That would be nice, but the fact is energy doesnt kill. Never has never will. Energy is a mathmatical theory.

"energy doesnt kill. Never has never will. Energy is a mathmatical theory"

All right you may whoop me on this one, but I have to respond anyway!lol Energy is real, but takes many forms. The quantification of it often involves mathematics. The sun creates energy in various forms. One form is light. Focus that light with a magnifying glass on a piece of paper and it'll manifest in an increase in heat. I don't even need math todetermine a change, I canobserve it. Focus thatenergywith the magnifying glass on the back of your hand and you can discern it without even seeing it.

I believe the theory is that we cannot create energy, just transform it. A rifle is fired, the powder is burned, tranforming the energy stored in the powder into the form of hot, rapidly expanding gasses. A good portion of that energy is transfered to a chunk of lead. Some of it is transfered (we call it lost) in transit, some remains with the bullet. When it impacts the animal, most (hopefully) of that energy is transfered to the the tissue of the animal--causing massive tissue damage in the process. The massive tissue damage killed the animal, but the transfer of energy caused the massive tissue damage. Maybe zrexpilot, we just differ in our definition of energy.

This is where I disagree. Energy doesnt create the tissue damage, or wound channell. This is created by the diameter of the bullet as it passes through tissue, the bigger and faster, the more tissue damage. More velocity will create more tissue damage.
But then you get into penetration, and thats another subject. To me whitetail deer are thin skinned animals, not requiring mass penetrating guns. .22's will penetrate without a problem, mushroom adequate (.35 diam.) and coupled with their highvelocity, create substantial tissue damage.

I still think we are talking about basically the same thing. A bullet with more mass absorbs more of the initial energy from the powder burn. Velocity is a measure of energy. I expect, and it would likely take a physicist to determine the exact point, that there is a point where a larger, heavier, slower bullet; and a faster, smaller, lighter bullet, would provide the same amount of energy at impact.Both weight and velocity (as well as how the bullet mushrooms and holds together on impact) affect the amount of tissue damage done. That is one reason why the heavier arrow vs. faster arrow--which penetrates best--is always debatable. At the same speedof impact the heavier arrow will penetrate better (all other things being equal). Some people get good penetration with light arrows and I expect they have fast bows. Others shoot slow bows, but get great penetration with heavy arrows.

When you say"the bigger and faster, the more tissue damage", are you saying because of a deeper larger wound channel? I propose that the damage goes well beyond the wound channel. I've field dressed deer that had been double lung shot in which the lungs where basically destroyed beyond fragments. I've also seen deer with the same shot placement with a smaller caliber in which the lungs remained relatively intact.

Yes,I think.
A heavier slower bullet will penetrate more than a smaller faster one, but likeI said a deer doesnt require a 45-70 to get penetration. However higher velocity's do create more tissue damage. Take any given projectile and the faster you push it the more the bullet will mushroom AND cause more tissue damage, not only from the diameter but the shock wave of the velocity.
A 150gr bullet ,say from a 30-06 wil have less damage than say 150 gr from a .300 mag, because of the slower velocity.
Like I said were talking whitetails here, were not getting into penetration. both will pass through a deer but the wake of the higher velocity ( not energy) leaves more tissue damage. You can have a slowerbigger bullet,with more energy and more penetration but a smaller bullet at higher speeds can leave more disruption of tissue, than the heavier bullet, but at the cost of less penetration. I believe in matching calibers to the size of animal your shooting. I belive a 30-06 offers no more on whiteails than a .243. But does offer more on say, a moose. ( penetration )
I use a .243 exclusively and have for 25 years, it liquifies lungs on deer, some drop some run, no more than 40 yds, ever.
I thinkbiiger sometimespierces rather than disrupts, now you can use a lot softer bullet insay the30-06 to get it to blow up, and thats exactly whatI think is needed if you were to use a 30-06 on whitetails, balistic tips would be my choice. Not nosler partitions, that would be for big game. Smaller calibers are perfect for whitails. a 30-06 is a big game gun in my book, 270 on down are deer rifles and have been for a long time, untill recently, when people want the biggest baddest. Which really offer no more on whitetails. Maybe extended ranges is all.
A slow heavy bullet will have more energy than a smaller faster bullet, but will offer less tissue disruption but more penetration.

Reb,
Gone 7 years. Still have relatives in Venice, Spring Hill, and Sun City Center

Most of the time a animal drops in its tracks from a bullet wound ,its from the shock genarated from the bullets energy being transfered to the animals spinal cord. Its my belief this is created from the bullet hitting the body and expanding to transfer its energy to the animal.If a bullet passes thur going 10,000fps or just 2000fps that has to take place at some point and time. I am not expert in bullet consruction ,but I did sleep at a holiday inn express last night!!!

I just had to quote this on zrex!! You are saying the same thing everyone else is, you just don't want to admit it, lol. There is only one way for anything to pass through another object. In order for one object to pass through another object, it needs ENERGY to do so. If there is no energy in object A, there will be no damage to object B. Its that simple. Now, the energy may be different for different bullets, arrows, rocks, whatever, fact is you need energy to kill something. There is energy in the bow string. There is energy in the fire of the primer that sets off the powder charge. There is energy in the spring that releases the firing pin! Everything has energy. We all live because of energy. If it weren't for the energy of the sunlight heating the planet and making plants grow, nothing on earth would survive. Also the energy of the sun can kill a person, provided they don't act accordingly. It takes energy for your car to start, and energy for a bullet to go through a deer's chest!! Now how much energy is really needed I guess depends on the specific animal, and exactly where the bullet hits an animal, and how well that bullet transfers its energy to that animal!! Now, here is the point I think people are trying to make concerning where the .223 is not a good choice for deer!! If you hit a deer with a 55 grain Soft Point from a .223 in the Shoulder Blade, chances are, the deer will make it quitea ways. I wouldn't expect a 55 grain bullet at 2900 FPS would be able to penetrate completely through both lungs of a deer after striking the shoulder blade. Now take a .30-06 with a 165 grain bullet and put it through the shoulder blade. Big difference, it will go clean through and then some. I shot a cow a while back with my .223 (we were butchering one). I hit it with a 45 grain Speer soft point, in the head, just left of the eye, and slightly above. We never found the bullet. The bullet only contacted maybe 1/8" of bone total, and completely fragmented. Turned the brain to, well, lets just say "mush." Of course why wouldn't it with who knows how many tiny pieces of whatever going through in such a confined space. I don't know about you, but I sure wouldn't want to rely on a hole bunch of tiny bullet fragments going through a deer's chest for who knows how far, but rather a larger bullet that I know will make it all the way through without a problem!

Sorry for the long winded post, just couldn't help myself.

Yeah, I'm not saying a .223 won't kill a deer. It obviously will. Personally I've NO experience with that caliber. There is always a difference between what can do the job, and what the average hunter would be wise to use. I know people who kill elk with a .243. Personally, I prefer a bit bigger caliber, not because the .243 won't do the job, but I prefer something that will increase the odds of finnishing the animal off more quickly if I fail in my accuracy. Wyoming doesn't allow the hunting of big game with any thing smaller than .23 caliber. They have to draw a line somewhere in compensation for a lack of judgement on the part of some hunters. No doubt there are many wounded and lost animals around the nation that were shot with the larger magnums as well. The .50 caliber would probably be the best choice to put the animal down....but do we all really want that! lol

By the way DannyD, I forgot to say--before I contributed to the hijacking of the thread--tell that little gal of yours congratualtions on her doe!