RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
 

Your right ipsc, and I will be the first to apologize to S1. These bullets are cool, I just dont think they would be good for medium to large game animals. If S1 could provide me with proof that this bullet, that I can purchase (not what the military uses), I mean bullets that they sell to the public, will penetrate a shoulder bone, then I will purchase a box. (provided you make them 7mm wsm!)

RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
 

It would have been nice if the discussion could have been a little more polite on both sides. It's a good thing to learn about new technology, and a rancorous discussion is not conducive to learning... None of us have experience with this round, therefore, it is not appropriate to simply dismiss it out of hand. On the other hand, it is appropriate to ask questions about things like bone penetration and to point out that no real hunter is going to intentionally gut shoot an animal. It's also appropriate to vigorously defend your product. But a degree of civility should be exercised on all sides.

RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
 

They do come in sizes. A size 5 is the largest, and is standard for high school, collegiate and FIFA play. Essentially, its regulation size. It has a diameter right around 8 inches, and a circumference of between 27-28" to comply with international rules. The smaller sizes are used for smaller players, such as younger children. For perspective purposes, its larger than a volleyball and slightly smaller than a basketball.

An 8" diameter wound cavity on a whitetail deer, at least on your average size doe in my part of the world, may very well cut it in half.

S1, good luck with your future endeavors.

RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
 

If it's still edible then you could carry it more easily!

I'm still waiting for a bullet that will dress and butcher a deer. Just have to dust the meat off and put it in butcher paper.

Tom

RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
 

Huh, learn something new every day.

And again I will state: My question has still not been answered. I'm not saying it doesn't work. But I'm not going to blindly follow along without these substantial claims being explained.

RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
 

I have answered the bone question in a previous post, here it is again for those of you that were adjusting your monitors or may have missed it.

"There is no truth to the statement that these bullets are designed to 'disintegrate on impact'. Tungsten is much harder than lead, and about 25 percent denser than lead in our core's format. Even the lightest compressed cores that I have tested easily penetrate the front shoulder bone of the largest North American Big Game. I specifically look for a quartering towards me shot opportunity so I can blow bone fragments into the lung area when using this bullet technology.:eek:

Notice that this answer was in a post that was NEVER EDITED. It shows how fake and misleading certain posters are claiming that I never addressed the question about the shoulder bone performance. For the record, I have shot many elk, several bears, a moose, and countless deer, all were quartering towards me shots where even the lightest compressed cores had no problem penetrating the shoulder bones.

It is a shame that some are so misleading as to claim I have not addressed this issue. While we are at it, lets revisit some of the other myths these ladies continue to try and propagate.


1. I do not advocate gut shooting animals, NEVER HAVE, NEVER WILL.

2. I do not own any shares in the company or own any of the patents. I have no financial stake in their success of failure.

3. I am a trained sniper and mechanical engineer, and have tested most of these products for accuracy, external and terminal ballistics at extreme range.

4. I have hunted with these projectiles for over a decade, and have deployed with these projectiles. I have witnessed many other people kill with these projectiles and filmed some of the events.

5. If you can not understand what variable core compression can do for a penetration profile, there is no helping you and I will not explain it again. Leave this bullet technology to the professionals and keep shooting lead, I don't care.

6. Swamppuppy, please put your money where your mouth is, I am holding the proof, and a dishonest POS like you needs a lesson. I am not going anywhere, and I am sure a guy like longrifle 1000 will hold the cash.

7. If you have a 30 cal. magnum, you can always buy a box of 200 grainers and split them up among your friends and go kill something, kind of like "CLUE YOUR SELF IN".

8. These bullets are denser than lead, and more lethal. These are no gimmick as some of the liars have claimed. This technology has been in the hands of our best operators for over a DECADE, and has proven itself thousands of times in the real world, you know, that place some of you refuse to visit.

RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
 

FU or pha-q how ever you want it buddy. People asked questions or were a little skeptical and you got your panties in a wad.
By the way I cannot even imagine the amount of blood shot meat these would cause!

Longrifle,
Thanks. I always get those confused.

mello

RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
 

MC - Say that BS to my face, and we can get it worked out real quick. It is not my fault your too stupid to read. It seems you get a lot confused. Your just a myth making, cake eating skirt, with absolutely no clue.

RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
 

How sweet.

RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
 

My address is

906 Tiffay Court
Cayce SC 29033

RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
 

Info on where this type of ammo was researched as a non-toxic alternative to lead.

http://www.ms.ornl.gov/researchgroups/SPM/methods/powder/NTammo/Ntammo.htm


Link to Extreme shock’s version in 308win impacting gel.

vid

RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
 

edit

RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
 

I addressed the shoulder bone issue specifically on page 2 of this thread,

"If you have not shot both technologies, compared them side by side, then you should not be talking smack about something you know absolutely nothing about. The 200 grain PT 30 caliber bores a 1/2 inch diameter hole in the shoulder of an Elk, liquifies the lungs, 1/2 of the heart, and the top 1/3 of the liver. Not to mention the animal drops to the ground like a puppet with the strings cut. "


I addressed it again on page 4,

"There is no truth to the statement that these bullets are designed to 'disintegrate on impact'. Tungsten is much harder than lead, and about 25 percent denser than lead in our core's format. Even the lightest compressed cores that I have tested easily penetrate the front shoulder bone of the largest North American Big Game. I specifically look for a quartering towards me shot opportunity so I can blow bone fragments into the lung area when using this bullet technology."


On page 2 swamp puppy says this,

"SwampCollie
titleAndStar(2268,0,false,false,"","")Non-Typical


[align=center][/align]
Posts: 2268
Joined: 11/14/2006
From: Where the ducks don't come no more
Status: offline [blockquote]quote:

ORIGINAL: longrifle1000

"A leathal powder of particles...."

[/blockquote]

"Thats an oxy-moron. I'm with you longrifle, I'd bet money it would splash on bone... heck its designed to splash."


Some of you ladies are not the only ones with questions. I answered the bone question multiple times, now I have a few questions.....


1. How much money does Swamp puppy want to bet these bullets will splash on shoulder bone? I am in for how ever much cash you put up.



2. How much money are the liars willing to bet against the fact that the SS uses this bullet technology for their CS units? I am in for however much money you all put up.


Simple questions ladies, how much can you afford to lose?

RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
 

S1 - You really need to work on your sales techniques. I find the bullets intriguing. Not sure I understand how they penetrate bone and then create the soccer ball size wound tracks, but, I've not seen the tests or used the bullets, so I take you at your word. I tried to defend you a bit, above, and called for a bit of civility from both sides in this discussion. That being said, your defense of your product here has been extraordinarily unprofessional, and I wouldn't use your bullets if you were giving them away.

...Deleted by CalHunter... all of that garbage is uncalled for. You can keep your bullets.

RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
 

S1,

Lets see something in writing about the Secret Sevice using them.

Lets see some pics of animals that you have shot with them.

Lets see some pics of gel tests.

Lets see a pic of you holding one in your hand.

RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
 

ipscshooter - I am not selling anything, and I certainly don't need you to defend JS. You and your buds are so missinformed and full of BS, it is amazing anyone trusts y'all with firearms of anykind.

"adjusting skirts" ... "ladies" ... all of that garbage is uncalled for."

You and your buds started the garbage and misinformation, all from a bunch of punks that never even bothered to shoot one bullet of the newer technology. Talking smack about something you know nothing about is garbage. It is the kind of thing chicks do, not grown mature men. If you read the thread from beggining to end, it is obvious to any honest person who started the garbage and BS. I don't care if you understand how things work, you probably don't fully understand the exothermic reaction the takes place in the car you drive, but you still get from point A to point B with it.

Its is not by job to educate you. It is a free country, and that means you are free to remain as ignorant as you choose. Set your standards as low as you like. You don't have to take my word for it. The research is out there and in the public domain, try google. The most amazing thing is how completely ignorant so many supposed "shooters" on this forum actually are of technology that has been in the public domain for almost half of a decade. Some of you are about as sharp as a bowling ball.:D

RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
 

I am not selling anything, just setting the record straight on the misinformation in the thread. Put your money where your mouth is JeepKid, I got everthing you need.

RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
 

Ahh heck forget it.... everyoneon shooting forums is a "trained sniper" with 10,000 kills andcan beat up everybody withone arm tied behind their back. I stand by what I said before, S1 make all the threats you want to, I'm sure when you were in the military you liked men in"skirts" which is why you so fondly call all of us such things..... I wonder what Freud woudl say?

I'm out of this one... keep on posting slanderouslies aboutme if you like. I didn't post anything on this thread that isn't support by evidence, or just simply my subjective opinion.

RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
 

I didn't start anything. I wasn't talking smack. I wasn't espousing any uninformed BS. I was asking for a civil discussion so that I could learn about the product. One of the guys even apologized to you as a result of my request for civility. Yet, you continue with calling people names. Since, you think everyone here is uninformed, stupid, ignorant, sharp as a bowling ball, punks, chicks, etc., etc., etc., why do you even bother hanging around? You're not interested in a civil discussion of the product. Take your nine posts and Leave.

RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
 

Swamppuppy - Why should I send you bullets when you can buy them like a grown man and test them yourself? Are you lame? I told you how they performed in my tests, and you ignored my answers to the bone question and continued to BS everbody. Your crap fills the end of page 3 and most of Page 4 in this thread. You even quoted my answer to your "bone question" and then later in the same post said I never addressed it.

You are the king of crap, and I am still curious, where did you get your crystal ball? Here is another one of your 'Civil Quotes'.


"No thanks...... the rock salt/seasoning duck shot was a better idea than this."


Unfortunately for you, this bullet tech is not an 'IDEA'. It has been around for over a decade and a half. Harold Beal and Marty Fackler were designing and making these before the mid 1990's.


You are the one that started the bet crap, here is yet another example......

" I'll make a bet with you. I'll bet you won't send me those bullets. "

It appears you have the gambling issues. You put out the challenge, it is time for you to man up and put your money where your mouth is....or go iron your skirt.

RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
 

You keep wanting to make some bet... Iuse a cliche and everybody takes it to the bank! Why would I pay money for something that I think is snake oil? I'm not going to bother with them because I don't give a rip what the "SS" uses. I'm not some paramilitary elite GI Joeguy. I'm a hunter. All of this rambling and acronyms doesn't amount to anything. I don't care what other people do. I can shoot. I don't need "sniper training" or a bullet that makes a hole size of a soccer ball to harvest game.

Everyone on this thread took you literally when you said that you had worked on the design of this bullet. Now you start backing out and spinning what you said. Using a product in its developmental stages isn't exactly working on it.

No.

I haven't BS'd anybody. All I did was call BS. And I still am.

Most of what I see is your crap, and everyone else calling BS on you.

Everything starts as an idea... does it not?

I suppose this is why you shouldn't use cliche's.... people tend to get carried away. Point in case proven here.

No if you will kindly get over your obsecession with dragging me back into this topic, I'll leave it be.

RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
 

" You're not interested in a civil discussion of the product. Take your nine posts and Leave."

I started with a civil discussion of the technology. It was your buddies that brought on the crap and continue to heap on the BS. You and your girlfriends are dead wrong about the original issues of bullet technology on this thread, and have done nothing but throw up smoke screens to hide your ignorance. I bet you would like to kill the messenger at this point, you have not been right about anything.

ipscshooter - Do you need your mommy?:D

RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
 

What? You want me to PAY you so you can prove how good of a bullet it is? Are you serious? Your the one that needs to put up or....you know the rest. ;)

RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
 

Man, you don't quit do you. I'm 50 years old and have been practicing law for 25 years. I shoot sporting clays and IPSC matches competitively, have been deer hunting for the last 10 years or so, am a life member of the NRA, and hold a martial arts black belt. No, I don't "need my mommy". All I wanted was a civil discussion, not a bunch of insults from someone who has never met me, and knows less about me than I know about his bullets...

RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
 

Swamp puppy says, " I haven't BS'd anybody. All I did was call BS. And I still am."

" Everything starts as an idea... does it not? "

There have been two points of contention (Myths) from some of the morons here......

1. The Secret Service does not use this ammo

2. The bullets won't penetrate shoulder bone.


Unfortunately for Swamppuppy and the other morons, the evidence that proves y'all clueless is already in the public domain. So it is past time for me to call BS on a bunch of mouthy know nothing punks.

As far as the second issue about bone penetration, just order the Video of Irlene Mandrell drilling a Gemsbock in Africa with the 200 grain bullet. The show was aired and called "Expedition Safari" and reruns can be watched on the VS. channel if you are cheap or just lame.

So how much harder do you need to be smacked with your own BS flag....?

RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
 

edit

RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
 

You answered ONE out of FOUR.

And of course you answered the one that doesn't really mean anything to us hunters or really to anyone since you could have made all those numbers up...;)

RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
 

IPSCSHOOTER - "All I wanted was a civil discussion,"

Yeah, that is all I wanted, but that is not what we got. What we got was a bunch of wifflesticks making claims about bullets they have never even fired one time, much less killed anything with it. You can BS an idiot, but not an operator. Too bad your buds ran their fool mouths about something I have used for over a decade.


Jeepunk - Get a job, then you can afford a TV or a VHS. Not my job to educate a lazy punk like you.

RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
 

Its pretty simple, SHOW US SOME PROOF THAT THEY WORK! Don't just say that the SS uses them so they must be be best thing since sliced bread.

CONVINCE US!

RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
 

The only way a moron like you will be convinced is to kill something yourself with them, now we are back to you actually getting a job, see how hard life can be for a slacker? Your skull is thicker than any shoulder bone, so why not test first on your own skull.....and let us know how it works.....it will probably just splash.....:D:D:D

RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
 

Jonnybravado chicken sh-T She died 15 years ago. Lucky for her she never had to meet a POS like you. We will meet some day, and I look forward to the event. I have relatives that live in Saginaw, can't wait to see you....

RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
 

I've heard people (military/government) using frangible ammunition.
I guess standard FMJ doesn't always cut it;)

RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
 

The tone of this one was a little better, at least as directed to me. Thank you. I think we would all be better served if everyone on both sides of the discussion would try to moderate the tone used. I admit that I don't know much about your bullets. I've been perfectly content hunting relatively small-bodied Texas Hill Country deer using Remington PSP Core-Lokt and Winchester Power Point ammo, and have never had reason to research frangible ammo. Not having an engineering background, and just thinking about it logically, it's difficult to understand how a bullet will both penetrate bone AND create these huge soccer ball sized wound channels AND not exit.

Let me see if I can structure a couple of questions that can help resolve the penetration issue. I understand that you use compression of the tungsten cores to vary the amount of penetration that the bullets will achieve. As a result of the use of the more densely compressed cores, you are able to achieve penetration not only of bone, but of engine blocks, etc... There are also claims that the bullet somehow releases this cloud of tungsten particulate matter within the game, which creates these huge wound channels, expends all the energy within the game, and doesn't exit. Logically, it seems to me that this would require less core compression. My question is, does the bullet achieve both, or is it an either/or situation? That is, do the bullets which are sufficiently dense to penetrate heavy bone, still do the "explosive" type of wound channel, or do they fully penetrate? Or, is it more or less a trial and error deal where you experiment until you find the perfect core compression that achieves the balance of penetration/explosiveness that you need for a particular situation?

RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
 

Don't forget guys, the ONE testimonial on their website is of a guy that shot a deer with a .223 from 25 yards and the deer ran 20 yards before falling. So much for "dead right there"....:eek:

RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
 

Here's one from the customer testimonials on the drtammo website.

http://www.drtammo.com/testim011508.pdf

Small 8 point, that ran 20 yards after being hit by an 87 gr. 223. The customer describes the wound channel, etc.

Sounds like virtually the same performance I've gotten from my .243.

RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
 

ipsc,

See my post above yours.

RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
 

Yeah, I saw it. You posted it while I was typing my response.

RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
 

"My question is, does the bullet achieve both, or is it an either/or situation?"

This technology allows the bullet maker to make a core that is much harder than lead and will penetrate much farther than lead. It also allows the bullet maker to make a core that is more frangible than a lead bullet. The control mechanism is the amount of binder used, and how much pressure is used to bond the core particles. For example, the S.E.A.L. teams use a 79 grain frangible bullet that will break up very quickly on a hard surface because they work taking down ships and oil rigs that have many vertical steel surfaces in the operating environment, and they have suffered richochet type injuries with M855 and other lead bullets. It is much safer for them to use the super frangible core. The interesting thing is that tungsten is much harder than lead, and denser than lead. This fact allows the tungsten to penetrate farther than lead and do more tissue damage even after it has begun to frange.


One bullet can not "Do it all". The nature of tungsten allows a wider performance envelope than lead, especially when dealing with glass, and hard surfaces less than 3 inches thick, like a 'shoulder bone'.


That is, do the bullets which are sufficiently dense to penetrate heavy bone, still do the "explosive" type of wound channel, or do they fully penetrate?

Yes, they do. Typically when I hit an Elk on the front shoulder, there is about a 1/2 inch round hole in front of the shoulder bone, and some major bone fragments blown off the back, or inside of the the shoulder. In this situation, the lungs are liquid goo, and the bullet has completely franged in the chest cavity and there is no exit wound. In a different situation, I double lunged a Moose from a broad side shot, and broke a rib going in with a small entrance wound, and left a volley ball sizd exit wound on the far side. In both cases the bullet franged, but at different depths. On the elk, the franging starts seriously about 4 inches inside, and on the moose, it began about 7 inches in.


Or, is it more or less a trial and error deal where you experiment until you find the perfect core compression that achieves the balance of penetration/explosiveness that you need for a particular situation?

That is exactly what it was. We started with tests on live pigs, and then went to neck shooting elk, and then full on shoulder shots of moose and large bears. Most recently the testing has been on African game with some very large calibers, but I am not involved in those tests, and they are ongoing. We did not just experiment with core compression, we also changed the size of the particles, and the ratio of powders. We even found a combo that would give you a 240 grain 30 cal. boatail that was the size of a 168 Sierra Matchking. This core was very dense, and way too hard for hunting, it acted like a pass through arrow with no broadhead. Small hole going in, and coming out. There was major testing done to find the right compression and density to achieve reliable penetration and frangiblilty at the right depth.

RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
 

Jeep...Deleted by CalHunter... - Here is a link to a pic, ...Deleted by CalHunter...

http://artactical.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/529608905/m/117105955

RE: DRT Frangible Ammo
 

Thanks for the information.