ATA Show Review
01-11-2009, 06:14 PM
#1
Fork Horn
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location:
Posts: 478
ATA Show Review
Hi All:
OK, now that I am back, got some sleep and a lot more coffee I can take a look at what I saw at the show and throw out some observations. Normally I do these everyday at the show but my wife had to keep the laptop so I was sans-technology for the week.
Anyway, you will note no photos. Two reasons: First, I forgot my camera. Second, Mirko was there with his camera that probably cost more than my house and dimmed the lights in the building every time he clicked the shutter so I will rely on him to post photos later
Before I get into the meat and potatoes I want to note that I bumped into Revival, and Jeff from Crossbow Connection at the show. Both of them were a "Hi, how ya doing, gotta run I have a meeting to go to, did you check this out yet? Have fun, gotta go!" Mirko, poor guy, got stuck with me a couple of times and had to deal with me yapping at a hundred miles an hour and literally dragging him from booth to booth, or person to person we needed to talk to. I am sure "crazy American" crossed his mind more than once
Moonkryket on the other hand appeared behind my shoulder suddenly like 4 times, popping up like the Great Gazoo on the Flintstones. Anyway, I will try to break this down by manufacturer...
TenPoint: This gets interesting...I shot the defender about 2 hours after I got to the show. Overall it is slightly heavier than a Pro-Slider, but more nose heavy due to the large riser on the CLS. It balances well, but not as well IMO as the ProSlider. It is faster (noticeably) and has less shock than the Proslider, but I was extremely disappointed in how loud it was...it was like a shotgun going off! I expressed this to Randy who seemed a bit confused by my impression and touted that it was not built especially to be quiet so much as narrow and stable. The other issue is that the thickness of the riser is very critical and the one there was too thin so it dragged the front part of the rail down so the front of the arrow did not touch the rail at all. This is being addressed by TenPoint so the production ones should be fine. That "gap" did add to the noise some so it will be a bit quieter when the production ones come out. So the next day I drag (literally) Mirko over to try that bow and let me get a DB reading on it. He shoulders the bow, lets loose the arrow and its quiet!! What the heck?? Turns out the one I shot the day before had a loose scope mount. I was SO relieved!!! I had serious reservations on this bow the way it was when I shot it the day before. OH, it clocked in at about 90dbs (pretty average for a compound crossbow). The new GT Mag is IMO too much bow on too light a frame. It slaps pretty hard (I seriously wish manufacturers would install STS systems on these bows!!) and DB wise it is not much louder than a compound, but the pitch is very high so it “sounds” loud. It also thrums like a tuning fork after the shot. The Curve is IMO a much better shooter as the additional mass absorbs all that. If an STS were installed on the GT Mag it would be a great bow, but I found it had too much hand shock for me. The Phantom got a bunch of machine work on the riser to lighten it a bit. You have to have an older one side by side to really see it, but they did a nice job on cleaning up and removing material without sacrificing strength. The New Titan is basiclly a Profusion with new colors but I like the new camo alot and it is a nice improvement on the TL7
Parker: Well, the Cyclone Extreme is pretty much the same as the 08 Cyclone except for the change in the footmans loop (patent issue) and the change on the rear stock that puts a rope cocking groove lower down on the stock that will eliminate rollover finally. Other than that, no real change. Their Red Hot accessories have some nice points. They have a scope that is made by Hawke (so the quality is very good) that is basically a single crosshair with small dots on the lover vertical crosshair. I find the dots one step from useless, but for those customers wanting a crossbow capable single crosshair scope this is going to actually be a nice option. Their Red Hot strings are actually made by First String (we picked them up direct this year). This pretty well will eliminate some of the string issues they had with the Cyclones last year as they were made by another company and First String is top notch. Their new arrows are made by Carbon Express. Very nice components and a very high quality shaft but I find it too stiff and loud by comparison to others and the $79.95 for 6 price tag may be abit hard to swallow. Their new recurves will probably be a decent option once they do some more work on them. They are decently fast, average noise (again, STS!!!) and with the mass of their stocks very stable, but the triggers are designed for their compounds and went from a decent 4lb trigger to a 6-7lb one. You can feel it struggling to overcome the friction on the sear. They are going to work on the trigger and I was told the recurves will not be out for a bit…if they cure that they will a good option on that style of bow. It is the same stock as the compounds so the potential for swapping may be there also. The Spartan is basically a doe brown Buck Buster and feels and shoots just like it. It is much better looking in real life than in the photos, but it uses a kinda weird single red dot that I did not like so I will only be offering it with the scope. Quality and performance is good for a $400ish bow. OK, now onto the Tornado…I have to state right off that it is compact, narrow, shoulders very well, is fast, quiet, and very stable. I REALLY like this bow…but the trigger is needing some work..It is their first attempt at a bullpup and the trigger is not far enough forward (unless you have really short fingers) so you end up "pushing" the trigger rather than "squeezing" it and the pivot point of the rod is too close to the pivot of the trigger so there is some creep and it is abit harder than it could be. It is not horrible, but I discussed what I found with them and what the solution could be. I doubt it will happen anytime soon though so this year is pretty much set with this bow with this trigger. If not for that this would have been one of my favorite bows there. IMO, it is better than the Cyclone is many respects. It is less agressive and much easier to cock and not as long overall...just that trigger
Some people may like it, but be aware...that will be a sticking point for some buyers. Lastly, (and this is not going to affect me or my customers as much as it will those that shop at less "creative" dealers than me) Every bow coming out of Parker since the first is subject to MAP pricing which means the retail is going up and they are not including rope aid or arrows anymore. I feel this is an extreamly stupid move, but I personaly can work arround it and still give these at good value to my customers, but if you buy them from any other dealer be aware that you cannot go home and shoot your bow without spending a few more bucks to get the rest of the accessories you need....
Styker: Actually met and talked with the man who's job it was to re-design the DS into the SF. Super guy and an enthusiast as well as an engineer. He basicly did what I had observed with this bow when I got it in: re-designed the trigger with a 4-4.5lb pull (YES!!) added the snubbers which after 3000+ cycles they noticed a three times increase in serving life and the limbs have more features than I care to list, but lets just say I dont think I will get anyone calling me with a limb problem anymore. I went over a few other ideas since there may be another crossbow in the future for them and Bowtec seems open to suggestion and they are actually starting to listen. The StrykeForce is cool, no two ways arround it.
Horton: The Vision is everything the Recon is not. It is light, well balanced, extreamly quiet, very compact, well built and fast enough with a hunting weight arrow to satisfy most hunters (about 300fps w/ 425gr) and at $799 retail for a complete package is much more bow for your money than you would think. The scope is kinda crappy and the saftey is loud but I talked to Horton about it and they were very responsive and we all see where it could be made next to silent so they are aware of it and are going to work on it. This was one of the standouts at the show for me and I am going to be carrying them...
Excalibur: Thumb holes for the Phoenix finally ( called the Ibex)and a shorter version of the Vixen with camo finally as well. Their bows are now available with a "lite stuff" package that gives you a varizone, mounts, rope, quiver and 4 carbon arrows. The 225lb models are now coming fully camoed! They look great, but they are their slowest selling bows and I wish they did the camo to the whole line. Unfortunatly it was the first bow I saw and I was very disapointed to see that it was not on the rest of the line...maybe next year. They also have stock extensions and a raised cheek piece. The cheek piece has been needed for a while, but the downside of the extensions is they screw inplace and will not work with the crank. That is gonna stink. Still no fix on their free for all pricing so we all can expect that "mystery dealers" will continue to devalue this line for all legitimate dealers into 09 as well...
Barnett: The did improve the triggers and they are offering black and a very cool carbon on some models. I ended up having a very nice conversation with the owner about their warranty (my one big hang up!) Without getting into detail I understand why they did the one year thing and they understand why I will not sell the product till they change it. There is change in the works but it involves some baggage they need to shed before it can be fully implemented. They did reasure me that they will take care of their customers till things can get straightend out and I have no reason not to believe they will be more than workable with owners of their bows. I will be watching them to see where they go with this and I will take another look at the line at a later date. On a side note, Mirko HAD to get a photo of me shooting a Barnett just to prove I did it
RDT: I did not get a chance to even shoot one as when I went over there they had some issue with the dryfire hangin up on one or something and I could not stick arround. The new version is less bulky and seems more "finished" than last years, but it is still wider than the Horton using the same principal. Cant say much more about it since I had to pass it up...sorry
PSE: Well, the one person I thought would be interested in this flat out was disgusted by it so there goes my one possible sale on it. I have friends who shoot tactical AR15's and they are not going to want this. They told me that there are "X" number of AR15 owners in the US and that is what they are using for a potential customer base for this product. I just dont see the desire to own this from these people. They are used to shooting 500yrds and this is actually a downgrade from what they bought the gun for. I know of one manufacturer that was fuming that they brought this out and potentialy set back crossbow inclusion 10years. There may be some interest here and there and I am sure they will sell some but I for one would like to know who the dealer is that ordered 75 of them is. Basicly it is big, heavy, awkward not very much faster than a Stryker and blutnly honest, shoots like a crossbow. It is not dead silent, blindingly fast, zero recoil, or anything else to make it stand out from several other high end bows except the fact that it looks like they pulled it from the top of a Humvee. My overall opinion is that it is useless as anything other than a novelty and for the same money you can buy a big pile of Viagra and not only achieve the same thing but have more fun spending an hour or so on the "range" with the Viagra.
Wyvern [/align]
OK, now that I am back, got some sleep and a lot more coffee I can take a look at what I saw at the show and throw out some observations. Normally I do these everyday at the show but my wife had to keep the laptop so I was sans-technology for the week.
Anyway, you will note no photos. Two reasons: First, I forgot my camera. Second, Mirko was there with his camera that probably cost more than my house and dimmed the lights in the building every time he clicked the shutter so I will rely on him to post photos later
Before I get into the meat and potatoes I want to note that I bumped into Revival, and Jeff from Crossbow Connection at the show. Both of them were a "Hi, how ya doing, gotta run I have a meeting to go to, did you check this out yet? Have fun, gotta go!" Mirko, poor guy, got stuck with me a couple of times and had to deal with me yapping at a hundred miles an hour and literally dragging him from booth to booth, or person to person we needed to talk to. I am sure "crazy American" crossed his mind more than once
Moonkryket on the other hand appeared behind my shoulder suddenly like 4 times, popping up like the Great Gazoo on the Flintstones. Anyway, I will try to break this down by manufacturer...TenPoint: This gets interesting...I shot the defender about 2 hours after I got to the show. Overall it is slightly heavier than a Pro-Slider, but more nose heavy due to the large riser on the CLS. It balances well, but not as well IMO as the ProSlider. It is faster (noticeably) and has less shock than the Proslider, but I was extremely disappointed in how loud it was...it was like a shotgun going off! I expressed this to Randy who seemed a bit confused by my impression and touted that it was not built especially to be quiet so much as narrow and stable. The other issue is that the thickness of the riser is very critical and the one there was too thin so it dragged the front part of the rail down so the front of the arrow did not touch the rail at all. This is being addressed by TenPoint so the production ones should be fine. That "gap" did add to the noise some so it will be a bit quieter when the production ones come out. So the next day I drag (literally) Mirko over to try that bow and let me get a DB reading on it. He shoulders the bow, lets loose the arrow and its quiet!! What the heck?? Turns out the one I shot the day before had a loose scope mount. I was SO relieved!!! I had serious reservations on this bow the way it was when I shot it the day before. OH, it clocked in at about 90dbs (pretty average for a compound crossbow). The new GT Mag is IMO too much bow on too light a frame. It slaps pretty hard (I seriously wish manufacturers would install STS systems on these bows!!) and DB wise it is not much louder than a compound, but the pitch is very high so it “sounds” loud. It also thrums like a tuning fork after the shot. The Curve is IMO a much better shooter as the additional mass absorbs all that. If an STS were installed on the GT Mag it would be a great bow, but I found it had too much hand shock for me. The Phantom got a bunch of machine work on the riser to lighten it a bit. You have to have an older one side by side to really see it, but they did a nice job on cleaning up and removing material without sacrificing strength. The New Titan is basiclly a Profusion with new colors but I like the new camo alot and it is a nice improvement on the TL7
Parker: Well, the Cyclone Extreme is pretty much the same as the 08 Cyclone except for the change in the footmans loop (patent issue) and the change on the rear stock that puts a rope cocking groove lower down on the stock that will eliminate rollover finally. Other than that, no real change. Their Red Hot accessories have some nice points. They have a scope that is made by Hawke (so the quality is very good) that is basically a single crosshair with small dots on the lover vertical crosshair. I find the dots one step from useless, but for those customers wanting a crossbow capable single crosshair scope this is going to actually be a nice option. Their Red Hot strings are actually made by First String (we picked them up direct this year). This pretty well will eliminate some of the string issues they had with the Cyclones last year as they were made by another company and First String is top notch. Their new arrows are made by Carbon Express. Very nice components and a very high quality shaft but I find it too stiff and loud by comparison to others and the $79.95 for 6 price tag may be abit hard to swallow. Their new recurves will probably be a decent option once they do some more work on them. They are decently fast, average noise (again, STS!!!) and with the mass of their stocks very stable, but the triggers are designed for their compounds and went from a decent 4lb trigger to a 6-7lb one. You can feel it struggling to overcome the friction on the sear. They are going to work on the trigger and I was told the recurves will not be out for a bit…if they cure that they will a good option on that style of bow. It is the same stock as the compounds so the potential for swapping may be there also. The Spartan is basically a doe brown Buck Buster and feels and shoots just like it. It is much better looking in real life than in the photos, but it uses a kinda weird single red dot that I did not like so I will only be offering it with the scope. Quality and performance is good for a $400ish bow. OK, now onto the Tornado…I have to state right off that it is compact, narrow, shoulders very well, is fast, quiet, and very stable. I REALLY like this bow…but the trigger is needing some work..It is their first attempt at a bullpup and the trigger is not far enough forward (unless you have really short fingers) so you end up "pushing" the trigger rather than "squeezing" it and the pivot point of the rod is too close to the pivot of the trigger so there is some creep and it is abit harder than it could be. It is not horrible, but I discussed what I found with them and what the solution could be. I doubt it will happen anytime soon though so this year is pretty much set with this bow with this trigger. If not for that this would have been one of my favorite bows there. IMO, it is better than the Cyclone is many respects. It is less agressive and much easier to cock and not as long overall...just that trigger
Some people may like it, but be aware...that will be a sticking point for some buyers. Lastly, (and this is not going to affect me or my customers as much as it will those that shop at less "creative" dealers than me) Every bow coming out of Parker since the first is subject to MAP pricing which means the retail is going up and they are not including rope aid or arrows anymore. I feel this is an extreamly stupid move, but I personaly can work arround it and still give these at good value to my customers, but if you buy them from any other dealer be aware that you cannot go home and shoot your bow without spending a few more bucks to get the rest of the accessories you need....Styker: Actually met and talked with the man who's job it was to re-design the DS into the SF. Super guy and an enthusiast as well as an engineer. He basicly did what I had observed with this bow when I got it in: re-designed the trigger with a 4-4.5lb pull (YES!!) added the snubbers which after 3000+ cycles they noticed a three times increase in serving life and the limbs have more features than I care to list, but lets just say I dont think I will get anyone calling me with a limb problem anymore
. I went over a few other ideas since there may be another crossbow in the future for them and Bowtec seems open to suggestion and they are actually starting to listen. The StrykeForce is cool, no two ways arround it.Horton: The Vision is everything the Recon is not. It is light, well balanced, extreamly quiet, very compact, well built and fast enough with a hunting weight arrow to satisfy most hunters (about 300fps w/ 425gr) and at $799 retail for a complete package is much more bow for your money than you would think. The scope is kinda crappy and the saftey is loud but I talked to Horton about it and they were very responsive and we all see where it could be made next to silent so they are aware of it and are going to work on it. This was one of the standouts at the show for me and I am going to be carrying them...
Excalibur: Thumb holes for the Phoenix finally ( called the Ibex)and a shorter version of the Vixen with camo finally as well. Their bows are now available with a "lite stuff" package that gives you a varizone, mounts, rope, quiver and 4 carbon arrows. The 225lb models are now coming fully camoed! They look great, but they are their slowest selling bows and I wish they did the camo to the whole line. Unfortunatly it was the first bow I saw and I was very disapointed to see that it was not on the rest of the line...maybe next year. They also have stock extensions and a raised cheek piece. The cheek piece has been needed for a while, but the downside of the extensions is they screw inplace and will not work with the crank. That is gonna stink. Still no fix on their free for all pricing so we all can expect that "mystery dealers" will continue to devalue this line for all legitimate dealers into 09 as well...
Barnett: The did improve the triggers and they are offering black and a very cool carbon on some models. I ended up having a very nice conversation with the owner about their warranty (my one big hang up!) Without getting into detail I understand why they did the one year thing and they understand why I will not sell the product till they change it. There is change in the works but it involves some baggage they need to shed before it can be fully implemented. They did reasure me that they will take care of their customers till things can get straightend out and I have no reason not to believe they will be more than workable with owners of their bows. I will be watching them to see where they go with this and I will take another look at the line at a later date. On a side note, Mirko HAD to get a photo of me shooting a Barnett just to prove I did it
RDT: I did not get a chance to even shoot one as when I went over there they had some issue with the dryfire hangin up on one or something and I could not stick arround. The new version is less bulky and seems more "finished" than last years, but it is still wider than the Horton using the same principal. Cant say much more about it since I had to pass it up...sorry
PSE: Well, the one person I thought would be interested in this flat out was disgusted by it so there goes my one possible sale on it. I have friends who shoot tactical AR15's and they are not going to want this. They told me that there are "X" number of AR15 owners in the US and that is what they are using for a potential customer base for this product. I just dont see the desire to own this from these people. They are used to shooting 500yrds and this is actually a downgrade from what they bought the gun for. I know of one manufacturer that was fuming that they brought this out and potentialy set back crossbow inclusion 10years. There may be some interest here and there and I am sure they will sell some but I for one would like to know who the dealer is that ordered 75 of them is. Basicly it is big, heavy, awkward not very much faster than a Stryker and blutnly honest, shoots like a crossbow. It is not dead silent, blindingly fast, zero recoil, or anything else to make it stand out from several other high end bows except the fact that it looks like they pulled it from the top of a Humvee. My overall opinion is that it is useless as anything other than a novelty and for the same money you can buy a big pile of Viagra and not only achieve the same thing but have more fun spending an hour or so on the "range" with the Viagra.
Wyvern [/align]
01-11-2009, 09:37 PM
#4
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Chesterfield County, VA
Posts: 217
RE: ATA Show Review
Thanks for your imput Dave. Since many of us can not make these shows we rely on people such as yourself willing to relayinformation and honest evaluationson the new products. I'd be interested in the new Tornado as I do like the looks of the stock and cheekpiece.
Speaking of cheekpieces, are the cheekpieces on the new Excalscoming out this yearmade into the stock or are they seperate and can they be put on older stocks as well? If they can be added to older stocks and if they are available to dealers such as yourself I'd be real interested in ordering a couple of them. That has been my only complaint with the Excal stock for some time. As far as the stock extentions go, I do not need them on my standard Excal stockbut would need them on the Vortex stock.
Thanks again,
GZ
Speaking of cheekpieces, are the cheekpieces on the new Excalscoming out this yearmade into the stock or are they seperate and can they be put on older stocks as well? If they can be added to older stocks and if they are available to dealers such as yourself I'd be real interested in ordering a couple of them. That has been my only complaint with the Excal stock for some time. As far as the stock extentions go, I do not need them on my standard Excal stockbut would need them on the Vortex stock.
Thanks again,
GZ
01-12-2009, 05:40 AM
#5
Fork Horn
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location:
Posts: 478
RE: ATA Show Review
The cheek piece only fits any of the thumbhole stocks or the "new" traditional stocks. Those can be identified by five "slash marks" cut into the flat section above the trigger...if you have an older stock you are out of luck
Wyvern
Wyvern
01-12-2009, 07:28 AM
#6
Fork Horn
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location:
Posts: 478
RE: ATA Show Review
Afew notes that I did not make in the review. The Horton line is NOT made in America, but in Chanvzhou China ( I guess the orientals that were wandering around did not bother to stop at the Horton booth) They also just layed off a number of people in their US facility. It is one of the reasons the pricing is as low as it is on the Vision. I had heard thru the grapevine that Excal had contracted a while ago to have parts of their bows made in china and when the quality came back crap they discontinued that idea and about a year later (Oh, HERE is a surprize!) an exact replica pops up on the market made by WhoFlungPoo INC. I guess if you hand your blueprints and specs to China you just make it easier for them to copy it....smooth move! As a side note one of the advantages of the almost relentless quest for yearly changes is that manufacturers can keep one step ahead of the copycats. Excal kinda stopped moving forward awhile ago(not much else they can do with that design really unless they want to add some of the features found on other bows like DFI and automatic safety but they refuse to do that) so they are great targets for copycats. The US companies are changing too quick. By the time they copy a bow it is replaced by a new version so it drys up the market.
Wyvern [/align]
Wyvern [/align]
01-12-2009, 11:46 AM
#7
Spike
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location:
Posts: 76
RE: ATA Show Review
Wyvern, o.k. so the first defender was too loud cause the scope mount was loose that said, did you think after the riser was fixed that its a decent model??, dollars to dollars a little more spent would be wiser spent on the phantom?? or what other brand?? i like the tenpoint acces. line with there bows but was counting in the defender to be my next bow, i have a stealth now and want to go to swept back limb model cause i really like the narrow design being in a stand as much as i am in the fall and winter[oh and the extra speed is nice also but not a deal breaker],speed........
01-12-2009, 12:06 PM
#8
Fork Horn
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location:
Posts: 478
RE: ATA Show Review
Once that riser thickness issue is taken care of I think this is going to be a great bow. It is not quite as narrow as the Phantom but a LOT lighter. The riser issue was more aestetics than anything...It "looked weird" but was far enough down to not have an issue with accuracy. The Phantom/Shadow IMO are a more stable platform and money wize the Shadow is a better "bargain" if you dont need all the extras, but dollar for dollar you probably will be very happy with the Defender...
Wyvern
Wyvern
01-12-2009, 12:24 PM
#9
Spike
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location:
Posts: 76
RE: ATA Show Review
david, cant wait till you really put that model to the test, are you getting adefender from suffield[tenpoint] soon that you can test?? speed.....oh and thanks for the ATA review i would have loved to be there