The sabots aren't moving fast at all and I got to
money back out of them right way, and seeing as how
we're low on slugs to send with the sabots, in big numbers,
and no one has yet to buy out our stash of sabots and
set up so they can be selling the sabots, so we will try
selling them fast a few weeks longer. So to get these
moving out and getting tested and we pay our bills,we will
be having sale on just the sabots, in larger amounts only.
We will send one each of 440gr and 500gr slug so
the guys can see what we have found that works.

Because of the shipping costs and boxes that 2, 3, or 4 bags
of sabots fit in, that has an affordable postage cost to pay,
we have to sell these in 200, 300, and 400 size orders..
So, 200 sabots $47 Shipping included,
300 sabots $65 Shipping included...400 for $83 shipping incl.

Now 200 of the other brand X of undersize ones cost $68
plus shipping. There was dozens of guys the last few
years all over the internet that bought undersize junk,
that wanted good sabots and complained that the ones
they bought elsewhere didn't work...... I haven't heard
from most of them, So guys see if you got time, please
help us out here..MO, Check, Paypal..Ed

The sabots work in brass cases .First is sabot in a Magtech brass case,
next to 3" plastic.. In shorter brass it would hold about as much powder
as in longer plastic if loaded like in the picture..
Sabots are about .734-735" with slugs in them, and
the Magtech brass with its thin sides still is slightly small OD at the
top compared to plastic, with sabot wedged in.



Next is sabot in RMC case, and sides are full thickness like plastic cases
at the mouth, so don't expand case to hold sabot. We have RMC make case
mouth ID to fit sabot. Sabot being little over fits barrels tight and rifling
impresses into plastic well and gets best spin, and being tight it leaves barrel
straight, with petals opening evenly. Brass case mouths are tight enough that
we push sabot in with a press.Saves trying to crimp heavy RMC case.



Here is picture of a barrel and barrel on a gun from 20 gauge singlshots that
will have the heavy 20ga rifled barrel in picture, mono-blocked into them.

What causes sabot problems/inaccuracy. Some pictures will help.
First 2 shows a skinny post that pushes on a cushion or sabot
bottom and it can bend or deflect which if that way when exiting
barrel can start sabot or slug crooked.





And more important item that can cause lack of accuracy is if
base of discarding sabot tapers or steps down so that it isn't real
tight as it leaves bore, which can allow it to be cocked.
On the left is our sabot which has base right and other brand
which tapers a bit. Easy to see.



Next is a ball and slug load in 2 of our sabots. A 285gr .575" ball
flattened, put in the bottom and 400gr Minie above, two different
styles of Minies.



Here is couple 16ga discarding sabots I made from the undersize
12ga grey ones. Didn't have to take off much. Much better use
for them. I made them, after Paul in Alaska asked about
where to find 16ga ones, to see what they looked like.
They still use 50cal slug.. Ed

Here is 16ga discarding sabots made from grey ones with other 16ga slugs..
20 ga factory sabot on left for comparison.



Here is picture of 12ga wads showing good and bad support.



Here are 2 sabots on the right with super heavy tungsten slug. It is 1100gr,
but tungsten costs ten times what lead costs.



Here is a sabot home defense or close range defense load setup using our
sabot. It has five flattened 45cal balls in it. Flattened into a fat disc weighing
145gr each. You'd star crimp it or use card over them and roll crimp. Like
having a bunch of supersize flat buckshot, only super big.



Here is comparison picture of the 58cal slugs used in our 12ga sabots, with the
puny slugs used in many other sabots. And we've moved 5500 of the sabots.
Deer season is coming fast. Maybe time to get loads tested/sighted in is now.



Some more figures. The 24hr Campfire forums is first one, with our 12ga FH thread,
to get over half million thread views.The HighRoad second.
TheFiringLine third. AR fourth...Ed

We have moved few thousand sabots.More here.
Here is picture of an 8ga wad with tube slug in it, we made.



A pallet load of our 585HE cases has arrived in the US
and will be here in little while. And should be another pallet
of them this fall. Here is picture of our 585
with the solid turned CEB bullets in them.



Here is some helpful, simple math to help figure out the kinetic energy
of your loads, just by having bullet weight and speed.
Just put these multipliers which are used for each speed, on a list
and multiply by the bullet weight in grains. Fast and easy.Ed

Speed..Multiplier
1500------5
1600------5.7
1700------6.42
1800------7.2
1900------8
2000------9
2100------9.8
2200------10.75
2300------11.75
2400------12.8
2500------13.9
2600------15
2700------16.2
2800------17.4
2900------18.7
3000------20

Here is picture of current 58cal slug options that
you can get molds for from Lyman,
Just make sure they are .574" to .577" diameter,
the best size for the 12ga sabots.




A barrel of 585HE cases..Ed



Made by Bertram and I tested them to max loads and cases hardly expanded,
650gr over 3000 fps. The same draws used by him to make high pressure
Cheytac cases, and to finish mine just uses belted header and cases left
straight and trimmed longer.He makes tens of thousands Cheytac steady all
the time now and can make ours steady also when needed.....Ed

One of our sabot testers with tight barrel, Abolt, with wide lands in
the barrel, who couldn't do any good at all with our sabot and Alliant Steel
and one type of slug, had to go to IMR 4759.
It would twist up the sabot petals. Terrible accuracy.

My guns have NEF/Sav size barrels and worked fine with Steel as well as 4759.
Petals open perfect. The Abolt barrel is about .005" smaller than NEF/Sav and
the lands over twice as wide as the NEF. And has real narrow grooves.
Guys with Nefs say sabots open fine like ours here.

He went to different Minie slug and our slow powder loads using
IMR 4759 powder up to 78-79 gr and finally got down to 2.5" group, I told him
go to max which is about 80-82 in 3" case.That barrel is like a lot of
EU made barrels and many are replacement or add on barrels in many slug guns,
and that is reason why it is so hard to get accuracy across the board in
sabot shooting in all guns--Takes a lot of work.. Another tester with NEF 12ga using
Alliant Steel with sabots got good groups like we did here. I tell guys if
problems occur go to 4759.

What was happening to sabot petals in the barrel, with the extra tight fit and
wide lands were petals twisting.. The wide lands were not cutting into the base of
sabot like in NEF/Sav210 barrels. The twist effect of rifling was on the surface
of petals, twisting them. It was not getting good hold on the sabot body. The
4759 starting slower allowed the sabot to get its spin started up to speed
with the wide land rifling and narrow grooves..It is just the opposite of
way NEF/Sav 12ga barrels are done. with narrow lands which impress into
the sabot base the way it is supposed to work..I showed pics above of the
good rifling marks impressed into our sabots.

I think after this experimenting run I feel that a lot of accuracy problems
across the spectrum of barrels are due to barrel differences, and not just
the differences in factory slugs and/or reloading components.

Here is pic of bag of our 585 cases with plain head if some need them for
wildcatting.We have quite a few. Fifteen have 585HE cases now. 585 gun
building is accelerating. We can get folks going with 100 cases, dies, and soon
a barrel; and shipping, for 750...Ed

Here is picture of our 12ga sabots with the marks that the barrel lands made, marked with
black marker. The one with narrow mark is Savage barrel and one with wide mark is
an Abolt barrel. And the ones fired in Savage and NEFs with the narrow lands the marks
impressed into the plastic getting good bite and not twisting the petals. The one from abolt
he used slower powder for easier start and it open petals ok, without twisting petals like
the faster powder did for him.


..
Next is picture showing top edge of sabots. Our sabot on left you roll crimp down over
the inside of it a little . We have lots of them yet.
The other factory sabot they crimp real short and sharp
180 degree crimp down on top of it.



We see a use for modified 585 application in Indiana deer hunting. Mainly shotgun only, but
they also allow rifles with over 35cal pistol calibers; and any over 35cal rifle with a case
1.8" or shorter, usually short wildcats. So we have the the 585 HI... The I is for Indiana.
Here is picture of it next to the kinda little 500 S&W. 585 HI holds over 80 gr powder.

Next picture is a Magtech chambered for it. Gets 440gr Minie over 2,100 fps.
The .585"- .587" Minies of 440gr, 540gr, etc work in it, and they're good deer slugs
We got other guns with it going into; bolt guns, like in the last picture,
single shots and checking couple lever actions.
Might work great in MNs many guys like....Ed

In above post we compare the top thickness of sabots
.Here is comparison of the thickness of the sides of two types of
brass 12ga cases, the RMC turned case and the thinner
Magtech drawn case. Easy to see you can't size with same dies
and sometimes you have to use different wads..



In posts earler in the thread you saw variety of wad columns with
12ga sabots and here is picture of my favorite wads to go between
seal and sabot. The white felt ones from BPI. They compress down
evenly on firing, easy to load, decent price,



You've seen the work on our 585HE posted. Folks ask what case
I made first ones from and how. Here is a sketch showing the steps
I used to make the first 585HE from long basic straight Nyati brass.
The start of the belt step I put on the case where it is thick I do it
in my case spinner lathe I made. Then case is lubed and run into
couple swaging/sizing dies and comes out formed into our belted,
straight sided, 585HE case...... It is really faster getting a big
run of cases made in a factory.




Shot a 12ga sabot load w/440 gr Minie bullet in smoothbore Rossi
in 3" case, Going about 1700... .. 4" group 3 shots at 30 yds.
Gun works fine, shoots nice. Got extra weight in the butt.
The Minie I used is a semi-round nose. If I had the ones of same length
with blunt nose, slightly heavier the group size would be smaller as
they'd be more nose heavy, be like Foster slugs..Ed

Here is picture of the group improvement a guy had shooting our
sabots in a real tight barrel. Actually an undersize barrel compared
to Savage and Nef barrels. Had a wide open group with shotgun
powder but made it much smaller using much more
of the slower 4759.



There is a guy now in Canada with our sabots for guys there and
other countries, and as well, he can ship back to here. He plans
on supplying the .58cal slugs also for the sabots if guys can't get
them or don't cast their own.......
Contact is- jeff.a.white at gmail.com
If things work out for him he plans on getting a bunch
our 585 cases imported for sales there

I got some factory 8ga kiln loads, 3 oz lead at 1800 in the long
barrel falling block. Got box of 25 to see how they compared to
the loads we set up.Our favorite is 900gr at 2300. in plastic case.



Here is picture of section 585HE case showing 4 pyrodex 54cal,
60gr equivalent pellets, with a 440 gr Minie bullet.
Actual powder wt is about 185gr....Goes about 2600.
Nice cloud of smoke and really bellers out of the slow twist barrel
barrel we set up for minies.....Top pellet tapered a little and fit
inside the hollowbase of the bullet....Ed

Another use for 58cal Minie Bullets would be to setup a 24ga FH.
Minie bullets cheap to cast and buy. We use the .575-.577" in our
12ga sabot, and the .585-.587 in my 585HE. And you could use
577 NE bullets also.

For those in shotgun only areas there is a way. You can get 2.5"
Magtech brass cases, but also you can set up a 3" chamber and use
577NE 3" brass. Grafs shows some under 4 bucks each. Cheaper
than getting them made. And if you set up chamber with shotgun style
forcing cone you could shoot shorter Magtech as well as plastic cases.
Reason to use 577 cases, they are stronger solid head, last forever,
and can be run higher pressures and still last forever.
You can get barrels, 58cal at Green Mtn I think. .We got some also.

AND the first batch 585 barrels from McGowen has got here, more
will be built.They are the regular 1 to 20 twist barrels, and we have 14
that are profiled and polished, and 3 others that are straight blanks,
1 to 20 twist. And 6 slow twist barrel blanks for guys doing mainly
Minie bullet guns, and bunch smoothbore blanks...Pictures soon.

Here are couple pictures of a 585HE gun a guy is doing with nice
walnut stock. Gun has extra bedding lug and accra-glassed.
It is an Enfield and has single stack magazine.

Here is picture of 24ga FH in the Mossberg bolt gun. On a
Mossy 390 frame, .585" heavy barrel, same as 24ga size.
Chamber is set up 3" with shotgun style forcing cone,
so it can use 2.5" plastic cases and 2.5" Magtech brass
cases with slugs or shot and for 3" cases we use 577NE
3" brass. Really make a hairy 24ga using the 440gr to
540 gr Minie bullets at 21-2400. If you take 540 Minie bullet
mould and leave out base pin you'd have a 650gr that
would do. All these bullets and slugs as well as jacketed and
turned 577/585 bullets work in 24ga as well as my 585HE.
And the smaller Minies work in our 12ga sabots. I keep
saying 58cal is where it is at, and there are more bullet and
slug choices in the .585 size, easy to find, than any other
caliber over 458. And Minies are like 40 cents each and
cheaper if you cast your own.




Here is picture .585" barrels from McGowen, with other barrels.
Most of the McGowens profiled and some straight blanks.
Others we have are the slow twist and smooth blanks...
In back some of the cases and die sets.



Here is picture of an Enfield and a BBK in Hogue recoil
reducing stocks. These stocks are the rubber coated ones with
the easy to grip, nice pistol grip.Has McGowen 26 inch barrels,
1 to 20 twist, barrels are heavy profile and taper
to .980 inch at the muzzle. Guys are doing more on Enfields
and others through the winter. Ed

Some guys in 12ga like to use the Magtech brass cases
but the cases being brass the sides are thinner than
plastic, and that makes loose fit in 12ga chambers.
And case expand a lot and are harder to resize,
But I found that .750 hollowbase 10ga slug fits
those cases and still chambers ok. Not a sloppy fit.

So If you have a 12ga smooth barrel with full length
backbore job, of .850" bore or bigger you could use
the Magtech brass and ,850" size 10ga hollowbase slugs.
Now these .850" slugs won't go in a 12ga plastic case
and chamber in regular 12ga chamber.

Brett in MN used the a BPI AQ slugs in his full length
backbored 12ga and got fair accuracy as he said the wads
under slugs expanded a lot for a decent fit.
The 10ga slug shown in the 2.5 inch Magtech is 800 gr,
and .850" diameter. These cases will take magnum
pressure so you can get good speed, for what this short
case can hold.

It is too bad they don't make 3" and 3.5" versions.
These 2.5" cases are easier to find and much less than
others, so if needing brass ones you can rig up guns
to work with them. To build a new barreled gun in actual
12ga size, IE .729" bore, you'd make chamber to
minimum specs so cases don't over expand.
In the picture are 2 10ga slugs on right, like in the case,
and 2 12ga jacketed slugs and one 12ga lead slug left.ED






Here is the ytube URL again for our guy
shooting 585HE in his NEF----By mid summer we plan on a
pickup truck load of more 585HE cases coming in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HypaUdwQGAc

Here is good simple system with big hollowbase slugs to stop
the skirts from deforming, I found that dense dow foam works
good, I was using glue gun but dow foam is easier, Just cut
plugs out of foam sheet and force into the base. Make a tight
fit, use spot of glue inside, glue that is for foam....
Trim off the foam flush..In picture is 10 ga 900gr slug.



How we get good 24ga plastic seals with protusion on
top that fits up inside 58cal Minie base, same bore as 24ga
and our 585HE. I get the 24ga seal by cutting apart the BPI
24ga Brush wad, getting two seals out of each.Works great
in plastic case giving a shorter column than other seals and
wads, so we can get in enough of our 4759 for good speed.
The 24ga idea is getting nicer all the time with
the variety of cheap 58cal slugs, and good 3" brass cases,
drawn cases, we didn't have to wait to get made.
And all kind of guns we can use, bolt 395 Mossbergs, single
shots of all kinds, Autos,, pumps. bolt action Savage,
even 1887 Win and Greener MKIII, bolt action JC Higgins. .



Here is picture Khan auto we setting up 24ga FH, it is 3.5"
model, has a 12ga barrel to change with. Being 3.5" it
feeds/ejects through lengthened port 3" brass 24ga cases we
made from 577NE brass. We rework back of the bolt for
slightly longer stroke.Ed

Here is picture of 24ga cases, loads; and some slugs and seals.
Brass cases are 3", plastic cases are 2.5". Brass 3" can be loaded
to match 577NE power.



Here is of 24ga in an 87 Win, just test gun of mine. Uses same barrels
as our 585HE, This one has slow twist for Minie bullets.Our guys
have got supply of regular and slow twist barrels.



Here is picture of the first 585HE done and shooting in Australia.
It is owned by the poster, 'tankhunter' on the AR forums.
Built by his smith who has a reamer.
Guys there can get cases from Bertram, and there will soon be three
reamers there. There is a company there now making 585 barrels,
Allan and Grant Swan. in Redbank, Queensland.....Ed

Finally got back to forums.Been busy with 24ga FH and 585HE
and getting 585 cases made, as many as possible...

We are now working a bit with 24ga FH and here is picture
of it with our 585HE case. Both use same bullets/slugs, same
bore barrels. Main use difference, 24ga FH easy setup in break
actions and 585HE in bolt actions and falling blocks.



Picture of non-discarding 585/24ga sabot cup I found that holds
458 bullets and slugs tight. It had hammerhead type slug in it that
was pulled out and they wouldn't stay in tight. Sabot was a loose fit
in 20ga, made for 20ga, but small, so I shrunk the bottom rib,
fits perfect, super tight, in 24ga and 585HE. Fits real tight to give
good resistance for good ignition.



Here is another 24ga/585 sabot that holds .452" 45cal pistol
bullets. Made by Hornady for 58cal ML. With 250 gr bullet in 585
will go about mach 4.



Here is easy way to weight plastic stocks with hollow butts, use rubber
coated computer mouse balls, weight comes out perfect without being
too heavy if using that much lead.And coating keeps them quiet, and
we hold them in with piece dense foam under butt pad....Ed

First AUS buffalo killed by 585HE. By Tankhunter with his Ruger #1.

If you use closeup on picture, you see loaded round on the buffs hide

next to the 585HE Ruger #1.... A nice heavy barreled gun..Ed




I put the 585 in a Savage 112, lots of room lengthwise, figuring out an
extractor is a problem, but then got a look at the savage 212, the 12 ga
one with big diameter bolt and locking lugs. Its locking lugs are bigger
than the lugs in a big PH bolt action. So one day will do one
on a Savage 212, and adjusting extractor to fit no problem...Ed

Here is picture of 100 cases loaded with CEB solid nose bullets
and hollowpoints. This bullet is a turned solid with wide meplat
or wide hollowpoint. .



Here is picture of triball loads that fellows like for deer and hogs,
and just general tear em up fun, with using BPGS seal to improve
sealing under what are heavier loads. The balls are .600" and
315gr. each. The wadcup is a TUPRW123 that Precision sells.




Our 585 caliber is modern bolt action continuance of the 577 Nitro
Express rimmed case, that many big game hunters like, usually
set up in double rifles. It has an interesting history, from the old 24ga
size to 577NE, to 585 Nyati with G&A picture of Ross Seyfreid
shooting one in a Ruger #1 under recoil knocking his shooting glasses
off, to the Trex of internet fame knocking guys over with recoil,
to our 585HE the strongest yet.

The 577NE is an offshoot of 24 gauge caliber paper cases, only they went
eventially to brass cases. Back in the 1860-70s, starting first with short
cases and black powder, cases built like shotgun cases, called the
577 Snider, then going to coiled brass cases, still with black powder,
then on to drawn brass cases, called 577 BP Express. then to 3"
and other longer cases with smokeless. The Snider started out with a bullet
of .570" diameter and through the progression to the 577NE bullet
diameter ended up at .585". This general bore diameter of cartridge guns
and muzzle loaders, it is really interesting on how they developed
and were used by military and then hunters over the years. The Snider
was necked down to make the 577-450 , a military round used all
over the British Empire, by the tens of millions.

Bases of both 24ga and 577NE are about the same. Now we have made a
24ga FH, a slight regression to earlier times, by taking 577NE brass, and
reducing rim diameter to 24ga specs. Two minute job. And
stamp the caseheads 24 ga.

For shotgun upgrading in power and range, It is all about increasing
the power in easy to find brass cases, stronger actions, and finding
reasonable price rifled barrels. Same barrels we found for 585, work for 24ga.
The 577NE brass we make 24ga drawn cases from, for example are
about a third the cost of 600NE brass, or getting turned 24ga cases made.
We could use 24ga thin cases but they are a pain, expand way too much,
with slug loads which makes resizing without crumpling cases a problem.

Info about the power in types of guns normally set up with 24ga FH,
break actions, bolt shotguns,etc. In thin brass 24ga case, 440gr slug
goes 1500, with about 2000 ft lbs, that's in a 2.5" Magtech brass case.
Now using the better, heavier 3" brass we got, we can increase speed
to 1750 fps increasing energy 50%, going to 2000 fps about doubles
energy. And going to 2300 which good brass holds ok, in heavy barrel
gun, gets us near 2 1/2 times the energy. About 37-40,000 psi which the
actions hold in this smaller diameter case, compared to 12 gauge size.
So makes relatively smaller bore shotgun, 24ga, with 458WIN power.
.Perfect with Minie bullets. Perfect for deer and hogs, bear, etc.

Great for slug hunting in shotgun only areas. We mark barrels 24ga
and cases 24. A decent case that is complimentary to our 585HE....Ed

Guys asking about using 585 CEB bullet in our 12ga super
sabot. Here is picture, We just took off the bottom band and couple
middle bands on the CEB and it fit perfect in our 12ga sabot,
which uses .575" slugs. Hollowpoint one pictured 700gr in the
sabot loaded in brass case. Can be used in plastic case with a
special made hollowed out long roll crimper.



Getting some more interest in our 585HE.
An application for our 585 HE is for guys with old military 14.5mm
PTRDs, to use our case with chamber insert. In many places 14.5
cases are scarce, real expensive, as well as most 14.5mm cases
being steel are not the easiest to resize/reload. Our case sizes
like regular cases and can be easily reloaded many times.

And a PTRD with almost a 5 foot long barrel could get 650gr
spitzer bullet to about same speed the 14.5mm gets a 900 gr using
3 times as much powder. About 3300 fps. Or get a 900gr at 2800.
Great possibilities for fun shooting. For tactical use in a place
where it would be useful to reload in the operations field, where
steel cases are scarce. 100 of our cases do over 2000 reloads.



I like Enfields to put our 585HEs in, for reasonable cost guns, the
actions once sporterized are one of the longest for long cases. .
Here is inexpensive way to fancy up the Enfield Bolt handle by
cutting the dogleg part of the old handle off and welding on
inexpensive contoured handles I found, one of which is like
Ruger 77 handle, the one on the right . Something even a novice
like me can do.....



A lot of guys are crazy about CEB bullets. Here are light 450gr
ones in our 24ga FH. That hollowpoint can range in weight 450gr
to 700gr depending on how much we cut off the back..
The 24ga FH brass case is nice complement to our 585HE,
for shotgun only deer hunters that want a .585" caliber,
and easy to find big bore bullets.... Ed

For lightweight plinking, deer hunting, etc, in 585HE as well as 24ga FH
here is picture of 58cal Hornady sabot that holds .451/.452" light
bullets 225 to 300 gr. A way to shoot targets economically. Low recoil
but a big bang and satisfaction. A 250 gr bullet would go about
mach 4 with a top load..



Here is what 585 bull barrel, target blank looks like, 1 5/8" OD and 32" long.
It'll go in heavy action of some kind. 4th one from the left. The one in yellow
sleave on top, is a heavy contoured one with muzzle of .980". we got a
bunch of them and so does McGowen.




Here is picture, nice cast bullet I like for the 585HE and 24ga FH.
It is .585" diameter and 650 gr and these particular ones are a
hard lead alloy, plus they've been heatreated. They are about as
hard as copper jacketed softs pivtured. These in .575'' size would
work in our 12ga sabot..



But to penetrate good and do great damage to game or target they
can be fairly soft lead and hollowbase like Minie Bullets. Here is picture
of timber drilled through with .585 soft lead Minie from 585HE.
Picture is the back of 6x6 timbers where Minie bullets came out.



Guys experimenting with multiple ball loads in 12ga wadcups, here is a
way to keep them together group wise.Ed

Here is picture of our NEF 12ga FH with Hogue Compstock. It has the
recoiling cam and springs in the hollow butt plus some weght,



Here is a variety of slugs and bullets that fit in the 12ga dangerous
game slug, lock on sabot. BPI sells that DG slug.

.

There is couple 585 videos on Swann Gunsmithing's Facebook site;
Of our 585HE in first Ruger #1, that was done in Australia.It was set up
for the poster Tankhunter on the AR big bore forums. That gun killed the
first AUS buff, killed by a 585HE, that I posted picture of above. You can
go direct to the page and click on the videos to watch the test firings..

https://www.facebook.com/swanbarrels/videos


Here is picture our 585HE in a Montana PH action in a MPI stock, with the
style of a CZ stock and metal will be finished with a Gun Kote finish.





Here is picture of a 585HE we did in a Mauser 98 as a
singleshot test gun. We used a composite stock we
adapted to fit action. Weighted to 12 lbs.
Enfield in back, you can see it is longer.



And speaking of singleshots a fellow in the Yukon is
just finishing up one in a Ruger #1.And the 24hr Campfire
forum has over a million views of this thread, ..ED

While I could see the point for these things in an Elephant, Rhino, or Cape Buffalo hunt, I can see absolutely no reason at all going after a Whitetail Deer that weighs not much more than the damn cartridge for these cannons. I mean seriously hubel, who in their right mind would carry one of these things into the field for whitetail? You keep saying "shotgun only" states but I would have to doubt very seriously the legality of one of these things in IL if one got caught. Not to mention, who in the hell would want to lug a 20-30 pound firearm hunting? I would tend to think if Johnny Law snatched you up and they said "this aint legal boy" they aren't going to listen to someone saying "But your Honor, Huble458 on the internet thing said it was"!

The one legal for shotgun we mostlytalk about is 24ga that weighs ten lbs.

Gun is marked 24ga, fires 24 ga cases, plastic or brass, cases
marked 24 ga. The more p[owerful 585 HE case I don't promote
for shotgun areas. I never have for shotgun areas.

And guys in TX and FL shot couple deer with lighter 585HE in NEF
break actions with lighter Minie bullets, loaded down,
going slower, about like power of 58cal ML loaded heavy with Minie bullet.
Fun way to hunt, Big bores way much more fun than peashooters.

Example;
We use the 12ga NEF Ultra above for deer hunting, lengthen chamber
in its heavy barrel to use 3.5" cases and get double the energy, with brass
cases, all legal for shotgun only and still manageable to shoot.
Weighs about 11 lbs. Still get 50% more energy with 3.5" plastic cases.

But if a guy takes that NEF and adds 10-15lbs, or puts on a tripod, or
a Aimpoint sight, or paints it purple, or puts on muzzle brake, adds a
$2000 scope, or hangs flashlight under the barrel, etc;
It is still a legal shotgun for shotgun only deer hunting everywhere,
no matter how game wardens, naysayers, smallgun folks feel.. ED

And therein lies the question Ed, at what point does a "slug gun" in all intents and purposes become a rifle? Granted a BIG bore rifle but still a rifle. You are surpassing all the factory made slugs energy levels by 50 percent or more, you are surpassing the factory slugs speeds by a minimum of 35% and in general you are skirting the legality issues by stamping 24ga on some of these but in all reality you are simply making Big Bore rifles. Plain and simple.

Far be it from me to deny ANYONE to shoot whatever they want to shoot. I have a few big bore rifles up to and including a Krieghoff 500NE Double that will break the shoulder of anyone not ready for some serious bite. Got lucky at an auction a few years back and won it for $1500 and could easily sell it for well over $10,000 but I like the dang mule kicking sob. Absolutely beautiful rifle and works perfectly for Bison! Not a whole hell of a lot of difference between what you are shooting and a 500NE round. You think Johnny law would let it go by if I had my barrel stamped 24ga? I don't think so bud. And if they were to inspect one of those things you are promoting up here I would find it hard to believe they would let it pass here in IL either.

Well of course they wouldn't let a 500NE go by if stamped 24ga,

as a 24ga case wouldn't fit the chamber, and the barrel bore is not 24ga size.

But our 24ga has a 24ga chamber and bore, and fits 24ga cases you can reload

and loaded factory 24ga rounds. BPI and Precision Reloading sell 24ga plastic and

brass cases the go in the chamber. We just made a stronger brass case that

can be loaded heavier. Rocky Mtn Cart makes brass cases that can be

loaded heavier in 24ga and all shotgun calbers. Either are legal cases.

Your 500NE loaded at factory about 2000 fps, but modern non balloon head cases

they can be loaded a third faster if you want. No difference in concept.

Factory hotrod sabot loads for 12 and 20 ga have over 50% more energy than

old foster slug loads, legal for both them and us to do it...

Plastic shotgun cases take a certain pressure, magtech brass takes 50% more,

our cases and Rocky Mtn cases take twice the pressure as plastic.

You can find some aluminum shotgun cases that take 50-70% more than plastic.

All legal. BPI and others sell sabots, slugs and stuff that gets reloaded to twice

the energy of factory loads, all legal........

The 12ga FH isn't the first wildcat case built on BMG brass, it was preceded by
target rounds like the necked down 338 Talbot, the cut off 700 DKT for big game,
necked down to .416 and . 458, and more, but the following one was way
before them, in my favorite rifle caliber, for .585" bullets.

One of first modern era 585 caliber wildcats, since WW2, the 575 Miller-Greiss Magnum,
was first mentioned in the fifties, It was made from BMG brass shortened to 2.70" long
and necked up from 50 cal to .585". But actually if cut off first, it would be annealed, necked
down to hold 585 bullet. Fairly sharp shoulder.

They rebated the rim quite a ways down to .618" to maybe fit 98 Mauser bolt.
Maybe used a special hogged out, reworked action. Listed as
shooting 750gr bullet about 2400 fps. It holds about 150gr of ball powder under
a 750 gr bullet, maybe little less than 3" 50cal spotter case, where our 585HE holds
180gr under a 750gr'.

We made one for experimenting on a full length BMG case.With rim left same as the base
and would need a BMG or PH sized bolt and action. I'm glad to be a big bore wildcatter,
and happy to be in the company of big bore nuts, old and new. Years ago when guys did
big wildcats on BMGs, they took what was available, full length BMGs to rework, and but
maybe back then they could have used the 3" BMG spotter case, by shortening the neck,
if they could have found couple barrels full.

But it takes a lot of work to reform and shorten cases that much like M&G, with the multiple dies,
multiple annealings, and case trimming and extreme reworking of regular rifle actions,
which is why I like our 585 case, simple and straight, any regular, long bolt action, or
falling blocks, break actions, etc, a 585 good for dozen or more heavy loadings,
and moderate loads, last forever..

For our 585HE , made it a size, actually new belted size, to fit regular size, long bolt guns,
(not BMG actions)that didn't have to be used from tripod so to speak, and could be put in a favorite
gun of many, the Ruger #1, other falling blocks, without taking metal out of the feed trough.
To get the same and/or more powder space as a cut back, really shortened, BMG case, like M&G,
wildcatted to 585, or other short cases, we made longer case and worked with guys
with a group buy, to get a factory run made. A miracle. We thank all gun nuts for the help.

Here is picture from the great site, cartridgecollector dot net, of the M&G Mag .Ed

The question is, how long before states that require shotgun only decide that a gun that for all intent and purpose is more rifle than shotgun is not going to be legal in shotgun only areas or shotgun only states. When a brass case is loaded with a single projectile and is loaded into a firearm with a rifled barrel, and that brass casing (cartridge) was made for that specific firearm, is that firearm still a shotgun or is it a rifle? I believe the case can easily be made that it is a rifle doing what a rifle was meant to do, and that is to fire bullets, not shot. I suspect if this comes to the attention of shotgun only states or states with shotgun only areas, they will call it a rifle.

A 12ga is forever and always a 12ga, even when loaded with a single slug and a brass case. A plastic or paper hull does not a shotgun make. Most "shotgun only" states also only allow slugs anyway, so the single projectile thing is a moot point.

I suppose it's worth pointing out as well, most of the "shotgun only" states are adopting a "straight wall cartridge" policy as well, so I don't think it'll be many years before that point becomes completely moot.

For what it's worth, Ed's been working on this thing for a long time and there's a reason that there really aren't a ton of them in the field (no insult). Custom rifles in custom cartridges are a rarity anyway, let alone a cartridge like this that's a bit more thump than the average Joe really needs, so with the cost of Ed's toys compared to something like the Savage 212, nobody is buying one of his "guns" for shotgunning whitetails in Ohio (hate saying "gun" but a No. 1 is a rifle, a 12ga is a shotgun - what's a 12ga No.1?)...

Actually, there are several states that allow buckshot for deer, including PA in some areas, so single projectile is not a moot point. The word shotgun has a meaning, the fact that ammo was made to allow a shotgun shoot single projectile ammo doesn't change that. However, a rifled barreld gun that is made to shoot cartridges with bullets instead of rifled slugs could very easily beconsidered a rifle, not a shotgun, even though it is designated by gauge instead of caliber. Some states could well consider a 24 gauge gun a rifle if it has a rifled barrel when using a metalic or plastic casing and loaded with a bullet instead of a rifled slug which is the case here if I understood what I read. I have alreaded sent an e-mail to the PGC to see what their interpretation is on it for our state.

Oldtimr---It will be interesting to see what happens with this rig because it certainly seems to me that it is purposely designed to circumvent the law.

This isn't the BATFE's first rodeo - rifled shotguns aren't anything new, so this isn't anything they haven't seen before, and nothing that they haven't ruled upon already - it's a shotgun, end of story. There are plenty of rifled shotguns that have been around LONG before Ed started working on these dinosaur guns, heck, there are even models that are built based on a RIFLE ACTION like the Savage 212 and 220 on the market - and the officially recognized ruling is that they are what they say they are - they're shotguns.

If your state's PGC has a different interpretation than to consider a shotgun chambered firearm as a shotgun, then they are diverging from federal law. So if I were a resident of such a foolish state, I'd happily write letters to the law enforcement division of the PGC explaining how their ruling is incorrect, and then I'd hunt with a rifled shotgun, hoping that they tried to take it from me... Pretty hard to win an argument with the BATFE...

Wow, it's a rare thing nowadays when Oldtimr and I agree on something but as I stated long ago on this post, the only thing that is making this a SEEMINGLY shotgun is the fact that the bullet he is loading is sized in gauge rather than caliber. It's basically a straight walled, HUGE bored, RIFLE cartridge. Plain and simple to see. There is a pretty significant difference between a 12 gauge savage 220 or 212 and one of these T-Rex killers. Granted I personally don't give a rat's rear end because I honestly feel that "shotgun only" states are ridiculous. I would agree that "shotgun only" should be used in SOME areas that are a bit more populated than most but to make it a state wide regulation like here in Illinois is sheer lunacy. But hell, I can easily put down a whitetail with my 12ga slug barrel at 200 yards with minimal effort so what the hell is the point of the regulation? These things he is making are pure and simple ways of skirting the regulations. The pressures and velocities far exceed ANY factory made slugs by his own admission. That being said, if I can easily drop a deer at 200 with my factory made 12ga, just how far out could you reach with one of those cannons? I do believe the purpose of the regulation is range limitation which I personally feel we already skirt with our rifled barrels. Hell 30 years ago when Tn had a shotgun only season I was feeling pretty dang sporty dropping a deer at 75 yards! Just my opinion, which is worth just about what was paid for it!

I am sure they would be impressed with your letter. It doesn't matter one iota what BATF acalls something, each state is able to make their own definition of a legal firearm for hunting. What would make you think any state is bound by a federal definition of a firearm in making regulations for legal firearms in that state. You seem to forget about states rights and when laws are passed, defininitions are set to describe what is legal and those definitions do not have to be what you think they should be. The question I posed is a letgitimate question, your reaction to the question is ridiculous. Designating a rifle by gauge instead of by caliber doesn't make it a shotgun. and that gun may not pass muster in some states as a shotgun. I really don't care, but that is a fact, and I posted it as a matter for discussion, not to be told what the feds do or say, because it doesn't matter what they call it, if a state says it isn't legal to use, it doesn't matter what the feds call it. I have an American Derringer that will fire .45 colt ammo or .410 buckshot or shot shells or rifled slug ammo, it is not a shotgun, it is a .45 caliber handgun that will accept .410 shotgun shells, there are revolvers that will shoot .45 colt ammo and .410 shot shells, they are not shotguns, they are .45 caliber handguns that will accept .410 shot shells. The 24 gauge gun in question here could very easly be considered a 24 ga. rifle that can accept a 24 ga. shotshell, even though it was not made for a shot shell. That is the question I posed and your response did not put that question to rest.

and? manufacturers of muzzleloaders have been doing the same for years, whats the difference between hubels shotgun and an ultimate 50 cal muzzleloader?
RR

I believe I already stated that same point when I said " I do believe the purpose of the regulation is range limitation which I personally feel we already skirt with our rifled barrels. " meaning, just how far is to far. I know what you mean there RR, just the point was, how far is to far before you can call something one thing when you have morphed it into something else entirely. Your point on muzzle loaders is a great difference. The very definition of muzzle loader is what makes it what it is. Not the power, range, powder used, or bullet used. There is a grey area here with shotgun only states legal arms use and one that should be addressed.

Yep, how far is too far, I can take a rifle based on a 270 case and kill a deer at 1100 yards, is that too far? If so do we now say the 270 case is not legal? who draws the line? where is it drawn and why?
RR

Because the PURPOSE of the shotgun only regulation was initially for RANGE LIMITATION. Pretty simple to grasp the reasoning behind the questioning don't you think? Some of us are just questioning the legality of using these specially modified T-Rex killers in shotgun only states. Not limiting the range of a RIFLE in RIFLE season. While your argument in comparing this line of questioning to muzzleloaders had some merit, your argument comparing this to a rifle season use of a 270 parent cased RIFLE cartridge has none.

that's where I'm stuck, say 2 guys use the same gun/load, one guy struggles at 100 yards, the other whacks them at 250. so you get the poor shooter another gun and now he is 250 capable, the other guy gets the same weapon, he's now whacking deer at 400 so what do you do? separate them and say you can use this gun to get you to the same range as the 400 yard guy, tell the 400 yard guy he can't use that gun cause it will not be fair to the other guy.
anytime you bring out an innovative product, one will be better able to use it to the most of its capabilities, do you not let everyone take advantage of it?
RR

It has not a thing to do with beng fair. It has to do with states limiting range for safety purposes. Whether it actually contibutes to safety or is simply perception does not matter, it is the reason for the restriction that matters. Making a rifle and calling it a shotgun to circumvent some states regulations or laws is what is in question and what the discussion is about.

The problem isn't capability of the shooter RR, It's with the actual range ability of these things. The whole purpose of shotgun only regulations were to limit the shooting range. Not limiting a hunters ability at shooting. Just plain and simple, they don't want the damn bullet going through the neighbors house so they made these shotgun slug only regulations with the idea behind them of serious range limits. Initially, you would have been pretty damn sporty to be dropping a deer at 100 yards. With today's tech in both ammo as well as in the barrels themselves, 200 is easily reachable. And in my opinion, too far for the initial regulations goal. These things he is making are FAR more capable than your factory made rifled barrel shotguns and by his own admission far more powerful and faster. So the question remains, just how far is to far before you have completely obliterated the goal of the initial regulation?