knockdown power... fact or myth?
09-02-2006, 05:17 PM
#42
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Columbia SC USA
Posts: 376
RE: knockdown power... fact or myth?
Newton’s third law is:
“For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.”
“Forces always occur in pairs. If object A exerts a force F on object B,
then object B exerts an equal and opposite force –F on object A”
or in slogan style:
“Every action has an equal and opposite reaction”
The Law of Momentum Conservation The Law of Action-Reaction (Revisited)
A collision is an interaction between two objects, which have made contact (usually) with each other. As in any interaction, a collision results in a force being applied to the two colliding objects. Newton’s laws of motion govern such collisions.
A bullet has no more force than the actual recoil of the rifle. Acceleration and mass are inversely proportional. The acceleration of the rifle (Recoil) is a function of its mass related to the energy released buy the gunpowder. The same can be said of the bullets acceleration. It has less mass thus accelerates at a higher rate. Given a 100 percent transfer of energy into the animal in question it can be assumed that the acceleration of the animal (deer) would be even less than the felt recoil of the rifle. Given that its mass is much greater than the rifle that the bullet came from.
mello
“For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.”
“Forces always occur in pairs. If object A exerts a force F on object B,
then object B exerts an equal and opposite force –F on object A”
or in slogan style:
“Every action has an equal and opposite reaction”
The Law of Momentum Conservation The Law of Action-Reaction (Revisited)
A collision is an interaction between two objects, which have made contact (usually) with each other. As in any interaction, a collision results in a force being applied to the two colliding objects. Newton’s laws of motion govern such collisions.
A bullet has no more force than the actual recoil of the rifle. Acceleration and mass are inversely proportional. The acceleration of the rifle (Recoil) is a function of its mass related to the energy released buy the gunpowder. The same can be said of the bullets acceleration. It has less mass thus accelerates at a higher rate. Given a 100 percent transfer of energy into the animal in question it can be assumed that the acceleration of the animal (deer) would be even less than the felt recoil of the rifle. Given that its mass is much greater than the rifle that the bullet came from.
mello
09-02-2006, 07:57 PM
#44
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location:
Posts: 218
RE: knockdown power... fact or myth?
Great point mello. I agree with all you say.
As a kid that was a little creative I decided to create a new load for my 12 ga. I poured wax in a 3 ¾ dram birdshot. When fired it knocked me down literally. I will bet that if you had been walking parallel to me and I had hit you unsuspectingly in your shoulder with that full load of birdshot it would knock you off of your feet. Not just the power of the shot, but the balance of hitting you high on your body, and the rate at which energy was transferred into your body.
In this thread I don’t read anything about the curve of how quickly or slowly the energy of the bullet is dissipated into the target. Powder burn rate and the acceleration of a bullet do affect felt recoil, if you can expend total energy over a longer time it acts like a push more than a punch.
Stand straight up put a shotgun or rifle of power without a recoil pad on the outside of your ribs, or on the side of your head. Pull the trigger, if this does not knock you down or stumble you I will be quite surprised.My point is that the recoil of the gunIS an indication of what I would call knockdown power. If the recoil of a gun stockwere directed on an animal atcertain angles or in certain situationsit would knock it over, then assume that the bullet decelerates faster than it accelerated the felt effect would be even greater.
[ol][/ol]
Though getting tired of this thread, I will do a test I think should prove something gonna ask someone who has been shot what the experience was like. I got a buddy that is a very large man, he was shot in the shoulder with a 357, see what his idea of knockdown power is.
As a kid that was a little creative I decided to create a new load for my 12 ga. I poured wax in a 3 ¾ dram birdshot. When fired it knocked me down literally. I will bet that if you had been walking parallel to me and I had hit you unsuspectingly in your shoulder with that full load of birdshot it would knock you off of your feet. Not just the power of the shot, but the balance of hitting you high on your body, and the rate at which energy was transferred into your body.
In this thread I don’t read anything about the curve of how quickly or slowly the energy of the bullet is dissipated into the target. Powder burn rate and the acceleration of a bullet do affect felt recoil, if you can expend total energy over a longer time it acts like a push more than a punch.
Stand straight up put a shotgun or rifle of power without a recoil pad on the outside of your ribs, or on the side of your head. Pull the trigger, if this does not knock you down or stumble you I will be quite surprised.My point is that the recoil of the gunIS an indication of what I would call knockdown power. If the recoil of a gun stockwere directed on an animal atcertain angles or in certain situationsit would knock it over, then assume that the bullet decelerates faster than it accelerated the felt effect would be even greater.
[ol][/ol]
Though getting tired of this thread, I will do a test I think should prove something gonna ask someone who has been shot what the experience was like. I got a buddy that is a very large man, he was shot in the shoulder with a 357, see what his idea of knockdown power is.
09-02-2006, 08:21 PM
#45
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Port Neches, Texas
Posts: 5,514
RE: knockdown power... fact or myth?
So now not only the bullet has knock down power, but the recoil of the gun does too!?????
"For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction" pretty much says it all!
Recoil may hurt you, but it doesn't knock anyone down
"For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction" pretty much says it all!
Recoil may hurt you, but it doesn't knock anyone down
09-02-2006, 08:47 PM
#46
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Blissfield MI USA
Posts: 5,293
RE: knockdown power... fact or myth?
Actually because the bullet is smaller and has less frontal area it exerts less force than the rifle would. A bullet actaully sheds off energy as it travels through a target rather than hitting it and applying all its force at once. Not to mention the bullet has already traveled a distance where it will also dissipate both speed and energy.
And since the bullet weighs much less it has much less momentum than the rifle did at the shot. And momentum is actually what will move an object in a straight line away from the impact.
Bullets kill by hydrodynamic shock to a viscous medium. This is a result of velocity and bullet expansion. Or a bullet with a large frontal area will do the same thing. This is what causes the wound channel. The larger the wound channel the more effective the round. This is called Stopping Power in most cases. Not knock down power, but they are often confused. It is very possible for a lighter bullet to work better than a heavier one. If that bullet had better expansion and more velocity it could cause a larger wound channel. Of course if it expands too fast it will lack penitration. Hence the Controled Expansion bullets that are so popular on large game now.
And a one shot stop or having the animal drop on the spot is never a given regardless of what cartridge you use.
Paul
And since the bullet weighs much less it has much less momentum than the rifle did at the shot. And momentum is actually what will move an object in a straight line away from the impact.
Bullets kill by hydrodynamic shock to a viscous medium. This is a result of velocity and bullet expansion. Or a bullet with a large frontal area will do the same thing. This is what causes the wound channel. The larger the wound channel the more effective the round. This is called Stopping Power in most cases. Not knock down power, but they are often confused. It is very possible for a lighter bullet to work better than a heavier one. If that bullet had better expansion and more velocity it could cause a larger wound channel. Of course if it expands too fast it will lack penitration. Hence the Controled Expansion bullets that are so popular on large game now.
And a one shot stop or having the animal drop on the spot is never a given regardless of what cartridge you use.
Paul
09-02-2006, 09:56 PM
#48
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Port Neches, Texas
Posts: 5,514
RE: knockdown power... fact or myth?
Thanks Paul, we seem to agree on this!
What the eyes see at the shot can be very deceptive. For instance, a few years back, I took a hurried shot at a nice buck the was about to step out of sight into a line of woods. At the shot, the buck flipped over forward. I knew for sure my buck was dead, just out of sight inside the woods. When I got there, i saw what caused him to look like he was hit hard! I had barely grazed him, not even drawing blood! The reason he flipped was that when he flexed at the shot, he was standing in some soft mud, he slipped and flipped while reacting to the shot! I had only scared him!
Shot placement is much more of a factor in what may appear to be "knock down" than anything else. Hitting heavy bone, or a high hit causes a loss of balance, rather than pure "knock down"!
Shooting an empty can is a good example of the "knock down" myth! Sometimes the can doesn't even fall over, you might even think that you missed, but you didn't. Fill it with water, and it will probably come apart, but its not actually knocked down!
Finally, if recoil knocked you down, you'd probably never shoot the gun again! If you did, you'd probably flinch so bad that the bullet would end up somewheres in the next county!
What the eyes see at the shot can be very deceptive. For instance, a few years back, I took a hurried shot at a nice buck the was about to step out of sight into a line of woods. At the shot, the buck flipped over forward. I knew for sure my buck was dead, just out of sight inside the woods. When I got there, i saw what caused him to look like he was hit hard! I had barely grazed him, not even drawing blood! The reason he flipped was that when he flexed at the shot, he was standing in some soft mud, he slipped and flipped while reacting to the shot! I had only scared him!
Shot placement is much more of a factor in what may appear to be "knock down" than anything else. Hitting heavy bone, or a high hit causes a loss of balance, rather than pure "knock down"!
Shooting an empty can is a good example of the "knock down" myth! Sometimes the can doesn't even fall over, you might even think that you missed, but you didn't. Fill it with water, and it will probably come apart, but its not actually knocked down!
Finally, if recoil knocked you down, you'd probably never shoot the gun again! If you did, you'd probably flinch so bad that the bullet would end up somewheres in the next county!
09-03-2006, 12:20 AM
#49
Typical Buck
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location:
Posts: 781
RE: knockdown power... fact or myth?
I agree that knockdown has nothing to do with it, but a 30-06 has a better chance of putting one down in it's tracks than a 22 with a standard shoulder shot. I've never seen a rifle flip one either, but I think the bigger the wound channel, the better chance you have of a dropped deer.