Future of the Crossbow
02-17-2006, 08:17 AM
#41
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Newtonville, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 3,896
RE: Future of the Crossbow
ORIGINAL: Arthur P
DNK, I've heard that same uneducated drivel from people who want to outlaw archery hunting altogether. [>:]
Sorry this is not uneducated drivel. This writer is a person who successfully completed a three year course in forestry and parts and rec. I worked for the Ministry of Natural Resources in Ontario
----------------------------------
A crossbow is no more lethal than the person behind it. Ifthe guy with a crossbow isamoronic goon who routinely takes shots beyond his known effective range, then he is not nearly as lethal as the guy who shoots a homemade selfbow, but knows his limits and hunts within them. Even if those limits are only 10 yards!
I agree, a moronic goon is a moronic goon behind a spear or high precision rifle.
-----------------------------------
Is it easier to fail with a selfbow than with a crossbow? If you define 'failure' as eating tag stew at the end of the season, then hell yes. But if you define it asfailing to make a clean kill when he does take a shot, it's no more likely to failthan with a compound or crossbow. Or handgun. Or muzzleloader. Or shotgun. Or rifle.
Here you failed to understand what I say. What was it? It was that the learning curve of one is much higher that the other. That there will be more mishaps with a weapon that is difficult to master. So why look down on a crossbow hunter? Yes the crossbow hunter can take a wild chance just like a vert bow hunter, just like a rifle hunter but look at yourself before pointing at the crossbow hunter. It is intent that matters as well not just actions.
Strange, isn't it? How people who don't want others ignorantly blasting them for their choice of weapon have absolutely no qualms about doingthe exact same thingto others.
Here we go again. I use all legal weapons. I take exception to being to being looked down upon when I grab my crossbow because I know I have less of a chance of screwing up that day for what ever reason. On really cold days with bulky clothing and my muscles stiff I use my crossbow because at thirty five yards (my max distance I shoot) the possibility of missing is much lower that one of my compounds. Yes I got dirty looks one day with my crossbow from guys with compounds all bulked up and shivering at the end of long cold day. Mean time my compound is warm at home. Some how I am a lower hunter for using a crossbow. Have you tried to pull a bow string back and hold it when you are really cold or tired?
.--------------------------------------
thesource, as for you pointing out the traditional harvest in GA was higher than both compound and crossbow, you need to show reliable data. Same on you for not sourcing such a claim!
Look up. The words "traditional harvest, Ga" ETC was never typed. I am sorry but you are mistaken.
-----------------------------------------
Just saying it doesn't make it true. In fact, it sounds like fallacious propaganda. (Especially in light of DNK's outburst about how traditionalequipment is so 'easy to fail' with).If it's true, then crossbow and compound hunters in GA must be horribly bad hunters and every traditional hunter there must be a world champion. LOL
Here you go again. I never typed the word "traditional". Ya must have had a bad day! Read what I say in my second post...Its the marginal hunters chasing Pope and Young that is being bashed here. In the prior post there is no bashing of a stick bow users. Please read what I typed again.
--------------------------------------------------
Come to think of it, Byron Ferguson lives and hunts in GA, and he is certainly no slouch with his longbow. Maybe he's singlehandedly skewing the harvest data? [8D]
I do not know what you are talking about. I did not mention this name or place.
--------------------------------------------
When I looked at the archeryharvest data on GDNA's website, there was no breakdown between traditional, compound and crossbow. It was all lumped together with an overallhunter success rate of 50%.
That is nice but I never mentioned this either.
------------------------------------
If you want sources for my numbers above, you can get a copy of the McAlister study from Oklahoma State University. Ohio's harvest numbers are posted on the ODNR website.
I do not want sources because I am not interested nor am I talking about it.
Now I am done venting.
DNK, I've heard that same uneducated drivel from people who want to outlaw archery hunting altogether. [>:]
Sorry this is not uneducated drivel. This writer is a person who successfully completed a three year course in forestry and parts and rec. I worked for the Ministry of Natural Resources in Ontario
----------------------------------
A crossbow is no more lethal than the person behind it. Ifthe guy with a crossbow isamoronic goon who routinely takes shots beyond his known effective range, then he is not nearly as lethal as the guy who shoots a homemade selfbow, but knows his limits and hunts within them. Even if those limits are only 10 yards!
I agree, a moronic goon is a moronic goon behind a spear or high precision rifle.
-----------------------------------
Is it easier to fail with a selfbow than with a crossbow? If you define 'failure' as eating tag stew at the end of the season, then hell yes. But if you define it asfailing to make a clean kill when he does take a shot, it's no more likely to failthan with a compound or crossbow. Or handgun. Or muzzleloader. Or shotgun. Or rifle.
Here you failed to understand what I say. What was it? It was that the learning curve of one is much higher that the other. That there will be more mishaps with a weapon that is difficult to master. So why look down on a crossbow hunter? Yes the crossbow hunter can take a wild chance just like a vert bow hunter, just like a rifle hunter but look at yourself before pointing at the crossbow hunter. It is intent that matters as well not just actions.
Strange, isn't it? How people who don't want others ignorantly blasting them for their choice of weapon have absolutely no qualms about doingthe exact same thingto others.
Here we go again. I use all legal weapons. I take exception to being to being looked down upon when I grab my crossbow because I know I have less of a chance of screwing up that day for what ever reason. On really cold days with bulky clothing and my muscles stiff I use my crossbow because at thirty five yards (my max distance I shoot) the possibility of missing is much lower that one of my compounds. Yes I got dirty looks one day with my crossbow from guys with compounds all bulked up and shivering at the end of long cold day. Mean time my compound is warm at home. Some how I am a lower hunter for using a crossbow. Have you tried to pull a bow string back and hold it when you are really cold or tired?
.--------------------------------------
thesource, as for you pointing out the traditional harvest in GA was higher than both compound and crossbow, you need to show reliable data. Same on you for not sourcing such a claim!
Look up. The words "traditional harvest, Ga" ETC was never typed. I am sorry but you are mistaken.
-----------------------------------------
Just saying it doesn't make it true. In fact, it sounds like fallacious propaganda. (Especially in light of DNK's outburst about how traditionalequipment is so 'easy to fail' with
).If it's true, then crossbow and compound hunters in GA must be horribly bad hunters and every traditional hunter there must be a world champion. LOL Here you go again. I never typed the word "traditional". Ya must have had a bad day! Read what I say in my second post...Its the marginal hunters chasing Pope and Young that is being bashed here. In the prior post there is no bashing of a stick bow users. Please read what I typed again.
--------------------------------------------------
Come to think of it, Byron Ferguson lives and hunts in GA, and he is certainly no slouch with his longbow. Maybe he's singlehandedly skewing the harvest data? [8D]
I do not know what you are talking about. I did not mention this name or place.
--------------------------------------------
When I looked at the archeryharvest data on GDNA's website, there was no breakdown between traditional, compound and crossbow. It was all lumped together with an overallhunter success rate of 50%.
That is nice but I never mentioned this either.
------------------------------------
If you want sources for my numbers above, you can get a copy of the McAlister study from Oklahoma State University. Ohio's harvest numbers are posted on the ODNR website.
I do not want sources because I am not interested nor am I talking about it.
Now I am done venting.
I have met far too many vert bow hunters who think their game is the only moral game. One thing that will never be disputed is the ability for things to go wrong with a bow and arrow.
No I have no problem with anyone hunting with anything legal.
Yes I have a problem with anyone even thinking that a crossbow is imoral, wrong, misguided or anything but a good hunting tool. I really have a problem with the person who uses the same tool only configured differently chewing away at a crossbow hunter. I have a bigger problem with the last person that I described if he is chasing a Pope and Young placement!!
Essentially what I am saying was that a crossbow is a more efficient tool so do not give a crossbow hunter a hard time about using one. We should all make sure the first priority is to ensure as little suffering as possible when taking game. I dearly want to get along with every one hunting legally. I do have a problem with anyone who bashes another for hunting with a different tool.
I think we are talking about two different things. I obviously have not explained myself well enough. It was late and maybe I was not articulate enough. If you did not understand what I said I appologize if you did I am ready for round two. Just joking. I think that either you read what I wrote poorly or I presented what I meant to say poorly.
I only want to kick the shins of those vert bow hunters who have given me or others attitude for using a crossbow. Nothing said bad about using a compound, rifle, shotgun, handgun, muzzle loader... I use all of these as well and have not growled at the mirror yet.
02-17-2006, 09:40 AM
#42
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,175
RE: Future of the Crossbow
Well, Dnk, I guess you better glove up for round two because I am definitely not mistaking you for someone else. Even if I give you the benefit of the doubt that maybe your first post was badly worded,your followup post left me with little doubt what you were getting at. Pretty hard to misunderstand this:
You have reliable datafrom verifiable sources that conventional bows"cause more failures (AKA woundings)" than crossbows?Then post it.From all the data I've seen, wound/loss ratiosfor those usingcrossbows are roughly equal to those usingcompounds. If you mean sheer numbers, then yes, you are correct but only because there are many times the number of hunters using conventional bows vs crossbows. The ratios are same.
Besides all that, while acknowledging that 'stuff happens', wounding and losing an animal isusually NOT anequipment issue.More often than not, it'sa matter ofthe individual hunter's ethics and/or experience. Or, rather,the lack of ethics and/or experience.
I understand how your exasperation with the attitude is upsetting, but don't let yourangstlead you to making assinine comments that could be used to get ALL archery hunting banned! PETA picks it up, cuts and pastes your post on their website and give it the banner "Here's what they say about it themselves!" Why would you give lip to such a weapon to be used against us all, conventional and crossbow alike?
And, for the record, I don't callcrossbow huntersnames, except I do properly call them crossbow hunters and not 'bow'hunters.I don't think of them as cheaters and I definitely agree with you that today's compound shooters have no room to talk on that point. I do not give crossbow hunters a hard time. At least, not as long as they're using them legally.Why wouldI? I use one myself when I feel the urge to do something different.
Does it not logically follow that a tool that is more difficult to master would also be easier to fail with? So why put an emphasis as well as importance on the tools that cause more failures (aka woundings)? If the animal activists ever get qued in on the fact that organizations like Young and Pope and their followers have a trail of painfull woundings the people that feel apart from every one else may be on their own. That folks would put yet another nail in our coffins! I would like to know how many more arrows there are in animals running around or dead in the woods compared to crossbow bolts?
Besides all that, while acknowledging that 'stuff happens', wounding and losing an animal isusually NOT anequipment issue.More often than not, it'sa matter ofthe individual hunter's ethics and/or experience. Or, rather,the lack of ethics and/or experience.
I understand how your exasperation with the attitude is upsetting, but don't let yourangstlead you to making assinine comments that could be used to get ALL archery hunting banned! PETA picks it up, cuts and pastes your post on their website and give it the banner "Here's what they say about it themselves!" Why would you give lip to such a weapon to be used against us all, conventional and crossbow alike?
And, for the record, I don't callcrossbow huntersnames, except I do properly call them crossbow hunters and not 'bow'hunters.I don't think of them as cheaters and I definitely agree with you that today's compound shooters have no room to talk on that point. I do not give crossbow hunters a hard time. At least, not as long as they're using them legally.Why wouldI? I use one myself when I feel the urge to do something different.
02-17-2006, 01:03 PM
#43
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Newtonville, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 3,896
RE: Future of the Crossbow
Ok. Apparently you and I have one more thing to straighten out by example this time.
I no longer hunt with this one person to be described. This person who is part of an organization (crossbows not allowed) that promotes head hunting. They take pride in the large racks. I know from his bragging and consequent questioning from myself that he has taken a small percentage of the animals that he has shot with his compound bow. The percentage is roughly 10%. This poor example of a "hunter" is better suited to something more easily mastered like a crossbow. He likes to hunt in Alberta where he is not allowed to use a crossbow. Yet he still flings away and some of the animals run away not to be recovered. How many mortally wounded? I do not know but that other 90% have been stuck. That is what that quote was all about. Not about YOU, not others that successfully take animals with good conscience. I think if good conscience were involved then these willing "mistakes" would be reduced to an acceptable level. What is acceptable? Acceptable to me would be where every miss has nothing but good intent. All hunting will get banned if people like PETA drives in a wedge into the crack between all hunters. I know of two "cracks" one is the where the prestigious vert bow hunters look down upon crossbow hunters and the other is irresponsible hunters. Guys who hunt in National Parks, guys who do not shoot (anything) as well as they should, guys that take chances they shouldn't, etc. Why do they do it? Because of pride. They would be very proud of themselves as well as gain fame to get entered into a "book". That, sir is what I am saying. This is not to say that all Pope and Young (and other such organizations) are like this. In fact I would think that are many that still follow in the true spirit of the game. But the fame has brought many that do not. Those, I find are the ones who are more likely to denounce a crossbow. I am not saying that if you denounce crossbows you are probably a bad hunter.
If I hadn't read your post and discovered that you have intellegent things to say I would think you are nuts. I think you just like a good arguement and I admit that maybe I do not express myself well. But you are yappin at the wrong tree here.
For the record these people that I obviously have so little respect for are not hunters in my mind.
For the record I did not say that you called anyone names.
For the record re: percentage vs sheer numbers. Sheer numbers yes. Those sheer numbers would be lower if a crossbow were allowed in their state or provence.
Did I get you all fired up this time? If you take a reading pill I will take a writing pill.
I no longer hunt with this one person to be described. This person who is part of an organization (crossbows not allowed) that promotes head hunting. They take pride in the large racks. I know from his bragging and consequent questioning from myself that he has taken a small percentage of the animals that he has shot with his compound bow. The percentage is roughly 10%. This poor example of a "hunter" is better suited to something more easily mastered like a crossbow. He likes to hunt in Alberta where he is not allowed to use a crossbow. Yet he still flings away and some of the animals run away not to be recovered. How many mortally wounded? I do not know but that other 90% have been stuck. That is what that quote was all about. Not about YOU, not others that successfully take animals with good conscience. I think if good conscience were involved then these willing "mistakes" would be reduced to an acceptable level. What is acceptable? Acceptable to me would be where every miss has nothing but good intent. All hunting will get banned if people like PETA drives in a wedge into the crack between all hunters. I know of two "cracks" one is the where the prestigious vert bow hunters look down upon crossbow hunters and the other is irresponsible hunters. Guys who hunt in National Parks, guys who do not shoot (anything) as well as they should, guys that take chances they shouldn't, etc. Why do they do it? Because of pride. They would be very proud of themselves as well as gain fame to get entered into a "book". That, sir is what I am saying. This is not to say that all Pope and Young (and other such organizations) are like this. In fact I would think that are many that still follow in the true spirit of the game. But the fame has brought many that do not. Those, I find are the ones who are more likely to denounce a crossbow. I am not saying that if you denounce crossbows you are probably a bad hunter.
If I hadn't read your post and discovered that you have intellegent things to say I would think you are nuts. I think you just like a good arguement and I admit that maybe I do not express myself well. But you are yappin at the wrong tree here.
For the record these people that I obviously have so little respect for are not hunters in my mind.
For the record I did not say that you called anyone names.
For the record re: percentage vs sheer numbers. Sheer numbers yes. Those sheer numbers would be lower if a crossbow were allowed in their state or provence.
Did I get you all fired up this time? If you take a reading pill I will take a writing pill.
02-17-2006, 02:16 PM
#44
Super Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Central Utah
Posts: 4,815
RE: Future of the Crossbow
This is NOT the forum for debating crossbowsvs.compounds/spears/self bow/Ditkaissues. If you must debate the issue, please go to the Off-season or Hunting and Politics.
So, rather than driving myself nuts trying to weed out parts of or whole posts.. I'm just locking this thread.
Thanks/sorry,
Christine A.
So, rather than driving myself nuts trying to weed out parts of or whole posts.. I'm just locking this thread.
Thanks/sorry,
Christine A.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
moxie1884
Crossbows
14
04-10-2010 03:48 AM
