22 LR ammo boxes have a warning That's 2200 yards so how far is the limit they are trying to set with a shotgun?
RR

You think you are telling me something I do not know? If you read my post you will see that it may just be perception of the people in populated areas that caused the shotgun only areas. However, it doen't matter. Each state has the right to set regulations regarding legal firearms for hunting and the question is, is the firearm in question an attempt to circumvent those regulations that are in place. You can call a cow a goose, however, that doesn't make it a goose. You can call a rifle a shotgun, but it doesn;t make it a shotgun.

:throw: Really? A long range shooter such as yourself really want's to try saying that? Hell I can take my super speed compound Gorilla bow strung at 95 pounds, elevate it to a 35 degree angle and take out a human being 550 yards away with a damn good bit of luck and no wind. That's about the same argument that you just posted. What's POSSIBLE and what's PROBABLE are 2 VERY different questions. A POSSIBLE accidental shooting at a great distance from a .22l is HIGHLY improbable. While a POSSIBLE accidental shooting from a large caliber firearm such as these at a great distance is HIGHLY more probable. Now granted, these range limitations that are imposed upon us in the shotgun only states are more for perceived safety and not actual reality, the inherent limited range of a slug is a bit safer in populated areas.

you really don't get it do you? ponder on it awhile and I'll enlighten you
RR

I do believe you are the one needing enlightenment youngin since you have obviously missed the points made by several of us. You seem to be just wanting to argue.

My problem isn't with these firearms he is making. Hell more power to him (pun intended :patriot: ) I just feel that using these firearms in regulated areas for shotgun only is just too much. They completely negate the restrictions imposed. Whether those restrictions are based off of perceived safety or actual safety is a moot point. The point is, the restrictions are there and these firearms, while cutting edge and creative as hell, are way beyond the perceived safety limitations to range. Plain and simple. Too the point. Hopefully you are now enlightened.

Ed, I'm seriously NOT trying to say that your firearms are not fantastic creations and hell if I was about 10 years younger (as well as 4 or 5 shoulder injuries less) I would more than likely be right there with you making them, shooting them, and having a blast (hey another pun! Go figure :p ) As I said a few weeks ago, I have my share of big bore T-Rex slaying bolder throwers. I just don't feel that they should be allowed in a shotgun only regulated area. Just my opinion bud. Keep on making them as they are interesting and ingenious.

I cut out most of your post to save space, and because it's all irrelevant drivel.

Yes, indeed, the federal government definition for firearms is what states are bound to use for firearms classification. If they choose to refute that definition, then the courts require that they provide their own assessment standard, made public, which has not been established by any state in our union.

Do not confuse REGULATION with DEFINITION. Firearm classification is DEFINED by the federal government, so a DEFINED shotgun is still DEFINED as a shotgun in all 50 states. That's federal law that the states CANNOT violate those definitions and try to re-DEFINE what constitutes a given firearm class.

Now, the states are allowed to REGULATE what they allow for ownership and hunting use, but they are NOT allowed to change the DEFINITION of the firearm. A state can say that they won't allow single projectile shotguns, rifled barrels, high cap magazines, laser sights, night vision, or even purple painted guns, but they cannot change the defined classification of the firearm.

When you get your FFL, they'll teach you that.

Look sunshine, by the way the word is drivel, not dribble, a state can designate what firearms are legal and the law can dictate what a firearm must be to be legal in that state. Don't try to blow smoke up my keister, I used to write some of those definitions both for law and regulation. I have not confused anything, definitions of legal weapons are in both regulations and in the law for use in hunting. You would be better served not trying to tell someone who was involved in setting regulations and law what the states can and cannot do. You may know a lot about firearms, no doubt about that, however, you know little about the laws governing hunting in individual states.


For example, to be legal for the flintlock muzzle loader season in PA a firearm had to have a flintlock ignition system described by the following regulation: 1) Permitted devices. It is lawful to hunt deer during the flintlock muzzleloading deer season with a flintlock muzzleloading firearm. The firearm must be an original or similar reproduction of muzzleloading firearm manufactured prior to 1800. The firearm’s ignition mechanism must consist of a hammer containing a naturally occurring stone that is spring propelled onto an iron or steel frizzen which, in turn, creates sparks to ignite a priming powder. The firearm must have open sights and be a .44 caliber or larger single-barrel long gun or a .50 caliber or larger single-barrel handgun that propels single-projectile ammunition.

(2) Prohibitions. While hunting deer during the flintlock muzzleloading deer season, it is unlawful to:

(i) Use manmade materials attached to the hammer or frizzen to create sparks.


A state can describe the qualifications of a firearm that is legal to use in a particular season, regardless of what the federal law calls the firearm. The feds have no athority to tell the states what is legal and illegal in a state to use for hunting purposes. A flintlock is not necessarily a legal flintlock and a muzzleloader is not necessarily a legal muzzleloader to hunt with in a particular state. This is one example. The long reach of the federal government does not extend to telling the states what firearm they must allow to be used for hunting in a particular state. If a state decides that the 24 ga. so called shotgun with a rifled barrel shooting a metal cartridge loaded with a bullet and not a rifled slug, metal or plactic hull, does not meet their definition of a legal weapon in their shotgun only areas, they have every legal right to do so. While the feds have the authority to define what is a shotgun, handgun or rifle for the purposes of buying and selling firearms, they don't get to tell individual states what they must allow for hunting in their state, unless the hunting is for a federally protected animal or bird, other than that it is a matter of states rights. You are confused, between sale of or the changing of hands of firearms with state hunting laws. Two entirely different animals!

I don't think Oldtimr needs to be schooled on this and I don't know why you're getting all over him in regards to his statements because what he has been saying all along, as well as what super hunt54 and I have stated regarding these firearms Ed is making, is exactly what you have just stated agreeing with him in your last paragraph! None of us have made any statements regarding the BATFE and their gun classifications, but rather what the individual states can accept or reject in regards to hunting in this particular thread.

Thanks for the catch - voice-to-type on my iPhone isn't always perfect.

Show me one single state law that REDEFINES a firearm classification, then we can talk.

What you outlined about the flintlock REGULATION does not change the DEFINED CLASSIFICATION of the firearm. It's still a muzzle loader, but PA REGULATES that only a certain type of muzzle loader is allowed.

PA isn't saying that a muzzle loader isn't a muzzle loader. They're only saying that a certain type of muzzle loader is allowed, and others are disallowed.

Shotgun only states are free to say "no brass cartridges" or "no rifled barrels" but that wasn't the conversation. Without a more specific regulation, a "shotgun only" law would NOT exclude a Savage 212 or one of Ed's 12ga from Hell rigs. Legally, it's a shotgun.

So again, show me ONE SINGLE STATE LAW that reclassifies a firearm - meaning a shotgun becomes a rifle, a rifle becomes a pistol, etc etc. that is in variance to the BATFE definition for that particular classification.

Statements were made that suggested a shotgun isn't a shotgun just because it has brass cartridges, a rifled barrel, and a single projectile:

The state can NEVER call it a rifle. States are free to decide that these models offer an unsporting advantage, so can change their law to reflect that "shotguns" with these certain characteristics are not allowed, or they can make "disallowed lists" that prohibits these specific firearms, and I would have no problem with that, but THE STATE CANNOT SAY THAT A CLASSIFIED SHOTGUN IS NOW CLASSIFIED AS A RIFLE!

States regulate all kinds of stuff, 6" barrel minimums, caliber minimums, kinetic energy minimums, poundage maximums and minimums on bows, etc etc. That's all well and good, but they cannot say that a shotgun is now a rifle.

Here's an example - several years ago, I was planning a hunting trip to a "non-rifle" state. They allowed shotguns and handguns, just no rifles. Now, I found out in my research that they didn't allow single shot rifles with barrels over 14" (maybe 12"?), eliminating contender or stryker type specialty pistols. THEY DIDN'T TRY SAYING THAT A HANDGUN WAS A RIFLE - but they deemed that there was an unsporting advantage for long barreled break or bolt action handguns, so they disallowed them BY REGULATION. They did not reclassify them as a different type of firearm.

A rifled barreled, brass cartridge shotgun might get disallowed, but it's still a shotgun - not a rifle.

You are making a mountain out of a molehill in that a lot of this IMHO is just some miscommunication in what was stated because if you read the last post by Oldtimr he said exactly what you stated in your previous snippy response to him. Opinions and conjecture with some question marks that the gun is more of a rifle than a shotgun is what I'm seeing and not actually saying that it is. What we all mean is this shotgun that Ed is bastardizing, and that's exactly what he's doing, may still be classified as a shotgun under BATFE definition, but the individual states can darn sure classify it as an illegal weapon in a shotgun only zone. I wouldn't be surprised if that could happen the way all of these manufacturers keep pushing the envelope to increase the range with firearms and bows. It's either that or reduce tags because it's possible too many animals could be taken in some areas due to this long range craze in products.

Are you really that thick or are you just trying hard to be. I will try to make this simple so you can understand it. If a state deems a specific firearm not to be within the meaning of what is legal within their law or regulations, they can make it not legal to use, by law or by regulation. You can call, a firearm anything you want it to be in your mind, no matter what the USUFA calls it, however, what you call it doesn't mean a thing if it doesn't meet the requirements of a particular state's laws or regulations. If a state considers a so called shotgun shooting a cartridge loaded with a bullet instead of a rifled slug not to meet their defininition of a shotgun, they are within their legal rights to make it not legal to use. This is what the whole point was to begin with, it may not be legal in all states. I suspect you knew that but you wanted to argue an inarguable point, why, I can only guess. I am done with this thread, if you want to continue to argue the inarguable, have at it, what I have stated is true, regardless of what you believe.

Oh come on!!!!! After the "sunshine" comment I was already making the popcorn :sign0004: :biggrin:

58 pages and look who starts the party!!
RR

Actually NM448 started this "party" when he brought the BATFE into the discussion when all we were talking about was what the states can allow or disallow under their hunting regulations and not what the BATFE might call the device Ed is making!

My point in this was that the FIRST GUY to get caught using one of these in a shotgun only area would be fine. If the law says "shotgun only," then legally, he's using a shotgun, and even though it might not fit the spirit of the law, it fits its letter. A state couldn't judge that first guy's shotgun to be a rifle - so he couldn't get in trouble.

Now, I'd fully agree with the premise that after catching the FIRST GUY, the state would compose a new regulation the next year that would prevent the SECOND GUY from using one.

Nobody would get in trouble - today - for using one of these in a shotgun only area, unless something else in the regs already exists to prohibit it - which is what Oldtimr and Superhunt proposed.

If you knew most of the Police and Game Wardens around here, you would totally understand why I would think they would snatch me up for using one of those things. Most of them couldn't find their butts with a map and don't know diddly about firearms. They would see, Brass Case, rifled barrel, BULLET not a SLUG (which most 12 gauge slugs are now anyway), and say "You got yourself a rifle here boy, time to go see tha judge". Now granted, as you said, it would be EASILY thrown out but who want's to deal with that mess? Firearms season is short enough here without having to lose a day because of stupidity.

You're nit picking NM. We understand the laws, so quit beating a dead horse as they say, LOL!

What it boils down to is this...

THE STATE CANNOT SAY THAT A CLASSIFIED SHOTGUN IS NOW CLASSIFIED AS A RIFLE!

They can prohibit for deer hunting purposes; 12ga FH, 20ga FH, 24ga FH,

slugs loaded hot on 3.5" 12 and 20 ga plastic cases, brass shotgun cases

over 2.5", etc, Nefs with 6 ft barrels.as deer hunting examples. BUT they

can't prohibit a)ownership. b)target shooting, c)reloading for them, etc.

And they can't call the shotgun calibers, rifles, whether rifled or not, whether

the barrels round, hex, or square, 20 inches long or 100 inches long,

plastic or brass or paper cases, backbored, paradox styles,

1 inch diameter or 3 inch diameter,etc.etc...Ed

""THE STATE CANNOT SAY THAT A CLASSIFIED SHOTGUN IS NOW CLASSIFIED AS A RIFLE!""

We understand that! However, the state CAN OUTLAW anything they want to as far as hunting with it and that's the crux of this whole thread! They may not be able to reclassify the item from what it is called by the Feds, but they can certainly disallow it's use if they feel it is too close to being a rifle for hunting purposes. That is done all the time, especially in the midwest states! :sheep:

Ed, the main thing I have been saying here is the fact that the guns you are making far exceed the power and range restrictions that were imposed upon this state. It's quite simple. And the Wardens around here, if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, flies like a duck THEN IT's A TURKEY! 1 out of 10 actually know what the hell they are doing and have a semblance of common sense. ANY chance they even THINK they can make a nickle they break out the citation pad. They even came onto MY OWN PROPERTY once when I was working on one of my rifles at the range and try to cite me for an "Illegal Range" which I happily told them if they weren't off my property within 10 seconds they would be arrested and probably have several less teeth. They had absolutely no right to be on my property, no one had called in to report excess noise (since the neighbors use my range when they want to) nor for anything else. They just thought they could bully someone. I don't bully easily :patriot: . Just stuff like that happens ALL THE TIME around here so why would anyone want to take the chance with one of those firearms?

I take particular exception to this part - mostly because I've been insulted by Chicago's choice to call itself "the heart of the Midwest" for generations.

Knowing you're in MI - you're neither "mid" nor "west".

Most of our states that actually ARE in the Midwest have common sense built into their gun and hunting laws.

If the Mississippi River counts as "the West," like it did 200yrs ago, and the "midwest" and "west" included Illinois, Indiana, Ohio, etc, then sure, there are a lot of foolish things going on.

Out here in the REAL Midwest - we're doin just fine.

Take it however you want! You are turning into one argumentative dude on this thread and now choose to tell us your version of what states are classified as to where, LOL! You took this whole thread off on a tangent when you brought the Feds and BATFE into what was being discussed here as a state law or regulation for hunting purposes and nothing more than that. Please stay with you rifle and ballistics knowledge, as I know what states are classified as midwest. Here is a map of what is considered the midwest states. Whether you like how they are classified is beside the point of how they actually are! :violin:

Well schitt - sometimes I hate being right. I came back to this thread just now because I thought about after that post that I had better go back and put it "I LIGHT HEARTEDLY take offense..." because I was worried someone would take me too literally.

Too late I guess! Ya beat me to it before I could edit my post. I was ATTEMPTING TO, and blatantly failed to, bring a bit of humor back to this thread, which has gotten more traffic in the last month than in about a decade of Ed's posts.

It really has always seemed silly to me that we haven't redrawn our geographical defining lines in ~200yrs. Whether geographically, demographically, industrially, or economically, the lines showing Chicago as the heart of the Midwest, or St. Louis as the Gateway to the West just don't make sense, so I've always thought - as someone that lives mid-central to the U.S. geographically - that it just doesn't make sense that somewhere east of center could be the gateway to the west, or somewhere else east of center could be the heart of the Midwest. It's just silly.

We've bought 20+ more states, tripled, maybe quadrupled, the area of our country, moved our capital, crossed another mountain range and found the farthest ocean... But we still divide the U.S. by the Mississippi!!

It'd be a lot funnier if I was a comedian instead of an engineer. Maybe that's my problem.

Now you're getting smart, as who really cares anyway, LOL! This was the little ditty that chapped my buns: "included Illinois, Indiana, Ohio, etc, then sure, there are a lot of foolish things going on" since it didn't seen to be written to come across as funny.

Sorry to be away so long, health, getting old, and interruptions.
Here is picture of a lightweight Barnes bullet in 24ga FH.
Guys cut the back off of 750gr bullet off to get 500gr weight.



Here is picture 58 cal Minie slug that's little long on the side for our 12ga
sabot, with the front of the slug above the grooves swaged to fit in
sabot. The swaged front third of the slug fits next to the internal ridge in
sabot and the sabot doesn't bulge out.Just run front into a die
and punch it back out.




And some info about 12ga FH and other hopped up shotgun slug loads,
You know we like to use the rifle, IE slower than shotgun, powders.
We like to use IMR 4759 for some loads and RE17 for others where
we have room for larger charges. Those two powders are ignited ok in large
diameter cases like 12ga, 10ga, 16ga, etc, without needing BMG primers.
But we have always been looking for easy to ignite powders of the RE17
type, when cold, that has a speed between IMR 4759 and the RE17.
RE17 uses different process to put the deterrents in the powder to control
speeds, which allows much easier ignition, compared to big majority of rifle
powders with all the deterrent on the outside.

There are some out there made by Nitrochemie Switzerland, who makes
RE17, RE26, RE33, etc, for Alliant. It's the ' RELOAD SWISS' brand available
for those in UK and Europe, They are called RS 40, about same speed
as RE12, RS 50 & 52, same speed as RE15, RE60 & 62 same as RE17.
Also one ' Vihta Vouri ' powder called TR140 available over there,
that Nitrochemie made..

Many guys can't get IMR 4759 anymore, some can't get RE17.
I'd like to get some of RS 40-50-52 powders or V V TR140
into the states, would really be great help for hairy slug load work. Ed

Cool stuff as always Ed, I used to keep up with your thread on the 12ga from Hell over at The Firing Line.

Here is picture of 375 Warlord next to our 585 case he made it from.
He is going to make couple later necked down to 416, and 458.
There is another guy working on doing one necked down to 357 wildcat.



Here is a picture of our poster Biebs on AR, 585 HE, in a MPI stock.
He used a big Enfield action, with a fancy jeweled bolt.



We found couple other big actions for our 585, that can even feed really
long overall length loaded cases, like 4.5" long or more, if you are
using long pointed bullets for real long range target and hunting work.
One is Lawton 8000 Cheytac action, and the other is Stiller Cheytac actions
made similar, just a newer version. Both actions come in 1.45" diameter
and a 1.60" diameter receivers.

And Vestals Gunsmithing in Virginia does great work, decent prices, has
these actions and will build you fancy 585 HEs. .. He has, working with
another guys mag box setup, setup an extra long, good working, single
stack, center feed, magazine..He has one of our 585 HE reamers on hand,
we have barrels, cases, and reloading dies..Ed

Here is couple different setups our guys checking for our 585HE
in a long, Lawton Cheytac action. First laminated thumbhole stock.
Second in a Hogue Compstock. The action can mount a scope rail
like shown on the table in 1st picture or a receiver sight in 2nd picture.
The scope rail is a piccatiny,. if you need long range work.





The stocks used were wide ones for REM long actions, just add recoil
block ahead of recoil inleting for the longer action, drill new screw hole
Open the stock forward to original bolt hole for longer cases and mag.

About Enfields for our case, one of my favorites, Some don't like the
sporterizing, welding bottom metal straight. Many think straightening
is a huge job needing special jigs, etc, Not really, just use one for a jig
with a bolt, to weld on the straight extension, Do top weld, then cut old
extension that is under off with a thin cutting wheel, then weld bottom.
When we bolt the short piece on the one we are straightening, we grind
the short slant off so the added piece lays on there flat.
The one you cut off can be used as the top extension for the next one!!!
Just keep on building...Ed

Here we kill two birds with one stone so to speak,

Best case sizer is the MEC Collet Super Sizer and it can double
as a case holder when we roll crimp. Much better hold than
the ones made to hold cases for crimping, that cost a lot.
Save cost of a holder, plus have best sizer around

Here is a fancy stocked 24ga FH built on a NEF, built by
a guy in Canada. Its straight back, high comb
stock, handles recoil great.Neat looking work... Ed




About our 2.17" 585 BB case for lever guns, pistols, etc,.
It is made from our 585 case cut back to 2.17" long.
With loaded length of about 2.8" work in lever guns, etc.
Work in 71s, later 1886s, Henry steel frames made for 45-70.
One guy is putting one in single shot action set up with
Contender style pistol grip for testing in long rifle barrel,
to simulate pistol recoil..Be very brisk recoil in a case
that holds 110 gr powder under a light Minie bullet.
Maybe work in a Rossi Judge with heavy barrel.
Or rolling block rifles and pistols...Gonna try one in 1887.
Got first one in one of our guys Greener GP for testing..

In some ways big bore shotguns and rifles are sexy.
By looking at the shape of the fire and smoke cloud....
Thanks for picture, to the great NitroExpress Forums site.




Here is picture of another neat sporterizing deal for Enfields.
On those without rear bridge pocket welded up, we just mill down
and shape it so debth of the pocket matches bottom section of
weaver rail and screw or epoxy it in. Shape to drive in hole tight.
Can use as a rear scope ring mount or mount for peep sight
like a compact UTG sight...Ed

Here is a picture from the back of a big Lawton action that
our 585HE fits in nice. Scope rail on there is tapered
for long range shooting.



Here is what our wildcatter buddy is making from our
585HE brass to see how they look and experiment with.
He is getting reamers, dies, and gun setup first for the 375.Ed

A poster reading our threads said '' I'm slowly becoming a recoilapheliac''..
That is neat term , and very glad that folks are catching the big bore fever.

Here is a simple, yet neat peep sight we can use on the rear sporterized
bridges of Enfields, works on other rear bridges also.Including shotguns.
I like peep sights the best for most shooting. They also come with flat
bottoms also for bridges and receivers that are flat on top.



Another picture of the 585 HE one of our guys put in the MPI stock..



Here is another pic of our guys 24ga FH in the NEF




On straight sided cases like our 585 HE the die set has a mouth expander
die to make it easy to insert bullets. The die flares the mouth, but I always
felt that doing what is really a relative relatively sharp flare, and then the slight
roll crimping the same area of the case into a groove on the
bullet or slug, shortens case life.

So I just use expander plug out of the die, by hand, using just the bottom of
of the expander plug and just push it in a little, wobble it around a small
amount, bullet goes in ok, case mouths last longer, good for dozens of loads,
with moderate hunting and target loads.Only takes a few seconds and less
work that has to be done in the press ... Ed

Here is picture of a hard plastic molded shotgun case, holding
a slug, without crimping, a company is experimenting with.
This one with light slug supposed to do over 2000 fps.




Here is video by Corlanes Sporting, Dawson Creek, BC, CAN.
Known as, Rocky Mtn Rifles, video on Youtube of them testing our
585 HE in a barreled action, they are building for a guy. They are
shooting it into their big bullet trap with test load..



Here is picture of Rossi SS with 585 barrel mono-blocked into it,
chambered for our 585 BB 2.17" case, to do testing in a light rifle
with just pistol grip to simulate the case in pistols. Others going to
put case in leverguns, autoloaders. We got plenty of cases Ed

Here is picture of a great old time 8bore double.
I like those old outside hammer, big bore guns.



The looks of most break actions singles aren't the greatest, that we
we used for 12ga FH, 10ga FH, other caliber barrels we mono-blocked
in them like .585" for 585HE and our 24ga FH.. One that is close
that we have is the Magtech.

Well the guys have found one that is super strong lockup and looks
real nice. And has the good quality look. It comes 12ga light shot barrel,
soon be monoblocked to rifled 24ga FH, the little brother of the 585HE.

We told company if they did them with NEF style, rifled, heavy slug barrel,
for shotgun caliber only hunters, they couldn't make them fast enough.




Here is picture of 585HE, In an Enfield that Bret and Darrel in Minn
set up with great camo finish, with nice brake job.. Ed

We will have arrived when we have this big bore in our back yard,
Kind of a neat suppressor,




Here is folder shotgun guys set up as 24ga FH.




Here is another view of what we feel is a nearly perfect
break action. Guy is making a strong 24ga FH with it.




Here is picture of a 585HE MRC PH a guy set up..




Here is picture of our shorter 585 BB for leverguns, etc,
with a variety of bullets..Ed

Here is a Midland break action a guy is doing in 24ga FH.



Here is old catalog picture of different stuff used in old days
for shotgun loads. Some would be hairy in brass cases



Here is picture of a MN a guy is doing 585HE in..
It is singleshot. Redid bolt handle mounted it on the bolt
further bac, so the port could be lengthened for our long case.
Needs polishing and blueing, scope rail added.



Here is another picture of the 585HE with great looking stock.
Nice looking wood. Ed

There are guys on Castboolits forum experimenting with
locking on plastic bases securely on slugs.
Making their own front heavy ones for smoothbores.

Here is picture of our 585BB case next to long 585HE.




Here is another view of the great camo job on the
585HE Enfield, a top view. Ed

.
Here is a helix driver seal we made by cutting base from helix driver

wadcup, good for fullbore roundballs that are too big to go in cup.

Best one to cut off is shortest `12ga one BPI has.






Here is picture of a 585HE made on a Stiller bolt action for guy in Canada.

It was made for the poster Spooksar on Africa Hunting and Accuratereloading,

by Corlanes/Rocky Mountain rifles, in Dawson Creek BC Canada, with a

Stiller action, Timney trigger. the stock is a blue/grey laminate. He imported

the barrel, cases, dies, etc.. from us, through Prophet River in Lloydminster AB.






That action similar to Lawton we had and neighbor got, that won the King Of The

2 Mile shoot at Whittington, with the 375 Lethal cartridge the neighbor made,

from our 585 brass. Made it full length case,.. It is big one on the right.

He made an 18 lb gun with McMillan target stock, a huge scope, tripod..

Nice thing is we don't need BMG action.






Here is picture of a case a Trex owner made using our 585 brass, by putting

a piece of 11/16 tubing ,cut a piece 2/10 of an inch long with a tube cutter chamfered

the cut side a bit and tapped it on the case down to the belt with the brass pipe

and fireformed it in the T Rex chamber.......Made a perfect fitting case.

Cut our brass to 3" to fit shorter trex specs. He was out of brass

and couldn't find more, so he invented his own. And our rim was big

enough so his extractor still worked ok....His original Trex case base is .685"

and our rim and belt on first case run, is .655" diameter, and base ahead

of the belt on unfired cases .631" and the brass sleave pushed up tight to the

belt just takes up that little difference. Ed.

We have heard that fellow big bore nut, Nathan Vale in AUS, is working

with Bertram in making a run of the full length 12ga From Hell cases.

Drawn 12ga long cases as strong as BMG brass with unbreakable rims.

Any wanting to get some, and get in on the run, contact Bertram

at the email ----- [email protected] ......





Some more on wildcat 375 Lethal.......

.375 Lethal Precision Arms LLC rifle shooting prototype solid 400gr Berger bullets.

Mitchell built this rifle himself using a McMillan A5 Super Mag stock, Rock Creek barrel,

Nightforce ATACR MOA scope, Phoenix Precision Bipod, and a Lethal Precision Arms

muzzle brake. Lawton Action. Lethal Precision his own gunsmith shop, will make

these target rifles for anyone into target shooting and long range hunting..


Remarkably, Mitchell nailed first- and second- shot hits at the 2477-yard target,

a full 1.4 miles away. It is windy out there, makes shooting hard with a time limit.

The prototype 400 grain Berger Bullets solid was superb, (G7 BC of 0.56 at 3000 fps).






Here is 585 HE in an Enfield, in a Choate Heavy Varmint Stock. These are super strong.

The butts of these can easily be weighted. Couple guys doing them....... Ed