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DRT Frangible Ammo
Does anyone know the specifics on DRT ammo? They are starting to advertise on some of the hunting shows.
It is another company promising instant kills with properly placed shots. I guess the bullets do not make an exit wound. |
RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
Check out this thread. I dont know exact specifics on any of it, and have not seen any for sale.
http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=2487521 |
RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
Thanks. I searched the wrong forum.
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RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
"A leathal powder of particles...."
That is what they say in one of those videos. Now, I don't want to eat any metal powder, so I guess you just throw away all the meat around the bullet wound? I also wonder if the bullet will "splash" if you were to hit the shoulder bone. |
RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
Holly Smokes! This is what a supposed DRT rep wrote on another site:
"You are correct in that there will be some meat loss. But, (and I know this is not PC) you can do like many of the hunters that are using our ammo are doing and that is make a gut shot. The animal is still down right where you hit him and the wound cavity is contained in the gut area with no damage to harvestable meat. Believe me when I say we have tested this on everything out there from pigs to Elk and Grizzlies. If anyone wishes they can contact me off forum and I can send them pictures of game taken with our ammunition, I will include yardage, caliber and weight of the round with each picture. On a Whitetail vital shot our 150 grain 308 will enter 2 inches and disperse in the next 6 to 8 inches leaving a permanent wound cavity that will be about 4 1/2 inches in diameter and about 8 inches long. One thing I want to mention up front about our ammo, we have the ability to offer custom rounds. By this I mean that because of the nature of our composite we can control the depth of penetration before dispersion byadjusting the thickness of the waffled tin cap. Proportionately, we can control the amount of dispersion by adjusting the mix of the powders. We can take the same 150 grain 308 load and by adjusting the mix of the powders and adjusting the thickness of the tin cap we can have the round penetrate 3 inches and disperse in the next 4-6 inches leaving a wound cavity that would be 3 -4 inches in diameter and only 6 inches in length. So, in essence what we have developed is a round that can be taylored to the specific hunter's needs. For example, with all of our rifle rounds and slight adjustments there is ZERO deflection through glass. We have shown this time and again and have just returned from New Hampshire where we performed a live fire demo for the American Sniper Association on that very capability. My email is [email protected] or [email protected] ." |
RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
But, (and I know this is not PC) you can do like many of the hunters that are using our ammo are doing and that is make a gut shot. The animal is still down right where you hit him and the wound cavity is contained in the gut area with no damage to harvestable meat. The world is full of idiots, and this statement just proves it. |
RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
I saw their booth at a gun show recently. I didn't understand how a bullet that is less dense than lead and disintegrates on impact would be better for hunting or self-defense.
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RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
I understand what they're talking about, but its not for me. The bullet essentulally explodes after penetration, therefore releasing all of its energy into its target. But with only so much penetration, I think longrifle is right, I beleive if you hit a bone directly; it would just splash. This would leave the deer with a broken leg, a gaping wound, and you would never find the deer. I will admit that this would be a fun varmint round, but thats it.
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RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
Well, thee terminal action of this bullet sounds alot like what the front half of the Nosler Partition bullet is supposed to do-essentially expand explosivelyon penetration into the body cavity, leaving the rear section intact to continue penetrating. I suppose thefragments of the front core remain larger than mere dust. But they have to spread out and leave lead shards all over...........
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RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
A word of warning. If you send an email to the address I posted above you will end up on a mailing list for DRT info.
I did receive some info that I thought was interesting though. Check out the price for a box of shells. Almost $4 per shell for some calibers. Rifle calibers Caliber/Weight/Cost per box of 20 Cartridges/Cost per box of 50 bullets for reloading .22387$24.50 plus shipping$22.50 plus shipping 243107$25.00 plus shipping$23.50 plus shipping 270130$27.00 plus shipping$26.50 plus shipping 30/06150$60.00 plus shipping$45.00 plus shipping 30/06175$77.00 plus shipping$47.50 plus shipping 30/30SAME AS 30/06 308SAME AS 30/06 300 H&H175$77.00 plus shipping$47.50 plus shipping 300 H&H200$87.00 plus shipping$50.00 plus shipping 300 WinMagSAME AS 300 H&H 300 WBYSAME AS 300 H&H Pistol Calibers Caliber/Weight/Cost per box of 50 cartridges 9mm124$45.00 plus shipping 38 SPC124$45.00 plus shipping 40 SW180$47.50 plus shipping 45 ACP185$50.00 plus shipping |
RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
Having worked on this technology for over a decade, and having killed many elk, bear, and deer with these bullets in tests and on video, I will tell you that these bullets work much better than lead core bullets. These bullets are denser than lead, not the other way around. Keep in mind that some Weatherby rounds are over 4 dollars per round in lead these days. This bullet technology has less wind deflection than lead boatails, and the hardness of the cores is taylored to the penetration profile need for game shot with the caliber chosen. Anyone that has not had lead bullet fragments in their downed game, or ruined a little meat, has not hunted much.
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RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
ORIGINAL: longrifle1000 "A leathal powder of particles...." No thanks...... the rock salt/seasoning duck shot was a better idea than this. |
RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
Sounds like this is similiar in performance to a Glaser Safety Slug
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RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
ORIGINAL: S1 Anyone that has not had lead bullet fragments in their downed game, or ruined a little meat, has not hunted much. I'm not one to get on an ethics train and rain holier than thou down on folks, but personally I wouldn't put my name next to a company whose sales reps are promoting gut shots to reduce meat loss. Thats curing a headache by cutting off the head and makes about as much sense as a square tire. |
RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
Yet another gimmick comes down the pipe that thousands of people will come running after with money in hand hoping yet again this will make up for their lack of practice and decent marksmanship skills...while as usual..the animals and their own ear drums suffer tremendously...
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RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
I would prefer not to dress a gut shot animal if I can help it. Sure as hell am not going to do it on purpose.
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RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
I would prefer not to dress a gut shot animal if I can help it. Sure as hell am not going to do it on purpose. |
RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
Hmmmm.... bullet that disintegrates on impact, leaves no exit wound and either instantly drops game or wounds them and condemns them to slow death- sounds a lot like a 245 grain Powerbelt pushed by 150 grains of powder except more expensive (sorry, this is for those of you who shoot muzzleloaders). Seriously - can anyone be advocating this for deer-sized game??? Might be great on varmits, but on medium-large game all I can see is a recipie for disaster...
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RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
I had enough trouble years ago with 139 gr. bullets out of my 7 mag at slightly less than 3300 fps doing exactly that at ranges of 100 yds. or less, until I wised up. And it didn't cost $4.00 a shot to get the effect.
Nope, no thanks !! Been there, done that.......( well not the gutshot part...) |
RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
I find it amazing that some shooters here have never tested the technology, but some how know exactly how it will perform? Do tell, where do you get your crystal ball?
"Yet another gimmick comes down the pipe that thousands of people will come running after with money in hand hoping yet again this will make up for their lack of practice and decent marksmanship skills......." If you have not shot both technologies, compared them side by side, then you should not be talking smack about something you know absolutely nothing about. The 200 grain PT 30 caliber bores a 1/2 inch diameter hole in the shoulder of an Elk, liquifies the lungs, 1/2 of the heart, and the top 1/3 of the liver. Not to mention the animal drops to the ground like a puppet with the strings cut. NOT EVEN A STEP! Done this more than 5 times on bulls, 3 black bears, 1 grizzly, and countless deer. Sorry ...Deleted by CalHunter... but it is what it is. When these lead bullet manufacturers claim their "Partition retained 82 percent of its weight" on a recovered bullet, where do you suppose the other 18 percent went?:D |
RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
So basically what you are saying is that you feel so confident about the product, its ballistics, it killing power, and itstechnologythat your willing to give all of us simple people a free box to test it against our current bullet of choice and report back to you what we feel is better for our hunting styles?
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RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
OK...they are just a gimmick, that is why the counter snipers that guard our President use them, and why DevGRU uses them, and why the AMU has thousands of them in storage and refuses to use them because they are an "unfair advantage against civiilians" in comps like Camp Perry. I guess a few of you geniuses should know, that the last time I checked, the Secret Service Counter snipers have markmanship skills, and do practice.......NavSurfWarDEVGRU has an ammo budget larger than some countries GNP.....we know they practice. When it comes to killing, tissue damage is the measure. In the real world, lead bullets don't hold a candle to this new technology. And who on earth could say "just shoot them in the gut"? That sounds incredibly unethical to me. At least that is what I was taught. |
RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
Sounds like the Extreme Shock ammo, except for rifles....
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RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
If we can get past all of the BS from the guys who have not used this technology, and truly know nothing about it, I think I can explain how the technology works, and perhaps some will see it has real utility in some applications. Lets get some facts on the table upfront.....
1. I do not advocate gut shooting an animal, it is not necessary. I will never advocate this. 2. There are two schools of thought concerning terminal ballistics in a hunting environment. The first is "Don't over penetrate, use all of energy of the projectile to cause tissue damage." The second school of thought is, "Make sure you have a large exit wound so the blood trail is easy to track." Although both methods will kill game, we know that the first method is more efficient and will kill quicker, all other criteria being equal. We know this from Fackler's research, and from live tissue tests and other data collected. I much prefer an animal to fall in his tracks, I know right where to find him, especially on dangerous game. No one wants to follow a blood trail into tall grass or dense brush looking for a wounded brown bear, no matter how good the 'blood trail' is........Deleted by CalHunter... 3. DRT bullets are not the same technology as 'Extreme Shok' ammo. The cores are different and the jackets are different. The lead bullet engineer has several tools at his disposal when designing a bullet for a specific application...... A. Jacket thickness and shape B. Percent alloy of lead and antimony (more antimony = harder core) C. Bonding of core to jacket. D. Tip design, (hollow point, lead point, polymer tipped) The DRT engineer has several additional tools that effect bullet performance in a profound way..... A. Core compression B. Percent binder added to the tungsten C. The size and shape of the tungsten particle |
RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
So what happens if they hit bone?
They sound like a great varmint round, I may pick up some for the .243 and give them a try, or just wait and get some from my Secret Service friends....if they even use them....:eek: |
RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
Boy !! Thanks for enlightening us !! I know for one that I feel much better about it now. ...Deleted by CalHunter...
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RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
ORIGINAL: S1 I find it amazing that some shooters here have never tested the technology, but some how know exactly how it will perform? Do tell, where do you get your crystal ball? "Yet another gimmick comes down the pipe that thousands of people will come running after with money in hand hoping yet again this will make up for their lack of practice and decent marksmanship skills......." OK...they are just a gimmick, that is why the counter snipers that guard our President use them, and why DevGRU uses them, and why the AMU has thousands of them in storage and refuses to use them because they are an "unfair advantage against civiilians" in comps like Camp Perry. I guess a few of you ...Deleted by CalHunter... should know, that the last time I checked, the Secret Service Counter snipers have markmanship skills, and do practice.......NavSurfWarDEVGRU has an ammo budget larger than some countries GNP.....we know they practice. When it comes to killing, tissue damage is the measure. In the real world, lead bullets don't hold a candle to this new technology. So if you can't grow up and call a spade a spade, then get a clue. If you have not shot both technologies, compared them side by side, then you should not be talking smack about something you know absolutely nothing about. The 200 grain PT 30 caliber bores a 1/2 inch diameter hole in the shoulder of an Elk, liquifies the lungs, 1/2 of the heart, and the top 1/3 of the liver. Not to mention the animal drops to the ground like a puppet with the strings cut. NOT EVEN A STEP! Done this more than 5 times on bulls, 3 black bears, 1 grizzly, and countless deer. Sorry to wake the clueless from deep slumber, but it is what it is. When these lead bullet manufacturers claim their "Partition retained 82 percent of its weight" on a recovered bullet, where do you rocket scientists suppose the other 18 percent went?:D Isnt that special!!! Why should I have to get a clue when theres genisues out there like you that already know everything and will tell me without me even having to try it or ask about it? Damn I feel enlightened!! Nothing like making a bad hit or a direct heavy bone hit and leaving a festering wound that will kill the animal....3 days later! Hell yeah...now we dont even have to gut them quarter them or nothing and the buzzards will be forever grateful!! As far as knowing which method of killing of more effective I guess we will have to take your word for it since we are all clueless!! :D So good for the president of the company to come out and tell us his research trumps our hundreds of years of collective experience as a board. WOW!! Good luck and hopefully you can sell a box or 2...again I say they will work great for people that cant shoot straight especially after the gut shot theory. I can hear it now.."I knew the conditions werent right for the shot but they told me because of their endless research that all I had to do was hit it and it would DRT!!! Now where there hell did it go?" As far as growing up...good luck at that also... I might not know a spade from a club but I do knowa zealotwith an obvious agenda from a satisfied customer. I will keep your bullets in mind though if I ever become a sniper or get a job with the secret service.....or see a deer or elk masquerading as a terrorist!! Its magic!! Magic I tell ya!!! Wooohoooo!! |
RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
OK...they are just a gimmick, that is why the counter snipers that guard our President use them, and why DevGRU uses them, and why the AMU has thousands of them in storage and refuses to use them because they are an "unfair advantage against civiilians" in comps like Camp Perry. I guess a few of you ...Deleted by CalHunter... should know, that the last time I checked, the Secret Service Counter snipers have markmanship skills, and do practice.......NavSurfWarDEVGRU has an ammo budget larger than some countries GNP.....we know they practice. |
RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
ORIGINAL: Doe Dumper So good for the president of the company to come out and tell us his research trumps our hundreds of years of collective experience as a board. That being said, I too would like to hear a response to the questions posed about bone penetration. |
RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
ORIGINAL: S1 If we can get past all of the BS from the guys who have not used this technology, and truly know nothing about it, I think I can explain how the technology works, and perhaps some will see it has real utility in some applications. Lets get some facts on the table upfront..... 1. I do not advocate gut shooting an animal, it is not necessary. I will never advocate this. 2. There are two schools of thought concerning terminal ballistics in a hunting environment. The first is "Don't over penetrate, use all of energy of the projectile to cause tissue damage." The second school of thought is, "Make sure you have a large exit wound so the blood trail is easy to track." Although both methods will kill game, we know that the first method is more efficient and will kill quicker, all other criteria being equal. We know this from Fackler's research, and from live tissue tests and other data collected. I much prefer an animal to fall in his tracks, I know right where to find him, especially on dangerous game. No one wants to follow a blood trail into tall grass or dense brush looking for a wounded brown bear, no matter how good the 'blood trail' is........Deleted by CalHunter... Stop beating around the bear here (thats a pun.... get it). What is a hunter to do when he hits a shoulder bone? How have these bullets performed versus bone. Because I can tell you how my solid copper and copper/lead bullets have performed when they met bone, and it didn't involve the theory of "energy dumping". |
RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
"What? Martin Fackler's research found that the 'theory' (as in not a LAW) of hydrostatic shock was disproven, and that any sort of pressure wave that may be created by a bullet does nothing to aid in incapacitation or injury. Moreover, it is a commonly known fact amoung people who study terminal ballistics (which is really a fairly new field of reseach) that shockwaves do not occur, nor pass through incompressable fluids (water)."
...Deleted by CalHunter...You believe that shockwaves do not pass through incompressable fluids (water)?:D There are a lot of dead Germans that wish that BS was true.... please explain how a Depth charge actually works? Marty Fackler worked on the research and development of this technology, I never mentioned 'hydrostatic shock' in any of my posts. I specifically referred to "tissue damage" some like to call the "permanent wound". Getting back to what is real, the bullet engineer can use core compression to tailor the round to the penetration profile he desires with this technology. For example: There is no truth to the statement that these bullets are designed to 'disintegrate on impact'. Tungsten is much harder than lead, and about 25 percent denser than lead in these type of bullets. Even the lightest compressed cores that I have tested easily penetrate the front shoulder bone of the largest North American Big Game. I specifically look for a quartering towards me shot opportunity so I can blow bone fragments into the lung area when using this bullet technology. ...Deleted by CalHunter... |
RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
ORIGINAL: S1 ...Deleted by CalHunter... You believe that shockwaves do not pass through incompressable fluids (water)?:D There are a lot of dead Germans that wish that BS was true.....so in that dark space you call a 'mind' please explain how a Depth charge actually works? Marty Fackler worked on the research and development of this technology, so save your incoherant dribble for the peanut gallery, they are the only ones that will buy your BS. I never mentioned 'hydrostatic shock' in any of my posts. I specifically referred to "tissue damage" some like to call the "permanent wound". Getting back to what is real, the bullet engineer can use core compression to tailor the round to the penetration profile he desires with this technology. For example: If you want a 200 grain 30 cal. bullet to enter the chest of a grown man and not have lethal sized projectiles exiting, you may want to use 65 percent tungsten and 35 percent binder, and then compress the core at 8,000 PSI. If you need a 200 grain 30 cal. bullet to penetrate a diesel engine block, you may choose to use 85 percent tungsten, and 15 percent binder, and then compress the core at 200,000 PSI. This bullet will easily perform to AP requirements and beyond. In fact, at this core compression, the bullet behaves much like a monolithic tungsten solid. There is no truth to the statement that these bullets are designed to 'disintegrate on impact'. Tungsten is much harder than lead, and about 25 percent denser than lead in our core's format. Even the lightest compressed cores that I have tested easily penetrate the front shoulder bone of the largest North American Big Game. I specifically look for a quartering towards me shot opportunity so I can blow bone fragments into the lung area when using this bullet technology. It seems to me, with your views on quartering to shots, that you are treating this new bullet design very much like a solid bullet, using the bone fragments as a weapon of their own making. The part that I do not understand is how you are going to make a bullet going over 3000 fps completely stop inside a whitetail deer without having that bullet break up? Without having it crater. If all this is fairly new technology, than you'll have to pardon my ignorance about it. But it seems to me that this sort of thing is typically what hunters seek to avoid in bullet performance. Not having an animal drop to the shot, but rather having a bullet break up in the animal. ...Deleted by CalHunter... As far as proof, the Navy and SS have used these rounds for over a decade, long before any of you even heard of this technology. ...Deleted by CalHunter... I will provide proof with no problem, just put 1,000 bucks up, and we can settle this publicly right on this forum. |
RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
"Dead Right There" is a pure myth, unless you hit the perfect head/spine shot! You are better off using the proper expanding bullet for the size of game, and the velocities that your cartridge is producing, than to rely on "DRT" performance!
And, I can't believe that a bullet maker would propose a "Gut Shot" as an effective form of hunting! ...Deleted by CalHunter... |
RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
Well for starters, my question still remains unanswered. I am not saying these things don't work. Just explain to me how the company can make the claim it turns to powder in the target, yet is able to penetrate heavy bone. Making one or the other is easy, how on earth can they do both.
I decided to go back to the DRT website and look around. I found it odd that they still really don't have a website. There is some info, but not very much. I was reading through there "building a better bullet" and almost burst out laughing. I found this section on the second page.  7.62mm NATO is the bullet fired from the AK-47????????????????? Not the same cartridge, not even the same caliber!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It is chambered in 7.62X39, NOT 7.62X51 NATO. And the caliber is .311", not .308. I seriously doubt ANY information from company that could make such a rookie mistake. And as for the "wound that is about the dimensions of a size 5 soccer ball", I didn't know soccer balls came in different sizes. And where is the proof of this claim? Show me a slab of balistics gel, that shows wound dimensions and penetration depths. Until then, I see this nothing more than a big steamy pile of BS. |
RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
S1,
I think the part that really turns "real" hunters off about your product is advocating gut shots. Even if this did work no one wants to clean a gut shot animal. The tenderloins are shot and it just a messy job even if this kind of thing doesn't bother you. So talking about gut shooting a deer was a bad move. Even being associated with that sentiment is a bad move. Folks here have asked you about a shoulder bone and you haven't answered. You should even if it won't which we already know. Also I would be concerned about a bullet that disintegrates on impact from a what's in the meat perspective. Does the disintegrating bullet leave the chest cavity in most cases? Swamp, He hasn't talked about hydrostatic shock. He's talking about imparting all the energy behind the bullet into the animal. I believe these are two different subjects. One is kind of like an energy wave trasmitted by the bullet. He's saying his bullet doesn't leave so the energy must be transferred. Overall I think a bullet of this design could work. I bet it still needs refinement but I could see it working with a really hard tip to break through bone and holding together enough so as not to get into the meat. Also as part of the marketing campaign leave out the part about the gut shot. I could see a picture of deer walking near a road with it's entrails hanging out making the PETA paper and CNN with your companies logo right there. One last thing the price is disturbing. Tom |
RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
"Show me a slab of balistics gel, that shows wound dimensions and penetration depths.
Until then, I see this nothing more than a big steamy pile of BS." Ditto to that. Also, I find it seriously doubtful that the Secret Service counter-sniper squad uses frangible ammo. I'd really like to see the proof of that. Imagine a counter-sniper taking a shot at a wannabe presidential assassin who happens to be standing behind a car door, or wearing body armor for that matter. I'm sure that whatever loads they use are designed to penetrate structures and body armor and still reach a potential assassin, not bullets that disintigrate on impact. |
RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
ORIGINAL: SwampCollie Of course it is. Why you feel the need to insult someone to prove your ponit is beyond me. Unless you are a mere child posing as an adult, or simply too ignorant on the topic at hand to support your claims with simple concise facts. I asked you a simple question about how your bullets performed on bone. It took you half a dozen slanderous insults and a bunch of crap about diesel engine blocks to finally get around to it. Original: statjunk S1, I think the part that really turns "real" hunters off about your product is advocating gut shots. Even if this did work no one wants to clean a gut shot animal. The tenderloins are shot and it just a messy job even if this kind of thing doesn't bother you. So talking about gut shooting a deer was a bad move. Even being associated with that sentiment is a bad move. I'm still having some problem with the concept that these bullets will hold together well enough to penetrate a shoulder bone, but then create this massive wound channel, disbursing all of the bullet's energy inside the game, and not exit. |
RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
I saw these on futureweapons tv show last year. The binder holds them together and gives the structural integrity. Think of picking up a dirt clog off of the ground. It is kind of hard but brittle. You can throw it very hard and it will stay together until impact when it basically explodes. The high velocity of the rifle round carries the energy into the target. On the show they shot two large beef roast. The regular round did what we are familiar with. Made a hole and kind of blew out some of the back of the roast. The frangible round blew the roast into shreds. In slow motion, it looked like a small grenade went off inside, like and old M-80 and an anthill. The secret service uses them to protect bystanders, no ricochets and no over penetration. They are against the Hauge(edit) convention. I for one would not eat an animal that had been shot by one. I don’t need any more metal powder in my diet. If all you want is the horns then it is your decision, you just are not going to hunt with me. I think I’ll give the Berger VLD bullets a try instead.
mello |
RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
They are against the geneva convention. I for one would not eat an animal that had been shot by one. I don’t need any more metal powder in my diet. I still find it highly suspect that there website still says "coming soon". Either bad business practices, or they don't have any real proof to back up there claims. |
RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
I guess what ticks me off the most about the man's posts is that he seems to get a bit of an "attitude" about things, and just because we don't fall to our knees and thank him for saving us from our errant ways of lead and copper, we are basically addle-pated idiots for even questioning these things.
That's just not gonna cut it on here. He's done stepped in a big pile, and probably alienated a bunch of us already. Not exactly what I would want as a spokesperson for the company. |
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