BareBack Jack

Well said Red well said.
I have felt the wrath of the non-magnum shooters,I to was a once true blue 30-06 user andI felt it was the only gun I ever needed.But one day that all changed for me and it was not all that long ago maybe 10 years ago.That is when I saw my trusted 30-06 fail,oh it killed the elk,but it took 4 shots(3 in the heart-lungs and 1 in the neck to finish it),all of them were well placed shots,when gutting the cow she had 3 sluggs up against the ribbs on the far side,yes the 30-06 worked but the shot was only 40 yds.Now if a 30-06 can't punch trough at 40 yds what would it do at 200 or 300.To me it only happened once but that was enough,the gun performed but failed in my eyes.For me it all about entrance and exit,none of this"Well it displaced all its energy in the elk" crap,cause if that was true it would have stopped running and died.
I primarly hunt elk andI hunt them in tough areas and when I shoot I want them down and down now,I want big bullets at high velocity.
I don't realy need the range but it is nice to hace I want KE,and FT/Lbs.
If someone don't wanna shoot no magnums then don',t but if you ask what to use for elk or a North American rifle I'm gonna tell you and to me a MAGNUM fits the bill.

It is what I use and you can't turn me back,I have tasted the dark side young Jedi's
BBJ

Todd1700

First off I don't see anywhere close to the level of persecution that Red is talking about at this site. I don't care what you hunt with as long as you follow basic rules of safety and are proficient enough to hit where you aim with it. I have not seenmagnums consistently berated for their use on elk, moose or large bears. I would also never chastise anyone who carried a 300 or 338 mag for deer because his hunting grounds were also grizzly country. What I do see is simply a growing consensus that large magnums are not needed for "Deer Hunting." Apparently that notion offends some people but so be it.

Magnumitis is at an all time high here in Alabama. I am about to speak in general terms about what I see locally here in Alabama and the type guys I know who carry these large calibers for deer. There are always exceptions to everything. If these comments don't describe you or your hunting situationthen that's great. You have no reason to be pissed at me.

The average distance that deer are killed at here in Alabama (a heavily wooded state) is less than 100 yards. There are some large clear cuts and bean fields here and there but they are the exception not the rule. So most of the guys I know that are smacking deer with these hand held howitzers are shooting them at a average distance of about 60 to 70 yards out of a shooting house on the edge of small green fields. Because of the short range the impact velocity of these whiz bang zoom magnums is still greater than 3000 fps. This makes bullet failure, fragmentation and over expansiona very real problem. Alsobecause of the high speed close range impact and the small size of our southern deer the meat damage is horrific. Despite the excessive meat damage most of these guys report a curious thing to me. The deer they shoot still run about as far as they do when I shoot one with a 7mm-08 or 25-06. The bang flop kills they thought they were going to get with their new rocket launcher just don't consistently happen. A fact that sadly prompts some of them to buy even larger magnums in a vain attempt to get that consistent bang flop kill.

Virtually every one of the12 or so magnum guys I know and speak to on a regular basis can quote you the ballisticcharts of their particular mag caliber from memory. Bullet drop at 300 yards, retained foot pounds of energy at 400 yards, etc, etc. Yet not a single one of them has, to the best of my knowledge, ever killed anything farther away than 150 yards. In fact I have had the opportunity from time to time to shootwith many of them at the large gravel pit on mygrandfathers land. You canshoot out to 350 yards in it andshooting there with themwould have been funny if it also wasn'tso sad. Most of themcould barely keepthree shots in aspace the size of asheet of loose leaf notebook paper at 100 yards. Most couldn't put one in three shots in a space the size of a deers vitals at 200 yards. And 300 yards? Forget it,the targetmight as well have been a mile away for all the chance they had of hitting it. Why? All you had to do was stand behind them as they shot to see. All of them had a flinch and some were literally jerking their head out from behind the scope as they pulled the trigger. All of them would have been far better off with aless powerfulcartridge that they could have shot more accurately. In fact most when handed my 7mm-08could ,after a few warm up shots to realize that it was no threat to gouge their eye out,shoot it much better than their own rifle. You would think that a light bulb would have gone off in their heads after an experience like that but logic can find no toe hold in a mind afflicted with magnumitis. Nope, they can't be seen in camp with a little girlie cartridge like a 7mm-08. They got to have a manly mans gun like a 300 ultra mag even if it means they can't keep three shots on a barn door with it.

(MNTBHWT) = many need to be honest with themselves

1. If you have any recoil induced flinch you probably shouldn't be using a magnum caliber. (MNTBHWT)

2. If you find yourselfpracticing less or not at all because an evening at the range with Big Bertha has become a decidely unpleasent experience then you probably shouldn't be using a magnum caliber.

3. If the land that you hunt doesn't realistically present the opportunity for 400 yards shots then you probably shouldn't be using a magnum caliber.

4. If you aren't capable of consistently making a 400 yard shot with a large magnum caliberthen you probably shouldn't be using a magnum caliber. (MNTBHWT)

5. If the game you are hunting weighs less than 250 lbs and you don't live in Grizzley or Brown bear country then you probably shouldn't be using a magnum caliber.

RedAllison

Todd you paint ALOT of people with a very broad brush. So it's your opinion that unless I live in grizz country, my Warbird is un-necessary. Well I happen to think that your comments about there being very few places in AL to shoot deer a long way off is blatantly wrong. The art of "shooting house" hunting originated in the southern powerlines and right of ways of AL. ALOT of guys down there use high steppers for shooting deer well past the quartermile mark, just as they do allover the south and many places west of the MS. Just because you choose to stick deep inside the brush doesn't mean that it isn't necessary for others to have a need to shoot farther. My primary rifle stand in west TN is in the middle of a large field where I have a commanding view of ALOT of real estate and off my right shoulder the farthest point is 618 yds, over my left shoulder the tree line is 613 yds. I used to hunt the same area with my 06 and 7mags and would basically just watch and wish when they walked by on either end if over 400yds. So for me the big gun is a tool that fixes a problem. (BTW, no I have not had the first problem with bloodshot meat with this gun, bone fragmentation is more a result than bruised meat!)

As for not seeing the evidence of which I speak, just take a look at many of the posts in the gun sections asked about long range calibers or upgrading or going out west for long range hunts etc... They might not start off that way, but once someone like myself recommends a longranger, the wrath of God befalls the post and the name callin and "Well in my opinions..." start flyin with wreckless abandone. As for Todds Assertion about driving bullets past their failure velocity, that's evidence of his oldschool mindset. I am not suggesting men try driving CoreLokts too 4kps, I am talking about using modern technology to reliably and CLEANLY take animals at basically any range necessary. I realize alot of guys are anti-technology, that's fine but don't redicule me (and others like me) for choosing to do so. A smidge of ability, a laser rangefinder, a quality scope and rifle and some time spent practicing and scouting will make MANY people much more capable than some would like to admit or see unfold.

Much the same wrath befell compound shooters in the late 70s and early 80s. Now they are the rule vs the exception. I suppose it just takes time!
RA

bigcountry

Exactly todd, cause they should be honest with themselfs and understand your overgunned when you enter the woods with a 30-30. Everything after that is just fun. How much accuracy do you need to kill deer at 30, 50, or 80 yards.

Todd1700

Here is an interesting post from a guy by the handle of Muledeer over at the 24 hour Campfire forums. Many who visit that site will know him and his level of experience and expertise when it comes to hunting and shooting. It's a comparison of the 308 and the 300 win mag.


Was just down at the first annual Charlie Sisk Rifle Shoot in Texas, and was in charge of an experiment comparing the .308 Win. to the .300 Win. Magnum at 400 yards. Charlie provided two rifles identical in every way--Model 70 action, barrel, McMillan stock, scope (a 4-12x Kahles)--except chambering. One was a .308 and the other a .300. Ammo was Hornady factory with 165 Interlocks.
The experiment was simple: I zeroed each rifle 2" high at 100 yards, then shot them at 400 measured yards to how much each bullet was affected by drop, wind, etc. The wind was gusting up to 15 mph and I did not attempt to compensate at 400 yards, firing a 3-shot group with each rifle over a forend rest (not a full benchrest setup with rear bag) simulating field conditions. I called one shot in each group out about 2", otherwise all looked good.
We could not tell which shots had been called out. Groups were almost identical at 8-9 inches, strung mostly horizontally due to the wind. The .308's bullets dropped about 7" more, and drifted maybe 2 more inches in the wind. But every shot from both rifles would have landed in the lung area of a big mule deer at 400 yards, if the shooter had held the correct amount high--no matter which rifle was fired.
The entire group from both rifles measured a little over one foot, with most in under 8" inches. In fact, if we hadn't known which rifle fired which bullet, it looked very much like one group.
Admittedly, "tuned" handloads, a better rest, and a very calm day would have resulted in smaller groups. But smaller groups would have resulted in even less difference in trajectory from the highest and lowest shots. Which group came from which rifle would have been more obvious--but any of the shots would still have killed a mule deer with the same hold.

I'll just make one more note. I have used various .30 caliber cartridges over the years, from the .30-30 and .300 Savage up to the .300 RUM. In general even the .308 and certainly the .30-06 have done fine on big game out to 450 yards, which is as far as I have personally ever shot at anything larger than a coyote.
There may be some advantage in the bigger .30's in penetration with heavier bullets. But every animal I've ever shot with cartridges such as the .308 or .30-06 has gotten a hole right through all the vital parts. The bullet was either found under the hide on the far side, or went all the way through. On the longer shots with these "smaller" cartridges the bullet has always been a 165 or 180. Since all the animals were hit right, none went over 30-40 yards after the hit. Some went straight down.
Therefore, it has been hard for me to grasp how using a .300 magnum on the same shots would have resulted in deader animals.
Not that I am giving up my .300 magnums. I own three at the moment, an H&H, Winchester and WSM--and I plan to hunt elk in Colorado this fall with a .300 Weatherby, a cartridge I already have some acquaintance with.
I just fail to see the vast gap in performance that some claim between the "ordinary" .30's and the the bigger ones. In reality it appears to be a "cline," a graded shift rather than a firm division in performance. But then again I quit believing in foot-pounds as a real indicator of "killing power" many years ago, after having shot quite a few animals and mostly discovering that if their pumphouse got punctured, it didn't matter much whether the puncturing was done with a .270 or a .338.
I also quit believing that we somehow "need" a minimum of 200 grains of bullet to kill anything bigger than a caribou. This is because too many animals died from the correct application of lighter bullets. The big factors appeared to be correct bullet placement and penetration, not exactly how much the bullet weighed, or its diameter, or exactly what percentage of weight it retained.
But, as always, that's just one person's opinion around the Campfire

bigcountry

Yea, but anybody that has ever followed his writing for a long time knows he is very anti magnum. Well not anti magnum but anti anything new. Its his way, and his little niche.

Its more important to John, that we use traditional cartidges than anything with the same ballistics just for the name.

RedAllison

Todd, I don't recommend large mags for deer because of a desire to increase the bullets energy. It's simply all about velocity. And to get it there quicker and flatter it has to be started out faster which DOES result in more recoil, noise and expense. I agree too that for the most par there isn't enough difference (trajectory wise) between a 30/06 shooting 150grns vs a 300WinMag shooting 180grns to merit switching one for the other with concerns too deer (yeah I would MUCH rather have the later with something larger than a caribou is the target). I am talking about taking the same bullet from that 06 and increasing its velocity by 500-nearly 1k more fps and THEN you see quite a difference in trajectory. In my mind (and my own personal experience) it is MUCH easier to hit (with great accuracy I might add) at 400yds when the bullet is only going to drop about 3" vs a foot and a half in the 06. I know it because I do it with regularity and I have done it with both.

As for the comparison you gave, I would like to see the test had he used a true supermag vs that 308. A faster bullet does two things, not only does it drop less but it also drifts less in the wind because it is in flight for a shorter time so the wind has less time to grab that bullet.

Now what does all this have to do with my original post?
RA

Todd1700

Did you skip over the part where I said, "There are always exceptions to everything. If these comments don't describe you or your hunting situationthen that's great. You have no reason to be pissed at me." If you hunt where you can see 600 yards in every direction and can pick lint off a gnats ass at those distances withyour warbird thenthat's great. But for the vast, vastmajority ofpeople a 270,308 or30-06 will kill well beyond the range that they have any business attempting a shot anyway.

Out west it may be a different story but if you are having to consistently take shots over 300 yards in Alabama then you need to move your stand to a better location cause you are definately set up in the wrong spot.

No that's evidence of the fact that the locals are shooting cor-lokts, power points Hornady SST's, and ballistic tips into deer at 3000 plus fps and ending up withbullets that occasionally blow up on shoulders and deer that look like they were hit by a car when you pull the hide off of them.

PKnTX

Seems the orignal post was more to do with problems
with opinions than magnums.
Here are my (dis)qualifications:
number of rifles- 2 (.22 lr & 30-30win)
(more shotguns, but thats a different topic I suppose).
Having never been on an elk, bear, moose, caribou,
buffalo or bison hunt I figurethis is about all I needFOR NOW.

I've been reading pretty much every thread bar bow/arrow
for several months now and it seems to me the extreme opinions
go both ways. Large caliber folks calling medium/small caliber
folks "pansies, girlie men, weak" ect. and medium/small caliber
folks refering to large caliber folks as having "magnumitis", or
accusing them of trying to compensate for bad shooting or
uh, lets just say "smallness in other areas". So I guess it seems
to me a little thin skinned to be calling foul or pouting because
someone else may be as opinionated as yourself. If you get
your feelings hurt by someones disagreement with what you
think, the World Wide Web is not the place to display it. I've
gotten alot of entertainment from clashing of ideas and arguments
and so would hate to see them stop for the pitiful excuse of
everyone "trying to get along".
Now, come out from your corners andstart swinging.

PKnTX

haugenna

STAT JUNK

STAT are you crazy???? Lets see, just checking the phone book for a place that advertises great deer steaks. Hmmm....can't find a one. I will put up a porterhouse on the grill against deer anyway you prepare it.