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Duffy

I enjoyed reading O'Connor and agree with much that he wrote. He used a variety of cartridges but so many people(wrongly) figure he only used the 270.

I once read a piece by Carmichell where he told O'Connor he was having a custom rifle built. Carmichell said it was to be in a 270 to please Jack even though he really favored a 280. Apparently Jack took Carmichell aside and told him that the 280 was probably a better round to have his custom gun chambered in.

To the original question, sometimes people are "overgunned" and sometimes they are "undergunned". If you can shoot a big powerful rifle you may need the extra power sometime so you might as well have it.

Robin

kodiakhuntmaster

John G said what I was tring to say but couldn't find the right words.

"Hey ya'll, watch this"

7mmUltraMag

Hey, after reading all the replies, I guess we should all be hunting Deer/Elk/Bears with a 30-30. What I'm hearing is bullet placement, and construction is whats important not how flat, or how much energy the cartridge has. This being said, I guess Jack O'Connor was promoting a cartridge that fits the over-gunned catagory..right? After all 30-30s have taken more deer than any cartridge..right? I would like to see one of the anti-magnum folks on a Big bear hunt, one that bites back with a .270. Come on, as far as I'm concerned, there is no such thing as over-kill. I droped a 5 point Buck this past season at 130 yards with my 7mm RUM in its tracks, and didn't experience anymore meat loss than if I would have used a non-magnum. I will be using the 7mm RUM from now on. Hey, if a magnum is to much for you to handle, be a man/woman and just admit it, don't knock it.....

keith meador

i really have no argument here. i have used a .243 for years and have never lost a deer. i have never killed a deer with a 30-30, but have seen several dead deer as a result of its use, evidently, it worked as well.

i now have a 300rum and a 7mag. i have harvested deer with the 7mag and have yet to shoot a deer with the 300rum, but im anxious to try it out.

i use the 1000ftlb rule. if the bullet energy drops below that level, the deer is out of range. that being said, if the weapon i am using has 1000ftlb of energy left at 450yrds, i will take the shot. i have taken several deer past 300yrds with 100gr sierra bullets out of a 243, and the end result was success.

are we overgunned? probably. will the big magnums and the ultra mags perform better than the smaller non magnum calibers? definately. i think a lot of folks just use what they want. i like trying different things on deer. is a bigger gun overkill, i will just say that it will kill. dead is dead.

at what point do we determine that a gun is too large, or that a particular bullet is incorrect for deer sized game? i hunt only whitetails, and very seldom do we have deer over 170lbs, with 90 to 100lb does being the norm as of late. i like the 7mag for the extended range it offers me, and the ability to finish at the end of a 400yd trip. the 243 will definately do the job, but, i have had a few deer, that dropped in their tracks, but had no exit wound, and a small entrance wound. could i have recovered that deer had it run? maybe, maybe not. i hunt open field almost exclusivly, and have the opportunity to stretch the legs on my guns, and welcome the opportunity. i am not a ballistics expert, but i educate myself on the rounds i use, and shoot them at longer ranges to prove to myself the ballistics tables, velocity, and trajectory are correct. i shot on the service rifle team in the military with the m14 and m1a. we shot frequently at 600 yards and i have had the privalage of shooting some 1000 yard matches. very imtimidating to say the least. most of our guns are capable of shooting the distances with some level of accuracy, if we spend the time to shoot them and get a load that works, the only limiting factor is the 1000ftlb rule that i use.

i do not take careless shots, and do not take a shot i feel i cannot make. i probably shot more rounds in the military on the rifle team than most people shoot in a lifetime, (the average deer hunter) excluding some of the folks on here who shoot very often.

am i overgunned, i sure hope so. i want a humane kill.

as for jack conner, i, to my knowledge, have never read anything he has written. i have had the great opportunity to meet carlos hathcock at the winston p wilson matches in little rock arkansas prior to his death. he was truely a great man, and very knowledgable about shooting long range.

rednekhuntr

I think what it comes down to is that everyone has an opinion, and we all think ours is the right one. Do you NEED a gun larger than a .270? No, but a lot of guys out there want one. Bowhunters kill all forms of North American game with what is basically a sharp stick. If you want to shoot a 50 BMG for squirrels, then by all means do so. The thing that bothers me, is when we start condemning each other because we have differences of opinion. I shoot pretty much everything with a .308. Do I think that people who use a 30-30, or a .375 RUM are wrong? No, 'cause it's their choice, and they've got as much right to make that choice as I have to make mine. As long as some jack@$$ ain't telling me that I'm wrong 'cause my choice is different than his, then I say use whatever you want that's legal, and enjoy yourself doing it.

You can't eat what you miss!

kodiakhuntmaster

7UM, we should all hunt deer/elk/bear with 30-30's? Where did you come up with that conclution? I think most people that are anti magnum aren't so because they can't shoot one, just they don't like the noise and kick associated with them when they can do just as good with something more mild. The 30-30 marlin is my favorite gun, but remember what I said about using a gun suited to what you hunt? well deer hunting is about the only thing a 30-30 is suited for. That's not to say that other calibers won't work better, because about anything will. We all base alot of points on the 30-30 because we think of it as the minimum for deer.

Everyone does have an opinion, wheather you want to hunt whitetail with a 375, or a bow, as long as you put them down ethicly it doesn't matter. I'm not, anti magnum. I am against people that say you NEED a magnum or folks that think that magnums are unethical.

"Hey ya'll, watch this"

Goodguy

I have followed this thread since the first post thinking from the outset it would surely generate a lot of discussion and that no clear winner would emerge. It has been a most interesting read with the varying opinions expressed and rational offered. Some I agree with, others I do not. However, like rednekhunter said; there’s no right or wrong. It depends on what an individual believes is the right gun for the job based on his or her knowledge, experience, style & type of hunting and personal biases. Personally I think the 270 is more than enough for deer, adequate for elk, marginal for moose and inadequate for large bear. I like the 7mm.08 for deer and 300 mag. for moose and I’ve had venison and moose in my freezer for several years running, which proves to me that these are the ideal calibers. Would I trade these two rifles for a 270? Not on your life. Would I criticize a fellow hunter who uses a 270? Not on your life. gg.

"The older a man gets, the farther he had to walk to school as a boy"

Edited by - goodguy on 01/30/2003 15:45:21

seattlesetters

Really, all I meant by "Jack O'Connor was right," is that ole Jack knew that a single well-made bullet, placed with surgical precision, is the best and most humane killer of game. Toward this end, he advocated cartridges that were adequate for the job but that provided the least recoil possible so that the shooter could indeed place his/her bullets accurately.

He wan't just a .270 guy. He liked the .375 H&H for dangerous game, and it is by law the minimum for that purpose in most African countries. He liked the .358 Win as a brush round, but found it difficult to promote due to the fact that his main rivals of the time, Elmer Keith and Col. Townsend Whelen, had their own .333 OKH and .35 Whelen respectively, therefore he would in theory be advocating their approaches by endorsing the .358. He even developed his own cartridge which kicked even less than the .358, the .338 O'Connor, which was merely a 7x57 necked up, but he never did anything with it lest his efforts be interpreted as props to his contemporaries.

He often said that the 7x57 was the best all-around cartridge because it did everything the .30-06-based rounds could do, but with less recoil.

My thinking in starting this thread (and I must admit it has been one of the best forums of discussion we've had in a long time) was to advocate his theory of placing the bullet in a lethal spot every time, and not depending on the power of a magnum cartridge to hopefully compensate for taking a bad shot. Toward this end, there has been excellent and learned discourse on both sides of the magnum fence, and we can learn from all the wisdom posted here.

I have no problem with anyone shooting anything they can handle. In fact, my favorite rifle is a .270 Weatherby MAGNUM. I just don't want anyone shooting an elk in the ass because they think their big cannon will still bring it down.

Good Dogwork and Good Hunting

oldelkhunter

Yes we as a group are overgunned...doctors in a couple of years will be treating a bunch of tone deaf shooters who will also have nerve damage in their neck and shoulders because of the beating they are getting shooting these monster magnums. Do we really need a bunch of cartridges that burn 100 grains of powder to shoot a 284 or 30 caliber bullet? Who gives a cr*p if they drop 12" less at 500 yards. I seriously doubt that 99% of the shooters out there can wring the max out of rounds like these. The Real whores are Remington and anyone else coming up with these rounds and then targeting the one box of ammo a year hunter .