nchawkeye

The reasons snipers used the .308 were two-fold, the .308 was develped for the military to replace the 30-06, they found that most soldiers were shooting at 2-300 yards, not 5-600, so faster velocities weren't really needed...Also with the .308 the ammo is lighter, so they could carry more rounds, this is why it was develped...In addition, the .308 being a shorter cartridge is inherently more accurate than either the .270 or the 30-06...Same reason the WSM cartridges were develped...

In a sniper situation, bullet drop is not as important because they use a tactical scope, they simply dial the scope into the range and hold dead on.

younggun308

Well, there we have it.

ipscshooter

I'd really like to see some studies that back that up. Got a source?

Lots of folks here like to cite Chuck Hawks. Here's what he has to say:

http://www.chuckhawks.com/accurate_rifle_cartridges.htm


I thought they were developed in order to sell more rifles to suckers who always think they need the latest and greatest new toy...

retrieverman

I think this would be a better place for a "well, there we have it" than the above post by the poster formerly known as younggun243 (which in his inexperienced opinion used to be the greatest cartridge in the world).

Hello, my name is Jeff, and I am a sucker for a 300 WSM.

ipscshooter

I'm still interested in whether the .308 was adopted as the military sniper cartridge by reason of logistics rather than ballistics.

And, I'm also interested in seeing some empirical data on the alleged "inherent accuracy" advantage of the .308 over the .30-06.

I suspect that the reason the .308 ousted the .30-06 as the caliber of choice in long range matches (i.e. Camp Perry) was because the .308 was chambered in the newer, more accurate M14/M1A whereas the .30-06 was chambered in the older, less accurate M1 Garand. I bet that if you compared apples to apples, say a Rem. Model 700 .308 vs. a Rem. Model 700 .30-06, both with the same optics and with good handloads, you wouldn't see any difference at all in accuracy.

kdvollmer

to Everybody, [/align] I understand that balistically, there are better rifles, and possibly better choices for a tactical rifle. And the true shooters in the military know it too. But we have to play by the rules set by uncle sam. I also used to be part of the school that the .308 was the end all - be all caliber. And I have learned through experience that isn't the case. I great round yes, and tons of uses, but not the ultimate perfect round for all occasions.[/align][/align]ipscshooter: [/align]for the most part, we do not get asay in what rifle or caliber unless you come from a Special Ops Unit. In some infantry units, we might have a choice between a modified M-14 (.308), an M-24 (.308) or the new 5.56 (.223) sniper rifle. I have not seen the issue model of this, so I don't know the nomenclature.[/align][/align] To answer thisquestionipscshooter is for the most part correct. the .308 for military snipers was a logistics issue. the 7.62 Nato round is available anywhere we go to warfromallied forces. Not always match ammo, but ammo is always available. This is the same reason tha there is suchresistance to the military switching to another small arms caliber (I think it was the 6.5 or something like that) if we go to war and need ammo, we wouldbe the only country using it. As it is right now, we get our 5.56 from a lot of countries besides the US. All made to Nato Specs, by Nato countries.[/align] The common military sniping cartridge is 7.62 Nato, or .308 in civilian terms. I know that these are not EXACTLY the same, but in most guns if you can fire one, you can fire the other. At any rate, since military Snipers use this it became popular. Most LE departments did not have dedicated "snipers"years back. Just the guy who was a "sharpshooter" the guy who was a good deer hunter, or shot a lot of squirrels. Then departments started looking to the military to see what they were using, or they had guys with military experience that said, this is what we need to use. This is what I am familiar with...etc. More often than many guys realize, certain calibers get used in the LE field because the military uses or used it first. I don't know that there is a ballistic reason that the military chose the .308. I believe that it was chosen because that is the same round our machine guns fire. That way, when you run out of match ammo, you can always find more ammo in a pinch. This is someting that I think that we are starting to get away from as some units have or are switching to the .300, and some spec ops units are going to the Accuracy International .338 LM. That really is a superb weapon. About 10,000 each I think. That according to the books is the only ( or at least one of the very few)calibers that was develped SPECIFICALLY to be a military Sniper round. Most everything else has been develped by the firearms industry for hunting of one thing or another.[/align][/align]Hope this sheds some light on the matter.[/align][/align]

BigJ71

ipscshooter,

I believe I was watching a program on the Discovery Channel that showed our snipers using .300 win mags. It was pretty cool, the spotters would pick up the vapor trails of the bullets and advise the shooter for his next shot. Again I'm almost positive they were shooting either bolt action Remingtons or Winchesters in .300 win mag.

As far as .270 vs .308 I'm not going to even touch this, I own them both, Ilike them both and I shoot them both. I preferthe .308 only because my favorite hunting rifle is chambered in it and nothing else.

Rammer

I also seen that episode on the Discovery Channel where they were using a 300WM, I think that same show also showed the detail the "armorers" went while handloading for the snipers as well.

BigJ71

Yep Rammer that's the one!

They were as picky as any national match shooter when it came to loading their rounds, it was cool to watch.

kdvollmer

Gentlemen,
as a whole group, the military snipers are not using the .300. There are some spec ops groups using the .300, but not the average sniper section attached to an infantry unit. I CAN GUARUNTEE THIS. We are issued either an M-24, Modified M-14 and some units are getting the new Semi auto .223. The .300 is not even used at the Army Sniper School.
I know that some units use the .300. I have been in those armories, however, I will not discuss who is using them.
As faar as the vap[or trail, or Trace as we call it is concerned, with a good spotting scope, you can watch trace on as small as a .223, maybe a little smaller too. I have see .223. What you need to do to watch this is as a spotter lay as close to the shooter as possible, non firing side generally, focus your spotting scope for about 3/4 of the way down range, and watch. You will see what looks like heat mirage, only going horiaontal insead of vertical. You will know it when you see it.