Gun Safes
03-07-2007, 03:28 PM
#21
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Tri Cities, Washington
Posts: 1,616
RE: Gun Safes
ORIGINAL: retrieverman
I am curious about the basis for this statement. I looked at alot of safes before I bought my Heritage, and I didn't see anything wrong with Ft Knox safes. I almost bought one, but I found a deal on a Heritage "demo".
ORIGINAL: cascadedad
In my opinion, much about the Fort Knox safes is nothing more than marketing.
In my opinion, much about the Fort Knox safes is nothing more than marketing.
I did quite a bit of looking at safes and"some" researchwhen I was in the market several years ago. I don't doubt that the Ft. Knox is a good safe.
But, in my mind, Rack and Pinion is more of a marketing issue than it is a real benefit over other designs. 20-28locking bolts is not necessary. Again, it just makes sense to me looking at them that 12-14 or some number far less than 20 is necessary. More means more cost. That's ok if it is actually providing more safety, but it is a waste if it is just to "look good".
Look at the front page of the Ft. Knox website. It shows the insides of the door. Is 28 locking bolts really necessary? Are the corner locking bolts really necessary, or are they there to impress the buyer?
Again, this is the way I have felt about it. I could be ALL WRONG.
A couple questions for Rebel Hog, it is obvious you are an expert on the subject and I am always happy to learn.
1) Does the Ft. Knox safe (entire safe, not just parts) have a UL listing? It is my understanding that for a safe to have a UL listing, all the locking mechanism has to be the same from safe to safe. Thus a person wanting to break into a safe would have a blueprint of the internals of the safe and know where to attack. Some sort of randomizing would be better.
2) Regarding fire protection. Isn't fire protection and heat protection two different things? Sheet rock is used in many safes (don't know offhand what Ft. Knox uses). Sheet rock is good at keeping the fire away from the contents, but does very little to control the heat. The heat alone from the fire is enough to destroy the contents even if the fire never reaches it. It is my understanding that the protection needs to contain moisture to be an effective heat barrier. Water has a high heat index, meaning it takes a lot of heat to raise the temperature of water.
I am not wanting to start an arguement. Just trying to see if my logic is all messed up.
Any thoughts greatly appreciated.
03-07-2007, 08:38 PM
#23
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Tri Cities, Washington
Posts: 1,616
RE: Gun Safes
Well, what I said and the fancy, frilly web site with all the big names on there. You know, I like Bo Derek just as much as the next guy, but..............
Anyway, I am hoping Rebel Hog will chime in and set me straight.
Anyway, I am hoping Rebel Hog will chime in and set me straight.
03-07-2007, 10:09 PM
#24
Dominant Buck
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: WC FL
Posts: 26,323
RE: Gun Safes
ORIGINAL: cascaded
A couple questions for Rebel Hog, it is obvious you are an expert on the subject and I am always happy to learn.
According to the UL Laboratories they do.......IMO they do have tool attackweak spots.
Well, as long as the locks are UL rated, it could be Sargent & Greenleaf, La Gard, Diebold or Mosler and have at least3 tumbler's.
Well, there aresafe plant employees that give that information out or sell it to safe burglars. But not just anyone. The ones who buy this information have all the tools to do any safe.
When and if you ever needa safe man to do work on yours, don't call one over the phone, go to their place of business and see if he hasphoto ID and make sure he is Bonded and has active license. This is another chance you take when having your safe worked on! As long asthey or hehave been established in your town for years and is not a Gypsy safe man, No Worry!
Yes, it's explains it in the Spec's I posted....1850* external, 350* internal.
No, they don't useSheet Rock in safes. It'spoured in the walls of the safe (can't remember the name).
According to the Fire rating of Exterior Temperature and for how long it can take it? That's a choice of the buyer......After those ratings, yes it will burn the interior.
Yes notice the Ratings I posted.....1850*/350* and that is for the specified length of time they give you for those spec's.
Water has a high heat index, meaning it takes a lot of heat to raise the temperature of water.
212* at sea level to boil
Any thoughts greatly appreciated.
A couple questions for Rebel Hog, it is obvious you are an expert on the subject and I am always happy to learn.
1) Does the Ft. Knox safe (entire safe, not just parts) have a UL listing?
It is my understanding that for a safe to have a UL listing, all the locking mechanism has to be the same from safe to safe.
Thus a person wanting to break into a safe would have a blueprint of the internals of the safe and know where to attack.
When and if you ever needa safe man to do work on yours, don't call one over the phone, go to their place of business and see if he hasphoto ID and make sure he is Bonded and has active license. This is another chance you take when having your safe worked on! As long asthey or hehave been established in your town for years and is not a Gypsy safe man, No Worry!
2) Regarding fire protection. Isn't fire protection and heat protection two different things?
Sheet rock is used in many safes (don't know offhand what Ft. Knox uses).
No, they don't useSheet Rock in safes. It'spoured in the walls of the safe (can't remember the name).
The heat alone from the fire is enough to destroy the contents even if the fire never reaches it.
It is my understanding that the protection needs to contain moisture to be an effective heat barrier.
Water has a high heat index, meaning it takes a lot of heat to raise the temperature of water.
212* at sea level to boil
Any thoughts greatly appreciated.
03-09-2007, 06:02 PM
#25
Join Date: May 2006
Location:
Posts: 317
RE: Gun Safes
Themost important thing to remember is they are not GUN safes, they areHOME safes. At least that's what you tell the IRS when you're filing your taxes. I've heard a safe can be a deduction on your taxes if you store your tax documents in it along with your guns. I'm also looking to buy a safe. I have worried about fire ratings and how quickly someone could break into it. But I finally realized right now I don't have a safe at all and anything is better than storing my guns in plastic gun cases. I'm going to try to get one for around $400. I figure if I put my fire resistant box inside it with all my important documents thay will be good enough for me.
03-15-2007, 08:08 PM
#26
Fork Horn
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 161
RE: Gun Safes
I'm driving down the road one day and I spot sticking up from a pile of junk a diamond shining like the holy grail, after what seemed like an eternity of slow motion still eye contact and my wife course puching me to get back on the road I realize I must own this. She on the other hand only sees what every nonproject rational mind sees. Which by now is only classified by her eyes as "junk". I like to think of these items as a rebirth. Later that week while the vechicle occuponcy is less than that of the operator I stopped and talked to the owner of the pile of "junk". I picked the so called "junk" up which by now is called a safe for a mere $40. It was a very early model Heritage gun safe, small but just right for my little home and project for the winter. The door was badly dragging and the lock was dismantled and broken to bits inside. There was absolutely no interior and it was starting to suface rust for it had been outside for about 2yrs. The work began by trying to locate a S&G lock, found this complete off a demo safe that the new owner upgraded to an electronic for $25. Next began the process of birth or otherwise known to the mortal mind as wasting time on that stupid safe. When sanding and painting was complete the interior was next. In my research years ago the typical insulating material was 1/2" drywall as a typical 30 min. 1200 degree fire. Me being the overkill bring a RPG to a knife fight kind of guy decided this obviously wasn't going to be enough. I added 1-3/4 to the ceiling and floor and 1-1/2 to the walls and 3/4 to the door of drywall and sealing all cracks with silver furnace tape. I then added carpet and I made custom gun racks and a shelf from cherry wood from my Grandpa's farm. The final step was pinstripe and scrolls from ebay for $6 and a new fire seal fot the door.After all said and done with I had about $200 in it. I don't know what the fire rating would be on this unit but I'd put it up against some of the best.The extra drywall added weight like you wouldn't believe. After bringing home the new addition to the family the wife was quite suprised at how it turned out.
Before the rebirth
After
Before the rebirth
After
03-17-2007, 06:19 PM
#28
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 126
RE: Gun Safes
What should I do?
Cabelas in Richfield, WI has a sale today and tomorrow on their "Cabelas" series safes, which are made by Liberty. $100 off by Cabelas and another $100 off in mail-in rebate from Liberty (double each offer if the safe is over $2000). I am looking at the Bronze series (which is similar to the Franklin series on the Liberty website). The 60.5 X 36X 27.5" safe with 34 Long Gun capacityis priced at$1599, so$1399 would be the price(before tax) after instant and mail-in rebate. Compare that to a similar size Browning at $1799fromScheels SportingGoods andIam thinking it may be too goodof a deal to pass up (especially since I have a $200 gift card to Cabelas). But I just don't havevery much time to think about it. I really like the gun rack (duoplus) on the Browning and the 180 degree doorswing, but notenough to pay$400 more.
The 840lb safe has a 60 min fire rating at 1200 degrees with 12 gauge steel and 4 layers of 5/8" fireboard in ceiling and 3 layers on the walls and door. They don't have one in stock with manual lock, so I would have to wait for one to ship to the store.
I am going to call another store tomorrow that carries Browning and check their prices and then I will have to make a quick decision to wait for the next sale or make a road trip to Cabelas.
What do you think?
Cabelas in Richfield, WI has a sale today and tomorrow on their "Cabelas" series safes, which are made by Liberty. $100 off by Cabelas and another $100 off in mail-in rebate from Liberty (double each offer if the safe is over $2000). I am looking at the Bronze series (which is similar to the Franklin series on the Liberty website). The 60.5 X 36X 27.5" safe with 34 Long Gun capacityis priced at$1599, so$1399 would be the price(before tax) after instant and mail-in rebate. Compare that to a similar size Browning at $1799fromScheels SportingGoods andIam thinking it may be too goodof a deal to pass up (especially since I have a $200 gift card to Cabelas). But I just don't havevery much time to think about it. I really like the gun rack (duoplus) on the Browning and the 180 degree doorswing, but notenough to pay$400 more.
The 840lb safe has a 60 min fire rating at 1200 degrees with 12 gauge steel and 4 layers of 5/8" fireboard in ceiling and 3 layers on the walls and door. They don't have one in stock with manual lock, so I would have to wait for one to ship to the store.
I am going to call another store tomorrow that carries Browning and check their prices and then I will have to make a quick decision to wait for the next sale or make a road trip to Cabelas.
What do you think?
03-17-2007, 08:43 PM
#29
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: S.W. Pa.-- Heart in North Central Pa. mountains-
Posts: 2,600
RE: Gun Safes
Contrary to what some would have you believe, "size matters". Along with fire ratings and locking systems being very important, make sure when you do purchase one, that it is way bigger than you think you will ever need. It is simply amazing how quick they fill up. Amazing!
03-18-2007, 03:30 PM
#30
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 126
RE: Gun Safes
Well, I still have $ sitting in my shoe box size safe with my guns on a wood gun rack... after further review and sleeping on my initial decision of getting the Liberty "Cabelas" brand safe I decided to wait. I called a few other stores and found that the first quoted price for the Browning was very high, so I wouldn't be saving as much as I thought to go without the gun rack on the door and 180 degree door swing hinge.
Has anyone looked into anafter market gun rack for thesafe door? Browning must design their interior to allowroom for the guns on the door when the door is closed, soI would assume that even if you made your own door gun rack you wouldhave to also modifiy the interior shelving of the safe.
Has anyone looked into anafter market gun rack for thesafe door? Browning must design their interior to allowroom for the guns on the door when the door is closed, soI would assume that even if you made your own door gun rack you wouldhave to also modifiy the interior shelving of the safe.
