RE: 12GA From Hell
 

Another experiment in shotgun/rifle realm is
28GA From Hell. 28ga is .550 bore and with 550Mag
barrels & bullets being made it is a natural. Have one
on bolt gun ready to chamber.Chamber still
will fire shorter cases..Ed

RE: 12GA From Hell
 

28 guage from Hell?


That sounds sorta cool.



It seems that you've just been talking to yourself all this time, eh, Hubel?

Sorta weird how things happen on this site, IMO.

RE: 12GA From Hell
 

Rocky MTN is making me some
3.25 in 28ga cases. They are good to 38k psi.
That will get 550 gr out at 2500 in
bolt action.A regular 28ga gun may get to
2000, depending on how heavy barrel is.
Get a NEF Ultra cut off leaving breech section
for monoblock and have 28ga rifled barrel
made and screwed or soldered in monoblock.
And being able to hold 38k to match brass,
That would get 2500 fps loads.Ed

RE: 12GA From Hell
 

There is a possibility that we can take big
spanish doubles in 10/12 ga and rebarrel to 28ga
now that there are .550 barrels around. Put them into breech section of barrels like monoblock doubles are built.
They'd be heavy enough barrel to shoot powerful 28ga
slug loads in the brass cases. Ed

RE: 12GA From Hell
 

Tested AA2015- VV N130- Norma200- in plastic
cases with small primers. They don't fire
dependably. Sqibs and misfires. Have
VV N110 ordered to test.Have had inquiries
about getting our cases shortened for strength
and they want to put in small primer.
They can be adapted with bushing. Ok but
must use 4759 or fast shotgun powders,
if they are used by themselves. Any slower
powders, a fast shotgun starter powder
is needed. My testing shows RE-15 with 10gr
of Blue Dot starter is best of all we tested
in slower powders for shorter cases.Ed

RE: 12GA From Hell
 

Here is picture of the first falling block
model of aluminum, with a roughed out
stock to see how it looks. Action is a
rough model. It shoulders nice, and
lever is inlet into pistol grip,
so you can't get banged up
fingers with the big cartridges it is designed
for, like levers that stick down at the
guard.Ed

RE: 12GA From Hell
 

This is modern stock layout, Older styles can be used with
more drop at heel and straight grip or scant grip.
Comb is uphill a 1/4" at back from comb front.So
it won't hit the face. The front of comb can also
be whittled back and more curve added to top of
the grip, if a longer tang is wanted for the
tang mounted ladder sights.Ed

RE: 12GA From Hell
 

This action will have recess on the back top
to mount any length/shape tang you want.
Lever can be straightened easy for straight grip. Ed

RE: 12GA From Hell
 

Here is pic of action model with lever open
and the breech block down. Also the action
will have a slot in the top rear for a
top tang of whatever length you need. Even a
long tang for tang sight.Ed

RE: 12GA From Hell
 

Info about the toggle link. It is up inside
the breech block, and quite short,and that
allows the overall height of the action to
be relatively compact, for the huge
cases we plan on using.But yet the top
part of the breechblock is solid for
great strength.Ed

RE: 12GA From Hell
 

I've beenlurking in the 12g FH posts for a few months.I amamazed at the things you are doing. Pure genius. I'm saving my pennies for a replica '87, a heavy rifled barrel and some Rocky Mountain Cases. Itshould be just the thing for Brown Bear in the thick. I have a NEF and have always suspected it had potential, just not 10,000 ft.lbs. worth!In the meantime, do you think itispossible to use SR 4759or RL-15 in 12g 3-inch plastic cases with 900 grain ((.600 NE solid)sabots) and keep pressures in the12-15K range for use in modern pump guns?4000 Ft. Lbs would be nice. Just an idea I can't get out of my head. If not, I'll try to beg some 600g Dixie Slugs from Mr. Gates, or settle for 600 grain .505 sabots and start having some fun.

RE: 12GA From Hell
 

With bullets that heavy you'd have too high of pressures with 4759
for plastic cases. Possibly could do it with RL-15 and starter
powder in plastic, but only in heavy barreled like NEF.
But the 600 gr Dixie is still the best for
most uses in plastic. A NEF and brass cases would handle 900 gr
Saboted bullet with RL-15 and starter powder. Start
at 80 gr Rl-15 and go up if cases don't expand to much to resize.Ed

RE: 12GA From Hell
 

Thanks Ed. I thought so.

RE: 12GA From Hell
 

Here is pic of a double that I will put
barrels in, monoblock style, using the breech
section for the monoblock. This one will be
for 28GA FH. May get another same size for
my 510HE. I will be able to run full pressures
with these.....I am trying to find a bigger,
heavier one to put 12GA FH in. I want
heavier one so as to run pressures like my
Savage as a minimum.Ed.

RE: 12GA From Hell
 

that crazy

RE: 12GA From Hell
 

I was looking at an 8ga single on
GB, that looked heavy enough to put
a barrel in for 12ga or 700HE. They
wanted much more than it cost
new.It was a real heavy
Spanish single. If I found an extra,
or the 8ga Tonolini double, I might
leave it 8ga, as I could make a few
cases by reworking 20mm Suzy brass,
can be done without adding rim,which would
be super strong cases like our 12ga FH.Ed

RE: 12GA From Hell
 

Had question about locking RMC cases onto
lead slugs, as they don't crimp into the
grooves well as sharp bend works thick
mouth. First I resize tight and slightly bell
mouth.Insert slugs which take a little pressure.
Then I use a die with slightly more
taper and swage the mouth into slug, like
the fit you get with bottleneck cases.
Same deal works with our long cases made
from BMG brass.Ed[/align]

RE: 12GA From Hell
 

Preliminary testing with VV N-110 powder shows
it works with small primers like the 4759 powder does,
in plastic cases. Perfect ignition on first
bunch of loads with 600gr slugs.Ed

RE: 12GA From Hell
 

More VV N-110 testing that we got done.
Starting loads are 60 gr min like 4759 for good
ignition,600gr slug. In 2 & 3/4" plastic full load is 75gr
with card and 1/4" cushion wad.In Nef 24" bbl 1700fps.
In 3" plastic 87gr, card and 3/8" wad, 1800 plus.
In RMC brass case. 100gr, card and 1/2 wad 1900 plus.
All running same safe pressures as 4759 lab tested.
So that is two powders that are slower than shotgun
powders, and much safer to work with for regular
primers, giving at least 20% more velocity. Ed

RE: 12GA From Hell
 

Testing soft buckhammer vs hard Dixie. Dixie 600 gr,
Buckhammer from factory hull 640gr with locked on wad,both
out of Savage at 2300. Dixie went through 2 -1/8" steel
sheets and on through two more 3 feet away.Buckhammer
went through first two with same round hole, but made
a bunch of dents and one cockeyed hole 3 ft away.Ed

[/align]

RE: 12GA From Hell
 

Along with the two slower than shotgun powders, IMR 4759
and VV N110 that ignite reliably with shotgun primers,
that are easier to load for slugs, in heavy bbl can
get 20% plus more velocity, I've found another. It is
IMR 7383 $3 a lb surplus. Tested plastic 3" cases, perfect ignition with regular primers. 8 types of cases,600gr slug
starting load 100gr. Full load 140gr giving 1800 fps plus
in 24" bbl NEF.With loads halfway between start and full
didn't even have to resize to shoot again.Full load just has
a card wad under slug in 3" plastic.Wad just tight on
charge, as no extreme compression of powder needed.
Will do heavier slugs and
RMC brass cases. Ed

RE: 12GA From Hell
 

Tested 7383 with 730gr Dixie, 130gr gets 1650 plus fps
in NEF 24" bbl. Used 3" plastic cases. Same low expansion
as 7383 the 600gr loads and the 4759 lab tested loads.
Ignition perfect, no hesitation.Ed

RE: 12GA From Hell
 

Tested 800g slug with 7383 in plastic.Works good.
Have question about different cases and dies.
The RMC cases use a shotgun primer, thus they have
a real thick base. They are not a thin headed,
balloon headed case, and RMC makes sides thick
enough for regular 12ga wads.
But in a break action the 3" plastic cases
with our 4759, VV110, 7383 loads are close to RMC in
power. Can buy a hundred plastic for price of one RMC.
3.5" chamber 12ga with plastic is as good as RMC for 3"
And if I shot RMC in Savage to get more power,
which I could do as far as the firing process,
the expansion above the base, due to being a turned case
would make extraction stiff, causing extractor to
damage rim. A turned rim will not take what[/align]a drawn one will. Rcbs set should do RMC easy.Ed[/align]

RE: 12GA From Hell
 

Finished test of 7383/870 slug in NEF.
Tested 870gr hardened slug with 118gr of
7383, got 1500 plus. Perfect ignition.
Cases ejected easy, and has same base
expansion as the 600 gr slug/140gr 7383.
Will have these pressure/velocity tested
in few weeks.Ed

[/align]

RE: 12GA From Hell
 

Tested a 750 gr banded solid, grooves .009 smaller
than land diameter and got same velocity as
with lead slug weighing the same at same pressure.
Other banded brass slugs with groove debth
same as land raised pressures compared to lead.
Got 2700 easy with 750gr, in long case in Savage.Ed

RE: 12GA From Hell
 

I guess this has become your personal diary, used to be a hot topic, maybe when you get rich and famous, you can publish this.

Is there a lottory I could enter to win one of these things?

RE: 12GA From Hell
 

The folks at 50 Cal suggested we write up a
piece on the 12GA FH. Interested in what we
did to make hairy cartridge using 50 cal brass
adapted to the 12 gauge shotgun platform.
A job for Rob to do? His wild idea has been
viewed about 400,000 times in the forums
we put it in.Ed

RE: 12GA From Hell
 

Anyone got any long 12ga rifled 30" plus
barrels, 1.3" plus diameter. Barrel
guy is shutting down and returning funds.
Been waiting for 12ga heavy barrel for
87 levergun since last summer.Boy it is
hard getting projects done.Ed

[/align]

RE: 12GA From Hell
 

MUHAAAAAA

RE: 12GA From Hell
 

So what are your selection criteria for a shotgun platform ? I've been toying with the 460 S&W paired with a .410 for some time but have not located any sources for a suitability guide . I've seen 1 book offered but its a 60 dollar book andwould take weeks to sift through . I would like to do an O/U .

RE: 12GA From Hell
 

How old this thread is, you would think that post was made in 1980.:D

RE: 12GA From Hell
 

Here is a simple outline of what we've done with
our project we call the 12GA From Hell.
Some folks have asked us to do this.
A. The idea for this and the name was by
Robgunbuilder on the AR forum. We figured out how
to make a long brass case, from BMG brass by
machining rims and the case to screw them on.
We ended up with case after mouth was expanded
that was 3.85" long, with a big BMG primer.
B. Rob put his in a big Borchardt falling block,
a gun that can take full BMG type pressures.
It had firing mechanision that fired primers ok.
Example top load is a 1000gr turned brass slug at
3100 plus fps, and a 7/8oz 12ga sabot at
4300 fps.
C. First of mine in a Savage 210 bolt shotgun with a
heavy rifled 31" barrel. My loads in this were kept
below 35,000 psi. Giving loads of 2700 fps with
a 730 gr hard lead slug, and 3900 with 3/4oz sabot.
Second gun was a NEF Ultra that I lengthened chamber
to take long case. Top loads are 600gr hard slug
at 2500 plus fps.Both Savage and NEF had to have
firing mechanisions beefed up to fire BMG primers.
D. We cut cases back to use in 3" chambers but
all guns have to have beefed up hammers, etc,
to fire the big BMG primers.The BMG primers
fired the slow rifle powders ROB and I
were using very well, no misfires.
So tried 3" RMC brass cases, regular plastic cases,
our cut back cases with primer bushings, all with
smaller regular rifle or shotgun primers,
that regular hammers or firing pins fire ok,
and found out that our slow rifle powder loads
wouldn't fire reliably with small primers.
E. Which lead to much more research. We found that
slow powders could be fired with a 10 gr of a
fast shotgun starter powder, under the slow powder,
using small primers. We also searched for rifle
or pistol powders slower than shotgun powders,
that would fire with small primers and no starter,
that didn't up peak pressure to fast as
we increased loads to increase velocity.
We found three- IMR 4759, VV-N110, and 7383 surplus.
These powders are easier to load for slugs without
the problems of fast shotgun powders pushing up
the peak pressures to quick, as you try to increase
loads to up the velocity. We use a minimum
thickness overpowder wad or other wads in the loads
under the slugs as needed. We had lab test 4759
loads with 600gr slug and pressures were little less
than the magnum REM Buckhammer factory loads, but
we got 400 fps more velocity. The Buckhammer
slug and locked on wad is about 600 gr.Both our tested
loads and Rem loads are 3" plastic.Our loads are for heavy
barreled guns only. IE; all slow powder loads whether
with starter powder or 4759,N110, 7383, heavy barrels,
as the pressure curve is higher down the barrel
and might split regular skinny shotgun barrels.
F. We plan on heavy barrels for testing 1887 Win
leverguns, for Mossberg 695 bolt guns, for
various heavy double shotguns, for various
O/U, for modern alloy guns, etc.We are helping to
design a big falling block for 12ga diameter cases
that is reasonably priced.. We plan on testing
other powders, for use with small primers. We
plan on setting up pressure testing barrel for
the long 3,85" case, to test the whole range
of slow powders and bullet weights, in the future.
We have found heatreated Dixie slugs that can
take super velocities, we found brass slugs with
relieved grooves that run same pressures as lead,
or copper jacketed, at same velocities.
This research and work is super great fun,
we are glad to share.We will get pictures soon of
the muzzle blast with long case, and pics
of penetration tests. Ed

RE: 12GA From Hell
 

Found another powder that works with small
primers in plastic and RMC cases. 600gr slug.
It is IMR 4227. Ignition perfect, same load
levels and velocities as 4759. My earlier
report of 4227 not working was in error
due to what looks like 4198 in a jug
hand labeled 4227 I got in big batch years ago.
Greg told me 4227 worked for him so I got new
jug, and saw the difference from jug I had.

So slower than shotgun, powders that ignite
properly; we have 4759, VV-110, 4227, 7383 surplus,
the latter a slow powder. Ed[/align]

RE: 12GA From Hell
 

Pressure tested 7383 with heavy powder load.
870 gr with 128 gr of 7383-- All that could
be put in REM plastic and keep length to what
would feed from magazine of a 3" gun,
after it was roll crimped with tool in drillpress.
1513 fps-- 14700 psi. That is a slug 50%
heavier than factory Buckhammer at little
faster speed and at little less pressure.
Ignition perfect, cases fall out.
Love that $3 a lb powder.Ed[/align]

RE: 12GA From Hell
 

Finally able to make the
longer barrel improvement on
the 1887 12ga levergun.......
Rifled and heavy and 31"
long. After many months finally got
a barrel.Ed

RE: 12GA From Hell
 

With NEF. Plastic cases, roll crimped slug
in drillpress. 82gr IMR 4227 1650 fps,
with 730gr, 78 gr 4227 with 800gr, 1600.
Expansion on cases show little more pressure
as full loads of 4759 and 600gr.
Ignition perfect with small primers.
Ejects cases fine. Burns clean.
Got a GEHA bolt 12ga to put a heavier
rifled barrel on to test. Ed[/align]

RE: 12GA From Hell
 

Tested 870 gr in NEF with our long
brass case with big primer.I have NEF
with extra hammer spring for big primer.
Got 2000 fps and still able to extract case.
Would do little more, extractor needs
to be wider and set up positive.
Used 260gr of WC-860 and MagPro.
Could use RL-22, Rl-25, Retumbo, etc.
That's 7700 ft lbs.. I get 600 gr slug to
2300 plus in NEF, long case. so you can go
light or heavy.Ed

RE: 12GA From Hell
 

can you guys make a semi auto?

RE: 12GA From Hell
 

We have to make one on a Barrett 50cal
Autoloading Action, but more money than
I got. And if Idid a 12ga size caliber in
autoloaderI'd use my 700HE
belted case, which has as much or more
power and stronger rim to feed and
eject better.Ed.

RE: 12GA From Hell
 

More testing with 4227. Greg got little over 1500 fps in
3" plastic with 870 gr slug using 74-75 gr of 4227.
I did the same. This compares to much lighter
REM Buckhammer slug with more speed. Almost all
the way through 5 ft bundle hardwood boards.
I have Mossy 695 as well as GEHA 12 gauge
to put heavy rifled barrels on. And my 87.
Will be checking Mossy 395
for a guy who wants to put on
a heavy barrel. Ed[/align]