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How Bullets Work
The wound cavity produced by a bullet is what kills deer. Wound cavities come in two types: permanent and temporary. A permanent wound cavity, crush cavity or wound channel is the actual tissue that the bullet destroys as it passes through the animal. A temporary or stretch cavity is caused by the hydrostatic displacement of tissue during expansion and penetration. This cavity is not as destructive, but can bust blood vessels and tear organs. Generally, stretch cavities are more violent with lightly constructed bullets and high velocities.
Bullets or wound cavities kill whitetails in several ways. Blood loss due to the damage caused by permanent or stretch cavities can ultimately lead to the deer’s death if the right blood vessels or organs are damaged. Strangulation or suffocation can also be a cause of death when both lungs are extensively injured or become filled with blood.
Lungs that have collapsed or are full of blood will not allow a deer to stay on its feet long. Structural damage caused by a bullet’s permanent cavity can put a deer on the ground or at least slow them, but structural damage alone does not kill. A whitetail can go a long way with damage to more than one shoulder or leg. And while a bullet that penetrates the spinal column might drop a deer instantly, in many cases a coupe de grâce is required to prevent suffering.
Photo: All of these bullets were recovered from white-tailed deer. (Left to right): 100-grain Hornady .257 Interlock; 180-grain Remington Core-Lokt SP; 170-grain 8mm Remington Core-Lokt; 200-grain .35-caliber Federal Hi-Shock SP.
Finally, deer can also be put down with a shock to the nervous system. Bullets that strike in or near high nerve concentrations can create massive shock via the crush or stretch cavities. This can drop an animal like lightning. If the bullet also manages to hit the spine or cause massive damage to the lungs or heart, the deer might not take another step.
Penetration
You do not have to shoot completely through a whitetail to kill it. But sometimes you might have to shoot though a whole lot of deer to get the bullet into a place that will kill it. To be sure, in order to inflict a substantial amount of damage on a whitetail, the bullet needs to penetrate deep enough. Some will argue the bullet should remain in the deer, thus transferring all of its energy.
But in reality, a bullet does not possess a great deal of energy, certainly not enough to knock a deer down. The benefits of a “for sure” exit wound far outweigh any imagined knockdown power a bullet might possess. Those one-shot knockdowns you witness in the field are not a result of the animal being slammed to the ground by the bullet’s impact. They come from immediate failure of the deer’s support structure or nervous system.
Photo: Better expansion and weight retention would be hard to find. This Naturalis bullet from Lapua for the 9.3x62 is picture perfect. The bullet was recovered from dry paper.
Blood trails are always better when they come from two holes instead of one. And a bullet that has enough power to reach the vitals on both sides, regardless of the shot angle, gives us confidence. If your particular gun/bullet combination is only capable of putting a bullet through the lungs to stop under the hide on the far side, what happens if your aim is a bit off and the bullet strikes a shoulder on the way in? It might never reach the heart or both lungs. Complete penetration is best.
Expansion, Weight and Velocity
The more a bullet expands, the more resistance it meets during penetration, and the larger crush cavity it leaves behind. However, a bullet can overexpand or even come apart after penetration, leaving a violent but shallow crush and stretch cavity.
Most hunting bullets reach full expansion by the time they have traveled 8 inches inside a deer. I have verified this by testing bullets in various mediums, examining harvested deer and talking with bullet technicians from Nosler, Federal and Winchester. Expansion is driven by velocity. The higher the velocity at impact, the more a bullet will expand. Impact velocity dictates expansion, not the depth a bullet travels within the animal.
Some claim that premium bullets are constructed too tough to reliably expand in deer. That’s simply not true. With a premium bullet, expansion is slowed, and the hydrostatic stretch cavity is not as pronounced as with fast-expanding bullets. Premium bullets do create wide, deep crush cavities due to their higher retained weight and good expansion.
Retained weight gets a lot of attention, but the concept can be misleading. Bullets are not constructed of valuable metals, and you are not going to reuse them. So why do we make a big deal about high weight retention when ideally you should be shooting through deer and unable to recover bullets? Partly because a bullet that retains more weight appears to be tougher made, and “tough” sounds good. The truth is that most bullets considered suitable for deer will retain around 50 percent or more of their initial weight as long as they are used at the velocity levels for which they were designed.
Photo: The Nosler Partition loses its front core during expansion, creating a massive wound channel. The jacket and rear continue to penetrate after the bullet upsets.
To fully understand expansion, you have to realize that bullets are designed to open or expand within a certain velocity range. Generally speaking, standard bullets like Winchester Power Points and Silvertips, Remington Core-Lokts, Speer Hot Core, Hornady Interlock and even Nosler Ballistic Tips intended for modern cartridges, are engineered to perform best at impact velocities between 1,800 and 2,800 fps. Bullets designed for cartridges that operate at slower velocities, like the .30-30 Winchester, .35 Remington and .45-70, will expand at velocities as low as 1,500 fps and work well up to about 2,500 fps.
Premium bullets like Nosler Partitions, Barnes X, Speer Grand Slams and Trophy Bonded Bear Claws offer high weight retention, which in theory should increase penetration because a heavier bullet is harder to stop.
It is important to apply common sense when using any bullet. You would not want to use a .30-30 bullet in a .300 Ultra Mag. It would likely come to pieces just under the hide of a whitetail at such high velocity. And a bullet designed for the .300 Winchester Magnum might not open up at .30-30 velocities. But, at 100 yards, the .30-30 will kill a deer just as well as the .300 Ultra Mag with the proper bullet. The key is to find a balance between expansion, weight retention and velocity. John Nosler did this many years ago when he created the Nosler Partition.
Many hunters do not understand premium bullets. A friend who has hunted all over the world told a story about a Nosler Partition that, in his words, failed. He had shot a sheep at an outrageous range. He recovered the bullet and found that it had lost its front core. He swore that was the last Partition he would use.
Nosler Partitions are designed to work under heavy stress. By losing the front core during expansion, they create a massive wound channel. Then, the remaining jacket and intact rear travel through the animal, creating additional destruction. This front core loss is the Partition’s way of dealing with difficult penetration and high velocity – kind of like a built-in safety mechanism.
Partitions had served my friend well for many years until he hit a critter that was so far away, velocity was insufficient to poke the bullet out the other side of the beast.
You can test bullets in various mediums to find out how they will perform in that material. It’s a good way compare different bullets. I have done just that, using sand, dirt, and wet and dry paper. It is an interesting but tedious task that is difficult to pull off at public shooting ranges. It is much easier to facilitate if, like mine, your range is behind your house. Still, the only true test of a deer bullet is a deer.
In the real world, picking the right bullet for whitetail hunting is not that complicated; deer are not that tough. There are some rules of thumb that you can go by to keep you out of deer bullet trouble:
• At impact velocities over 3,000 fps, always use premium bullets.
• For impact velocities less than 2,800 fps, standard bullets work just fine.
• With borderline impact velocities between 2,800 and 3,000 fps, standard bullets that are heavy for the caliber, like a 180-grain .30 caliber or a 150-grain .277 caliber, can add extra insurance.
• If you are using a bullet that is light for the caliber or bullets under 100 grains, a premium bullet is never a bad choice.
Of course, you could take the advice of good friend and custom rifle builder Charlie Sisk: “Load a Nosler Partition, shut up and go hunting.” That philosophy does not offer much variety, but it’s sure hard to argue with.
– Richard A. Mann II

DannyD

Don't take this the wrong way b/c I am not a parent, but I am a son.

You seem like a great father, but one thing you need to also watch out for is pushing her too hard. Its like kids with sports such as football. If you push them too hard, make it into a life or obsession rather than fun, then they will in return hate it.

This happened to me with football. I was starting left guard on a 4A state championship team and walked away w/o a blink b/c I was tired of being pressured.

You said she shot that doe at 128yds with a 30-30. That right there shows that shes pretty darn good.

What kind of .270 do you have? My .270win has less recoil than any 30-30 that i've shot. I am sure it would be too long for her, but hey, give it a wack.

Also on the .223 topic. I shot a deer a couple of years ago. A doe on a dog drive. When I walked up to her she began to kick and na (how ever you spell it). She just looked up at me with those big brown eyes and started "screaming". I had to shoot her again. I drug her out, cleaned her. Went home, put my guns in my safe and left them there for weeks. It literally brought me to tears. If that would have been a 12yr old girl. I am sure she would have walked away from hunting and become a vet. Not saying that this would happen, but you are greatly increasing the odds with such a small caliber. Remember that most bullets for that gun were either made to wound a man or kill a rodent.

Strut,
Good point. She has played soccer since she was six and has played club (travel) soccer now since she was 10. I was warned about the pitfalls of pushing kids early on and have observed it happening to others.
Fortunatly she seems to be the one that is obsessive. She asked to be put on a weight program (i did), asks me to take her to UNC womens soccer games (6 hour drive ans we do). Has gone to several Soccer camps over the years including UNC and UK.
She is a little bit that way with hunting. She can't wait to get out there. The only part she was struggling with was practicing with the 30-30. I'm not going to force that anymore other than a shot or two before the season. She'll eventually grow into it.

I have a Rem 710 Camoin 270 that was given to me as a gift. I like the gun and it shoots great at the rangebut it looks like others have had bad luck with the model.

I've always thought about what would happen if we walked up on a shot deer like you described. I'm sure that could happen with any caliber though maybe just more of a chance with the 223 possibly and I expect it will one day happen to us.

Truthfully, I hope she just always sticks with the 30-30. It's a Marlin 336 and i just love that gun

PS. My other daughter (14) is a high school cherrleader that has loved football and baseball since she was 6. I take her to pro and college football games (she'd go every week if we could afford it) When she was 9 she could name every Tampa bay Buc. Geez. Big Giants, Jets and Yankee fan

zrexpilot i hope this is not the same writer that said my mini 14 was a great shooting rifle. over the years i have found out that most writers only have to know a little bit more about the subject than the people reading it to be a writer. for every writer that says one thing there are ussually twice that many that dissagree. just something to think about. see yaaaaaa

Actually many people do die from blows. How bout you volunteer to take one shot to the body from the current world heavy weight and claim energy doesn't kill, and treat kinetic energy like an unproven theory. You could also throw your body from a tall building comfterble in the fact that after striking the ground that you'll live the 1-2 minutes a human takes to bleed out from massive internal hemroging, or just die instantly like the rest of the people who have had the misfortune (on purpose or otherwise,) of finding this out. We could relive the awful capital punishment of burning people at the stack were energy burns and cauterizes your wounds so no bleeding occurs yet still you end up deader then a door nail. Or better yet you would do us all a favor if you licked your fingers and stick them up a live light bulb socket. It will be magic in your world how you die with no blood loss from this one. Stop arguing with straw man tactics, it's annoying.

Geez. No wonder I have a hard time picking a caliber. NowI don't know whether to punch it in the head, shoot it so it falls off a cliff, light the bullet on fire or attach an electric cord to the bullet like a tazer.
I'm new and still trying to sort out all the balistics stuff. it looks like i'm not the only one as i read all the posts. I have formulated some of my own opinions but i see posts that verify those and posts that destroy them. At this point I only know we are 2 for 2 with the 30-30 out to 128. Anything else is just theory for me

Not on this subject
heres another one.
copied and pasted.

III.c. Thresholds of Wounding Potential Based on Kinetic Energy

I think it was the sage and revered (and great favorite of mine) Col. Townsend Whelen who first proposed the idea that modern sporting arms ought to deliver at least 1000 ft-lbs of kinetic energy on the target for quick dispatch of deer and 2000 ft-lbs for larger species such as elk (Craig Boddington, American Hunting Rifles, Safari Press, 1995, pg. 20). This guidance has been reiterated for probably half a century or more now, but the world of smallbore ballistics today is very different than in the days when the esteemed Colonel was at the forefront of modern military small arms development with the U. S. Army Ordnance Department. Moreover, here is what he had to say in his own treatise on the subject of "Killing Power" over sixty years ago:


"The killing power of a bullet in flight depends entirely upon the average size of the wound it makes in the animal, and upon nothing else. The size of the wound in turn depends upon the size, weight, construction, and shape of the bullet, and the velocity with which it strikes, and upon no other details. ... We frequently see it stated that the killing power of a cartridge depends upon its energy, and tables of the properties of cartridges often give the energy of each. Now energy depends upon the weight of the bullet times its velocity, and on nothing else, and thus can have only a very distant bearing on our subject." (Townsend Whelen, The Hunting Rifle, Stackpole Sons, 1940, pg. 236)

An important fact to remember is that not all energy is "created equal". What this ultimately means is that a kinetic energy value used as a measure or threshold for lethality is practically meaningless. The character of the work done by a certain quantity of kinetic energy will be dependent upon the mass, construction and velocity of the projectile. In other words, 1000 ft-lbs of kinetic energy generated by a slow-moving rock is not as lethal as that of a bullet. Furthermore, the damage actually caused by a lesser amount of kinetic energy may easily exceed that caused by a greater quantity of kinetic energy! Expressed differently, kinetic energy has "quality" as well as "quantity". This is easier to understand in terms of heat energy, which has temperature (degrees F or C) as well as quantity (BTUs or Joules). Kinetic energy is governed by similar laws.

As further evidence of this fact, observe that when terminal ballistic experiments are scaled the velocity is held constant. Kinetic energy, mass and the dimensions are scaled, but velocity is not. In like manner pure water at standard pressure boils at 100° C, regardless of quantity. A small amount of water does not boil at a lower temperature than a larger amount. The heat required to bring a quantity of water to a boil is directly proportional to the mass of the water (just as the kinetic energy is proportional to the volume of displacement by a bullet), but the character of the work done on the water by that heat energy is determined by the temperature it produces. It is velocity, not kinetic energy, which is the quantity of greatest interest in the terminal ballistics of small arms.

Since a knowledge of the velocity and projectile construction is essential to evaluating the character of the kinetic energy and its wounding potential, simply relying on a quantity of energy can be quite misleading. The way in which a sporting bullet (say, a 7 mm 140 gr spitzer boat-tail at an impact velocity of 3000 fps) expends its first 1000 ft-lbs of kinetic energy on a target (from 2797 ft-lbs to 1797 ft-lbs) will little resemble the way in which it expends its last 1000 ft-lbs (at an impact velocity of 1794 fps, where it will most likely fail to deform and simply drill straight through causing a neat little hole with negligible cavitation). In the former case, a lung shot would result in a wide wound track and a gaping exit wound as it exits the body at 2405 fps, but cause rapid collapse; in the latter case even a lengthwise shot which fully absorbed the energy of the projectile would probably mean a lost game animal because of the low probability of causing rapid hemorrhage. Interestingly, in the former case probably 20% or more of that kinetic energy would be lost to deformation of the bullet, whereas in the latter case all of it would be delivered to the target. However, that same 1000 ft-lbs of energy delivered by a .41 caliber 280 gr LBT-WFN flatnosed hard-cast bullet at 1268 fps would quickly drop a bull elk with the same lung or lengthwise shot because its larger diameter and strong flat nose would create a large diameter and deep wound even after smashing through heavy shoulder bones. [Incidentally, this misunderstanding is not confined to the ballistics of sporting arms. I have encountered the notion in the last of year or so of a tank killing threshold of 10 MJ.]

A popular term among some gun buffs is the "foot-ton", a magical quanta of kinetic energy that is supposed to translate into all sorts of killing authority. Aside from the problem described above in assigning an arbitrary kinetic energy level for lethality against a type of game, there is the matter of unit definitions. If you like to think of it as the energy required to raise a one ton block a distance of one foot, that would be correct (again, not necessarily the same as being crushed by that falling block!). Forget the comparison to automobile impacts.

and yet another one.
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4. Presumption of "Kinetic Energy Deposit" to Be a Mechanism of Wounding:
Serious misunderstanding has been generated by looking upon "kinetic energy transfer" from projectile to tissue as a mechanism of injury. In spite of data to the contrary (1, 63), many assume that the amount of "kinetic energy deposit" in the body by a projectile is a measure of damage (2-5, 36, 37, 40). Such opinions ignore the direct interaction of projectile and tissue that is the crux of wound ballistics. Wounds that result in a given amount of "kinetic energy deposit" may differ widely. The nondeforming rifle bullet of the AK-74 (Fig 6) causes a large temporary cavity which can cause marked disruption in some tissue (liver), but has far less effect in others (muscle, lung, bowel wall) (9). A similar temporary cavity such as that produced by the M-16 (Fig 2), stretching tissue that has been riddled by bullet fragments, causes a much larger permanent cavity by detaching tissue segments between the fragment paths. Thus projectile fragmentation can turn the energy used in temporary cavitation into a truly destructive force because it is focused on areas weakened by fragment paths rather than being absorbed evenly by the tissue mass. The synergy between projectile fragmentation and cavitation can greatly increase the damage done by a given amount of kinetic energy.
A large slow projectile (Fig 7) will crush (permanent cavity) a large amount of tissue, whereas a small fast missile with the same kinetic energy (Fig 4) will stretch more tissue (temporary cavity) but crush little. If the tissue crushed by a projectile includes the wall of the aorta, far more damaging consequences are likely to result than if this same projectile "deposits" the same amount of energy beside this vessel.
Many body tissues (muscle, skin, bowel wall, lung) are soft and flexible--the physical characteristics of a good shock absorber. Drop a raw egg onto a cement floor from a height of 2 m; then drop a rubber ball of the same mass from the same height. The kinetic energy exchange in both dropped objects was the same at the moment of impact. Compare the difference in effect; the egg breaks while the ball rebounds undamaged. Most living animal soft tissue has a consistency much closer to that of the rubber ball than to that of the brittle egg shell. This simple experiment demonstrates the fallacy in the common assumption that all kinetic energy "deposited" in the body does damage.
The assumption that "kinetic energy deposit" is directly proportional to damage done to tissues also fails to recognize the components of the projectile-tissue collision that use energy but do not cause tissue disruption. They are 1) sonic pressure wave, 2) heating of the tissue, 3) heating of the projectile, 4) deformation of the projectile, and 5) motion imparted to the tissue (gelatin bloc displacement for example).
The popular format for determination of "kinetic energy deposit" uses a chronograph to determine striking velocity and another to determine exit velocity. A 15-cm thick block of tissue simulant (gelatin or soap) is the target most often used. This method has one big factor in its favor; it is simple and easy to do. As for its validity, the interested reader is referred to wound profiles shown in Figs 1-7. Comparing only the first 15 cm of the missile path with the entire missile path as shown on the profiles shows the severe limitation of the 15-cm block format. The assumption by weapons developers that only the first 15 cm of the penetrating projectile's path through tissue is of clinical significance (64) may simplify their job, but fails to provide sufficient information for valid prediction of the projectile's wounding potential. The length of bullet trajectories through the human torso can be up to four times as long as those in these small blocs. Even if this method were scientifically valid, its use has been further flawed by nearly all investigators who have included the M-16 rifle bullet in those projectiles tested. This method assumes that the projectile's mass remains constant through both chronographs. The M-16 routinely loses one third of its mass in the form of fragments which may remain in the target (see Fig 2). The part of the bullet that passes through the second chronograph screens weighs only about two-thirds as much as the intact bullet that passed through the first set of screens. No provision is made for catching and weighing the projectile to correct for bullet fragmentation when it occurs. The failure to correct for loss of bullet mass can cause large errors in "energy deposit" data (8).
Surgeons sometimes excise tissue from experimental missile wounds that is, in their judgment, nonviable and compare the weight of tissue excised with the "kinetic energy deposited" (65). A surgeon's judgment and his technique of tissue excision is very subjective, as shown by Berlin et al (66), who found in a comparison that "One surgeon excised less tissue at low energy transfers and rather more at high energy transfers than the other surgeon, although both surgeons used the same criteria when judging the tissues." None of these experiments included control animals to verify that tissue the surgeon had declared "nonviable" actually became necrotic if left in place. Interestingly, all studies in which animals were kept alive for objective observations of wound healing report less lasting tissue damage than estimated from observation of the wound in the first few hours after it was inflicted (43-47, 67, 68). In a study of over 4,000 wounded in WW II it was remarked, "It is surprising to see how much apparently nonvital tissue recovered" (69).
Anyone yet unconvinced of the fallacy in using kinetic energy alone to measure wounding capacity might wish to consider the example of a modern broadhead hunting arrow. It is used to kill all species of big game, yet its striking energy is only about 50 ft-lb (68 Joules)-- less than that of the .22 Short bullet. Energy is used efficiently by the sharp blade of the broadhead arrow. Cutting tissue is far more efficient than crushing it, and crushing it is far more efficient than tearing it apart by stretch (as in temporary cavitation).

DannyD

LoL. It happens every time. By the 3rd post its all about something totally different than what you asked.

I hear ya on the soccer and stuff. Also good that they are in sports. Keeps them out of trouble. One reason my father would pay my fee for a hunting club to this day if I can't come up with the xtra money. I have a little cuz that is as dedicated and pretty much obsessed with softball. She is 11yrs old and fast pitches 52MPH. We are just concerned that she doesn't burn out her arm. Her dad fired her pitching coach b/c all he was teaching her is how to pitch faster and not proper form. I am not sure how this new one is doing. I haven't talked to him in a couple weeks.

I have also read a lot of bad things about the 710. I've never shot one or know anyone who has. So I don't have any experince with it. I have a Remington 700.

I am sure with her that active in sprots she has some muscle mass and should be able to man handle the 30-30, esp. in a season or two. And if not, you could also have her dispace some energy by walking up to the deer and kicking it in the rib cage![&:]

She is a little obsessed with soccer. She insisted on wearing her UNC womens soccer sweatshirt while hunting. topped off with her orange vest and she was ready to go. Sat at the edge of a field with no camo (Pic on page 6).

Now she wants a bow. I just havn't had the cash to get her one yet. Should have one by next week though. There gonna be a whole new set of questions there.
especially about enough draw weight, broadhead etc...The draw weight question will probably turn out just like the 223 question.