knockdown power... fact or myth?
09-03-2006, 09:33 AM
#51
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location:
Posts: 218
RE: knockdown power... fact or myth?
My case study #1. I talked to someone that could tell me what happened.
While entering a window to retrieve his lawful custody child my 200lb friend was shot in the right arm with a 357. The bullet shattered the bone above the elbow and broke apart penetrating the skin of the chest cavity in several pieces. He was sitting upright in the window propped securely when the bullet was fired from 5-10 ft, upon striking him it knocked him physically out of the window, he says the force spun and pushed him. He was stunned, like a state of light unconscious instantly. He said the wound was numb until the hospital and had no control of that shoulder/arm.
Final question to him “ believe in knockdown power”? Answer “ $%#* YES!”
By the way he made a full recovery after several operations, the surgeon said large densebone structure saved bullet from entering chest cavity.
I will research more and post findings.
While entering a window to retrieve his lawful custody child my 200lb friend was shot in the right arm with a 357. The bullet shattered the bone above the elbow and broke apart penetrating the skin of the chest cavity in several pieces. He was sitting upright in the window propped securely when the bullet was fired from 5-10 ft, upon striking him it knocked him physically out of the window, he says the force spun and pushed him. He was stunned, like a state of light unconscious instantly. He said the wound was numb until the hospital and had no control of that shoulder/arm.
Final question to him “ believe in knockdown power”? Answer “ $%#* YES!”
By the way he made a full recovery after several operations, the surgeon said large densebone structure saved bullet from entering chest cavity.
I will research more and post findings.
09-03-2006, 10:03 AM
#52
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Texas - BUT NOW in Madison County, NY
Posts: 6,270
RE: knockdown power... fact or myth?
ORIGINAL: Paul L Mohr
Absolutely no way a rifle did that to something the weight of a deer. She probably jumped when he shot her and did a flip. Deer can do some crazy things when shot, and they can jump very high.
I think most of the time when someone thinks they see a deer get knocked off from their feet they had a spasm or jumped when the bullet hit them. I have shot one with a bow and it did the same thing, and there is no way a bow has that much energy, especially mine.Paul
Absolutely no way a rifle did that to something the weight of a deer. She probably jumped when he shot her and did a flip. Deer can do some crazy things when shot, and they can jump very high.
I think most of the time when someone thinks they see a deer get knocked off from their feet they had a spasm or jumped when the bullet hit them. I have shot one with a bow and it did the same thing, and there is no way a bow has that much energy, especially mine.Paul
09-03-2006, 10:06 AM
#53
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Texas - BUT NOW in Madison County, NY
Posts: 6,270
RE: knockdown power... fact or myth?
ORIGINAL: JagMagMan
So now not only the bullet has knock down power, but the recoil of the gun does too!?????
"For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction" pretty much says it all!
Recoil may hurt you, but it doesn't knock anyone down
So now not only the bullet has knock down power, but the recoil of the gun does too!?????
"For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction" pretty much says it all!
Recoil may hurt you, but it doesn't knock anyone down
Try a 2-bore BP elephant rifle, then tell me that again!
09-03-2006, 10:08 AM
#54
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Texas - BUT NOW in Madison County, NY
Posts: 6,270
RE: knockdown power... fact or myth?
ORIGINAL: mello_collins
Newton’s third law is:
“For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.”
“Forces always occur in pairs. If object A exerts a force F on object B,
then object B exerts an equal and opposite force –F on object A”
or in slogan style:
“Every action has an equal and opposite reaction”
The Law of Momentum Conservation The Law of Action-Reaction (Revisited)
A collision is an interaction between two objects, which have made contact (usually) with each other. As in any interaction, a collision results in a force being applied to the two colliding objects. Newton’s laws of motion govern such collisions.
A bullet has no more force than the actual recoil of the rifle. Acceleration and mass are inversely proportional. The acceleration of the rifle (Recoil) is a function of its mass related to the energy released buy the gunpowder. The same can be said of the bullets acceleration. It has less mass thus accelerates at a higher rate. Given a 100 percent transfer of energy into the animal in question it can be assumed that the acceleration of the animal (deer) would be even less than the felt recoil of the rifle. Given that its mass is much greater than the rifle that the bullet came from.
mello
Newton’s third law is:
“For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.”
“Forces always occur in pairs. If object A exerts a force F on object B,
then object B exerts an equal and opposite force –F on object A”
or in slogan style:
“Every action has an equal and opposite reaction”
The Law of Momentum Conservation The Law of Action-Reaction (Revisited)
A collision is an interaction between two objects, which have made contact (usually) with each other. As in any interaction, a collision results in a force being applied to the two colliding objects. Newton’s laws of motion govern such collisions.
A bullet has no more force than the actual recoil of the rifle. Acceleration and mass are inversely proportional. The acceleration of the rifle (Recoil) is a function of its mass related to the energy released buy the gunpowder. The same can be said of the bullets acceleration. It has less mass thus accelerates at a higher rate. Given a 100 percent transfer of energy into the animal in question it can be assumed that the acceleration of the animal (deer) would be even less than the felt recoil of the rifle. Given that its mass is much greater than the rifle that the bullet came from.
mello
For example, some people thinkthat "a .45 ACP bullet will knock a man down regardless of where it strikes him". This too is B.S.! I once watched a demonstration at Fort Bragg NC in which one sergeant fired GI .45 APC Ball ammo at another sergeant's hand who was equipped with a Kevlar "catcher'smitt", with which he was CATCHING THE BULLETS and holding the mitt out palm up so the audience could see the bullet he just caught! Range, about 15 feet. Each time the bullet impacted the mitt, his hand jerked backward some, about the same amount as did the hand of the guy shooting the pistol! I therefore assume the mitt weighed about the same as an M1911A1.
09-03-2006, 11:46 AM
#55
Typical Buck
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location:
Posts: 781
RE: knockdown power... fact or myth?
I cant see newtons law applying to this, the rifle's weight messes that up. A 30-06 bullet shot from a 5lb and 15 lb gun will be very different in recoil, but will shoot the same out of the barrel. so the action is the same, but the reaction is different. the 5lb rifle may not knock you down, but the 15lb rifle definetly will not.
The initial force of the reaction is nullified by the weight of rifle, as the bullet flies clean with nothing to hold it back. So the force of the bullet is harder than the reaction of the recoil.
The initial force of the reaction is nullified by the weight of rifle, as the bullet flies clean with nothing to hold it back. So the force of the bullet is harder than the reaction of the recoil.
09-03-2006, 08:34 PM
#56
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Blissfield MI USA
Posts: 5,293
RE: knockdown power... fact or myth?
I have owned a .357 and shot many things with it including game. They do not have the power to knock a full sized man out of a window. Your friend did not see what he thought he saw. Not saying it didn't happen, it just didn't happen the way he thinks he saw it. A .357 has very minimal power compared to anything you would hunt with. If a slug gun won't do it I can assure you a .357 will not do it.
I did a test years ago with different handguns to see just how much power they had. I got some old ham shoulder roasts and shot them with a .38, .357, 9mm and a 45 ACP. Not one of them actually moved one of the pieces of meat. I don't see them knocking a man down. Dropping one yes, but physically moving someone I doubt it.
Paul
I did a test years ago with different handguns to see just how much power they had. I got some old ham shoulder roasts and shot them with a .38, .357, 9mm and a 45 ACP. Not one of them actually moved one of the pieces of meat. I don't see them knocking a man down. Dropping one yes, but physically moving someone I doubt it.
Paul
09-04-2006, 07:39 PM
#57
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Columbia SC USA
Posts: 376
RE: knockdown power... fact or myth?
Recoil is a function of the rifles mass accelerating backwards. The greater the mass the slower the acceleration for a given amount of energy. The bullet accelerates faster because of its significantly lower mass. Take hot motorcycle engine and put it in a Mack truck look at the difference in acceleration and you’ll get the picture. Same energy, different mass. Same principle
mello
mello
09-04-2006, 09:04 PM
#58
Typical Buck
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location:
Posts: 781
RE: knockdown power... fact or myth?
But the energy of the recoil is not equal to the energy of the bullet out of the barrel due to the weight of the rifle. So the action and the reaction in this case seem very different.
But if I hels a 8lb peice of metal in front of the barrel and my friend fired an 8lb rifle, the hit I take would be the same as the recoil my friend takes??
But if I hels a 8lb peice of metal in front of the barrel and my friend fired an 8lb rifle, the hit I take would be the same as the recoil my friend takes??
09-05-2006, 06:26 AM
#59
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Columbia SC USA
Posts: 376
RE: knockdown power... fact or myth?
Actually they are the same. Your rifle accelerates back wards during the time the powder is still burning in the barrel. This energy is expended over a long time in comparison to the sudden impact in relation to the bullets velocity. Remember the bullet and rifle start at the same velocity ( zero ). The effect of the energy is transferred upon impact is different because of the relative time involved in the reaction, but the energy is the same.
mello
mello
09-08-2006, 06:07 PM
#60
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: MN USA
Posts: 1,392
RE: knockdown power... fact or myth?
The force itself is not going to knock over an a big game animal, if that's what you're getting at. However, the force, expansion, damage it does to vitals organs and breaks bones obviously can and does knock down large animals often. So, yes the characteristics of the slug, powder charge, force,resulting in shock to the animal, significant damage and blood losshas everything to do with bring the animal down fast and for good.
That's what matters, not whether a slug "knocks over" the animal.
That's what matters, not whether a slug "knocks over" the animal.
