magazine, news papers, Medical books, it matters not. Reading can teach us many times more that we can ever have time to expierence on our own. That is one thing that is supposed to set us apart from the other animals. Several times I have seen dirt kicked in the faces of people on these forums for conveying things they read or studied such as self defense methods or this artical. Someone will say You can't save your life by reading a book. Or only expierence can teach you something. Well I sure hope my doctors have read some books and learned from mistakes and not kill me just for training.I don't know about all people but when I read something and take an interest in it, I am not about to take one persons word for what works and what don't. Anyone with half a brain is going to research the hell out of a hunt before they lay out that kind of cash. The Artical in question left no doubt that not just anyone can pick up a 45-70 and go on Safari. Pierce has been on many and used in Africa everything from the 17 HMR to the 460 Weatherby. I am sure that just because the hunter BELL killed 2000 elephants with the 757 mauser that most people even with a dim light upstairs would not attempt to duplicate that feat as explained in the old Hornady manual. Give a little credit to some of use who read about that kind of hunting. I never even hinted that the 45-70 is a great DG gun. In the hands Of pierce who was told by the PH that he was a good shot and had already seen him take Zebra and the other big antelope. He had already seen him shoot and saw the penetration of his loads. Then and only then did he ok the rifle for Cape buffalo. And they did have a hard time getting a shot and stalked him three of four times to get an open shot. I will most likely never get a chance to go back there to hunt but I will continue to read and who knows? If I do I will take a 416 Rem mag which I have a lot of hours in on. And yes I may take a 45-70 along. I have been shooting them for thirty years and know pretty much how they work.

Buckshot

Oh gheez take a pill, you still havent answered my question about how the much penetration you need to kill a buffalo. The bullet went thru 2 of them, like I said before what more could you ask. You guys are starting to sound like Graig (needs a freaking magnum) Boddington.

ELKampMaster

Hmmmmm,

I knew that Bell had killed just over a 1000 elephant, I hadn't heard he was clear up to 2000 head -- that guy must be getting really old by now and must also be really rich as well to have "pushed up" his tally in today's expensive elephant hunting market.

Bell started out with shooting all number of rifles, including in the later years his favorite the 7x57 with full metal solids. Of course at this point, he had established himself as one of the best shots in all of Africa, and after the first 500 elephant he was a bloody bloomin' EXPERT in how to take them down (practice makes perfect). Today's relative novices (with only 0,1,2,3, .... or even 20 elephants to their credit) who might want to copy him will never have the same depth of experience Bell acquired and especially on such unsophisticated, undisturbed, naive game --- his personal best being 19 bulls in one day (no reference given as to what he used). This tidying up of the details might just make a "minor" difference in the telling of the "BELL" story when applying the assumptions to this century's hunters and their respective choice of weapons.

For your amusement, I copied a small handful of signature lines from the African Hunting forum for your review, these boys (having been there and done it many times) have a little different viewpoint versus NA; you may find the last one the most entertaining.

*** "In nature there are neither rewards or punishments - but there are consequences"

*** "Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun."

*** "When you follow your buff into the thornbush, it is unlikely you’ll find comfort in repeating to yourself, “Well, Bell killed elephants with a 7x57!"


Good Luck and Good Hunting

EKM

akbound

Hi JamesB,

You forgot to mention that before Bell went to the "big" .275 Rigby, (aka. 7X57 Mauser), he used the smaller still .256 Mannlicher with fairly regular success. I guess after a few instances of "close calls" he called it quits with the "little" .256 and jumped to the 7mm's bigger 175 grain bullet. Which penetrated even better than the .256's had. (That ought to stir a few pots!)

Okay........now before a bunch of you guys jump all over me. I'd like an opportunity to say a few other things. One.....this forum is for the expressed purpose of "fellow hunters" getting together to share information and ideas. (Which we do.) Two.....as was already pointed out numerous times.....in numerous threads, posts, etc. we don't always have to reach the same conclusions. (But I do believe it is very important that we "add footnotes"......so to speak.......to clarify issues for some of the newer hunters that visit this site.) Three......I think most of us agree that many different weapons can work when they are in the right hands. And therein lies the crux of the problem! They don't always end up in the right hands! And because of that....we see bad results in the field because of misuse, poor judgement, and inexperience!

Sometimes we should add qualifiers simply because we don't "know the audience" we are addressing. But sometimes I think, generally speaking, as a group we tend to be quick to "jump on" each other about some of these things.....without asking for a clarification either! (The only good thing to come of most of those incidents is that we generally recognize it after the fact......and resolve those differences.)

I guess in the end.....human nature being what it is......that isn't likely to change much! So let me add one other note....if I may. When, (notice I didn't say if, because I know I have, will, and do), I do this to one of you guys......in addition to the apology I offer then. Be aware that I am not always conscious that I've done it........frequently.......until after the fact....when I'm going back again to reread the entire thread again. And it then becomes blatantly apparent!

Oh heck......what did I just say? Now I'm starting to sound like one of them psychooloologists......psiychologysts....psyscholl lloogoolg.....oh s**t. You know what I mean! Just go ahead and jump on me......and get it over with!

Dave

ELKampMaster

Buckshot,

Read upstream and you'll find the answer to your question, "killing power" does not live on penetration alone, especially when the game may decide to dance on you before it dies. The prohibition on solids by many states for big game hunting is attibutable to the problem of wounding/killing of multiple animals (even with modest cartridges) and the fact they do not transfer their energy particularly well.

I really would encourage the two of you to go over together and get out of the fluff and into the bush and give it a go and keep track of each others comfort levels as you approach the black.
---------------------------------------------------------

AK,

You were doing pretty good there for the first 80%....

Good Luck and Good Hunting,

EKM

James B

In my first old Hornady Manual they said he killed 2000 elephants but who knows if they were even counting. If they did they probably wrote it down and I quess you can't believe anything you read regardless of who wrote it. Any further articals I might find will be mentioned only by the name of the Magazine and the month. Although I am not apt to make the same blunder again. Now I have got to go back and read it all again and see if I can find where I recommended or even suggested that anyone take a copy of that magazine and an old 45-70 and tiptoe through the elephant grass looking for a sabertooth Buffalo. Here is to a 460 Weatherby Ackley approved for everone.

Now nobody will be undergunned.

bigbulls

I'm not going to get into the 45-70 effectiveness on dangerous game debate since I have no "Africa" experiance at all, but I would like to ask a queation though.

If the 375 H&H is considered the required minimum in most African hunts then how do hunters get away with hunting cape buffalo with revolvers in 44 mag, 454 Casull, 480 Ruger, 475 Linnebaugh, 500 S&W and the such?

Do they just have big gonads and more money than they know what to do with? Or is it just for publicity?

I think I would opt for a 45-70 over any of the revolver cartriges available.

James B

I think the laws vary from country to country. I am sure that many of these animals are killed on game farms. I have read of people doing it with the big handguns but I don't know if some countries allow it or not. It has been done though. Someone who is an excellent shot can do a lot with any gun that has suffician power to get to the vitals. I am with you though. If I had to try it would be with a 45-70 as apposed to a handgun. Some of the big handguns have the power But I for one am no longer profiscient enough to try it. Chicken too

Briman

There was an article in outdoor life/F&S awhile back about bowhunting for elephants. The guy made a bad shot and the story didn't turn out too well for the hunters. A bad shot can be made with any big magnum and still have disasterous results.

I'll never have the priviledge of hunting in Africa, and I'm not a big fan of big magnums, but if I were given the chance to hunt something that not only has the potential to stomp me into paste but the inclination to, I'll be using the biggest artillery that I can shoulder.

James B

Briman You hit it right on your first part. A weapon with enough power to get to the vitals in the hands of someone who can accomplish that task is all it takes and it will work every time. DG has been hit with weapons a lot bigger than the 45-70 and still stomped or ate the hunter. It always comes back to shot placement. If there was a sure thing for DG that worked perfect every time then no game would be dangerous. As I said before I would take a 416 Remington magnum because I am very well aquanted with that rifle. The only point I started to make before the whips and chains came out is that a rifle that can shoot through two Cape Buffalo has the ability to take some big tough critters. I will stand by that statement to the end . Put away the rubber hoses and stuff.