Dwell Time
06-04-2005, 08:19 PM
#1
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location:
Posts: 1,290
Dwell Time
Well, don't know if any of you want to tackle this, but it is the off season. I read about an English ballistics gent that had a theory about dwell time, wherein the lead bullet at certain velocities may be more effective going through tissue at slower, as opposed to faster, speeds. This sets aside the idea of hydrostatic shock, as I recall.
A case in point was when the British first used the 38 Webley revolver and the bullet was too light compared to the 455. They then theorized that by going to 200 grain bullets, the effect would be about the same with the 38. In actual combat at the expense of the Germans, this was found to be true. Not such a popular topic, given our move in the USA to high velocity. Indeed, other than some empirical things like this, a hard idea to prove.
Any thoughts?
A case in point was when the British first used the 38 Webley revolver and the bullet was too light compared to the 455. They then theorized that by going to 200 grain bullets, the effect would be about the same with the 38. In actual combat at the expense of the Germans, this was found to be true. Not such a popular topic, given our move in the USA to high velocity. Indeed, other than some empirical things like this, a hard idea to prove.
Any thoughts?
06-04-2005, 08:53 PM
#2
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,695
RE: Dwell Time
Just another theory. The medical fact is, the faster you can elminate blood pressure the faster the brain will shut down. this is why lung shots are better than heart shots. Lung shots, the heart keeps beating and the lung keeps leaking. A heart shot the heart stops beating so blood loss ( blood pressure) isnt as rapid so the brains stays functioning a little longer. Well thats what I read once. Or you can take it to the brain and eliminate this whole process intsantly.
06-04-2005, 09:15 PM
#3
Join Date: May 2004
Location: SW Virginia
Posts: 776
RE: Dwell Time
BJ,
I've heard of the same theory. Can't recall where I came across it, it was some years ago. I suspect there may be something to it. I mean, one of the objects, whether with
handgun or rifle, is to have the bullet expend all or most of its' energy IN the target.
While it's in the target it's dumping energy so, even if it passes thru/exits, the longer it takes to do so the more energy is dumped in the target.
Looking at shooting reports, stopping power reports/calculations, etc. it's hard to dismiss the old, heavy, relatively slow moving slugs such as 44Spec., 45Colt, and the 45ACP.
They don't rely on expansion like the smaller, higher velocity slugs from the 9mm, or
357mag. That said however, the newer ammo for the smaller calibers seems to be pretty reliable for expansion - something that wasn't always the case years ago.
I've got a 9mm, and a 357mag., but my favorite is the 45Colt. Pleasant to shoot, and I feel comfortable relying on that big slug to do the job.
Heck, look at the Moros in the Phillipines. The Army went to the 38, and their troops were getting hacked up by those guys with the machetes. A switch back to 45Colt guns put a stop to that sort of thing.
I've said it before, but would you rather be hit with a baseball going 90mph, or a bowling ball doing 50mph.? That baseball is gonna' hurt for sure, but the big one's gonna' knock ya' on your caboose!
I've heard of the same theory. Can't recall where I came across it, it was some years ago. I suspect there may be something to it. I mean, one of the objects, whether with
handgun or rifle, is to have the bullet expend all or most of its' energy IN the target.
While it's in the target it's dumping energy so, even if it passes thru/exits, the longer it takes to do so the more energy is dumped in the target.
Looking at shooting reports, stopping power reports/calculations, etc. it's hard to dismiss the old, heavy, relatively slow moving slugs such as 44Spec., 45Colt, and the 45ACP.
They don't rely on expansion like the smaller, higher velocity slugs from the 9mm, or
357mag. That said however, the newer ammo for the smaller calibers seems to be pretty reliable for expansion - something that wasn't always the case years ago.
I've got a 9mm, and a 357mag., but my favorite is the 45Colt. Pleasant to shoot, and I feel comfortable relying on that big slug to do the job.
Heck, look at the Moros in the Phillipines. The Army went to the 38, and their troops were getting hacked up by those guys with the machetes. A switch back to 45Colt guns put a stop to that sort of thing.
I've said it before, but would you rather be hit with a baseball going 90mph, or a bowling ball doing 50mph.? That baseball is gonna' hurt for sure, but the big one's gonna' knock ya' on your caboose!
06-04-2005, 09:56 PM
#4
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,679
RE: Dwell Time
Here's a simple test you can do anywhere you can shoot a rifle.
Get two watermellons. Shoot one with a 350 grain hard cast bullet from a 45-70. Shoot the other with a 180 grain soft point from a 300 magnum.
Watch to see what happens.
Assuming that you are useing a bullet properly constructed to get THROUGH the vitals of your intended target, no matter if it stops under the skin or exits, the bullet that transferes its energy the quickest will create more trauma inside the animals body. The slower a bullet travels through a body the less trauma it creates around the actual bullet hole.
Getting hit by a baseball and a blowling ball can not be considered because they do not go through a persons body like a bullet does.
Not true. A bullet only has a specific ammount of energy to transfer to the animals body. The longer it takes a bullet to transfer its energy into the body the more gently it does it and the less trauma it creates. It mearly punches a straight hole all the way through instead of creating a huge shockwave inside a body.
We've all seen pics of ballistics gel after being shot by different bullets. The faster moving bullets always produce larger wound channels.
Get two watermellons. Shoot one with a 350 grain hard cast bullet from a 45-70. Shoot the other with a 180 grain soft point from a 300 magnum.
Watch to see what happens.
Assuming that you are useing a bullet properly constructed to get THROUGH the vitals of your intended target, no matter if it stops under the skin or exits, the bullet that transferes its energy the quickest will create more trauma inside the animals body. The slower a bullet travels through a body the less trauma it creates around the actual bullet hole.
Getting hit by a baseball and a blowling ball can not be considered because they do not go through a persons body like a bullet does.
While it's in the target it's dumping energy so, even if it passes thru/exits, the longer it takes to do so the more energy is dumped in the target.
We've all seen pics of ballistics gel after being shot by different bullets. The faster moving bullets always produce larger wound channels.
06-04-2005, 10:05 PM
#5
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: S Texas
Posts: 1,037
RE: Dwell Time
In actual combat at the expense of the Germans, this was found to be true.
06-04-2005, 10:58 PM
#6
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,695
RE: Dwell Time
ORIGINAL: bigbulls
We've all seen pics of ballistics gel after being shot by different bullets. The faster moving bullets always produce larger wound channels.
We've all seen pics of ballistics gel after being shot by different bullets. The faster moving bullets always produce larger wound channels.
06-05-2005, 08:44 AM
#10
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wall SD USA & Jamestown ND
Posts: 11,474
RE: Dwell Time
This is just for information for those who really want information and I don't intend to debate the subject. There is good reason for the 50 year debate(In my case) about velocity VS Bullet size. The old slow vs fast debate. There are other things to consider that make just as much difference. What has been said above about the speed of bullets is true as far as it goes. The other side of the debate for which there is just as much evidence comes from the study of bullet Meplat. Width of the bullet nose. Wide Meplat bullet create permanent wound channel. What velocity does with a fast light bullet can also be done with a wide nose bullet that creates shock wave ahead of the bullet. The wider the bullet nose, the wider the wound channel. Velocity will also increase the size of the wound channel but not as much as increasing the width of the bullet nose. Thats why frontal area of a bullet must be considered as well as other things.
We all know that a 300 Win Mag and a 45-70 will both kill lets say a moose. How they perform this may differ but the moose is just as dead. I have been a student of this stuff for 50 years and I could put up a good debate with plenty of evidece to back up either side of the debate. The info and proof is there to be found and for me the debate and study has gone into high velocity rounds VS Cast bullet with wide Meplat driven to lower velocity because of there massive weight.
There is a lot of talk these days about velocity but long before the high velocity rounds of today, a good percentage of the earths critters like the buffalo were nearly wiped off the face of the earth with 500 grain bullets at 1300-1400 fps. This is just as true of most of the African game taken out with 4, 6, and eight Ga muzzle loader and Cordite rounds. Like I said this is information for those who want it or want to study it further.
We all know that a 300 Win Mag and a 45-70 will both kill lets say a moose. How they perform this may differ but the moose is just as dead. I have been a student of this stuff for 50 years and I could put up a good debate with plenty of evidece to back up either side of the debate. The info and proof is there to be found and for me the debate and study has gone into high velocity rounds VS Cast bullet with wide Meplat driven to lower velocity because of there massive weight.
There is a lot of talk these days about velocity but long before the high velocity rounds of today, a good percentage of the earths critters like the buffalo were nearly wiped off the face of the earth with 500 grain bullets at 1300-1400 fps. This is just as true of most of the African game taken out with 4, 6, and eight Ga muzzle loader and Cordite rounds. Like I said this is information for those who want it or want to study it further.