Future of the Crossbow
02-15-2006, 07:38 AM
#31
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Bandera, Texas
Posts: 1,636
RE: Future of the Crossbow
Arthur P, guess you are right, might be looking at it wrong! 
Guess I see there is room for everyone, and it is not going to go away. And you might be right, we need what it would take to save face and get the groups to set down and agree on a way to proceed. THink there was a state just passed a law for a couple days. Maybe we need to look at ways to start small and move forward........ some ask where we gonna fit it in. I say where there is a will there is a way........ meaning we all cooperate and move forward!
Guess I see there is room for everyone, and it is not going to go away. And you might be right, we need what it would take to save face and get the groups to set down and agree on a way to proceed. THink there was a state just passed a law for a couple days. Maybe we need to look at ways to start small and move forward........ some ask where we gonna fit it in. I say where there is a will there is a way........ meaning we all cooperate and move forward!
02-15-2006, 10:03 AM
#32
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Findlay, Ohio
Posts: 3,286
RE: Future of the Crossbow
ORIGINAL: Arthur P
Bow season is OUR house. You want in? Then be nice, make yourself acquainted and be friendly. Unfortunately, the opportunity to make that first impression is long past. It started off with the cuss fight and it hasn't let up since.
Sorry I must of missed the part in the game laws that said that it was you house? And as for it starting out as a cuss fight I am sure most CB users will agree that when we talk about hunting with a CB we dont say now come on call me a name because I know your more rightous? In ohio I am lucky because CB's are accepted but the argument always starts buy a long bow guy saying to me "i didn't know you were handicaped or being called a cheater right from the get go" If you think the arguing is the CB's fault then you are really in denial.
It's the crossbow contingent that started the war. It's up to you guys to make peace. What have you been doing in those states where the crossbow has recently been accepted? You've been loudly proclaiming victory over bowhunters. Very ungracious victors, the whole lot of you. Now you're in a season where a great many of the guys in the woods would just as soon shoot you as the deer. Not very smart. Not a very good way to prep the bowhunters next state on the list. You're perpetuating the anger and strengthening your opposition.
I think this paragraph sums up my point that I wrote in my first paragraph. like I said we just asked for all the harasment didn't we?
Argue your case intelligently and logically with facts, not emotion.
Next time I will try that when I am called a cheater and not a true hunter.
I've removed myself from the battle. All I can do is give you my insight as a long time opponent of crossbows. It's up to you guys how you use it. You can make things easier and the future brighter, or you can maintain the battlefield tactics and wind up sharing the woods with enemies, leavingemotional wounds that maybe, in another generation or two,will have healed over.
Yep I guess this sums it up that it's all us doesn't it?
I think the crossbow will soon be fully acceptedmost everywhere, regardless. It's simply a matter of whether it will be a mostly friendly transition or not that will tell you what kind of future you'll have.
The fact of it being friendly is not up to us, were not the ones upset. HopeI left emotion out but your post is why it gets brought in. Will try not to post on this thread again because the forum said that the catagory is not for debating the use of CB's and theis thread has obiously turned into that. I too hope we can be accepted someday but like I said its not up to us.
Bow season is OUR house. You want in? Then be nice, make yourself acquainted and be friendly. Unfortunately, the opportunity to make that first impression is long past. It started off with the cuss fight and it hasn't let up since.
Sorry I must of missed the part in the game laws that said that it was you house? And as for it starting out as a cuss fight I am sure most CB users will agree that when we talk about hunting with a CB we dont say now come on call me a name because I know your more rightous? In ohio I am lucky because CB's are accepted but the argument always starts buy a long bow guy saying to me "i didn't know you were handicaped or being called a cheater right from the get go" If you think the arguing is the CB's fault then you are really in denial. It's the crossbow contingent that started the war. It's up to you guys to make peace. What have you been doing in those states where the crossbow has recently been accepted? You've been loudly proclaiming victory over bowhunters. Very ungracious victors, the whole lot of you. Now you're in a season where a great many of the guys in the woods would just as soon shoot you as the deer. Not very smart. Not a very good way to prep the bowhunters next state on the list. You're perpetuating the anger and strengthening your opposition.
I think this paragraph sums up my point that I wrote in my first paragraph. like I said we just asked for all the harasment didn't we?
Argue your case intelligently and logically with facts, not emotion.
Next time I will try that when I am called a cheater and not a true hunter.
I've removed myself from the battle. All I can do is give you my insight as a long time opponent of crossbows. It's up to you guys how you use it. You can make things easier and the future brighter, or you can maintain the battlefield tactics and wind up sharing the woods with enemies, leavingemotional wounds that maybe, in another generation or two,will have healed over.
Yep I guess this sums it up that it's all us doesn't it?
I think the crossbow will soon be fully acceptedmost everywhere, regardless. It's simply a matter of whether it will be a mostly friendly transition or not that will tell you what kind of future you'll have.
The fact of it being friendly is not up to us, were not the ones upset. HopeI left emotion out but your post is why it gets brought in. Will try not to post on this thread again because the forum said that the catagory is not for debating the use of CB's and theis thread has obiously turned into that. I too hope we can be accepted someday but like I said its not up to us.
02-15-2006, 11:18 AM
#33
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,175
RE: Future of the Crossbow
Sorry I must of missed the part in the game laws that said that it was you house?
As for the rest of your post, it's all a bunch of emotionalism and hard feelings. Exactly what name calling -from both sides- accomplishes. I'm saying cut it out because it has no part in the true issue.
The issue USED to be that crossbows would make killing deer too easy, and hunter success ratios would be too high when compared to conventional bows. The fear was that liberal bow seasons would be cut back. That is now a moot point, because of the advances in compound technology over the past decade. Hunter success ratios have climbed exponentially since the compound came on the market.
The Army Ammunition Depot at McAlester, OK has a herd management bowhunton their propertyevery year. When they allowed compounds, hunter success numbers were up in the 35% range and that was too high for their management needs. They could reduce the number of hunters they allowed. They could shorten the length of the hunt. But that was counter to their secondary goal of offering maximum usage for the greatest number of hunters. So, they changed it to traditional only and the success rates dropped back to around 15%. Right on target for what they wanted to accomplish. Interesting side note... wound/loss ratios also dropped dramatically.
Now, looking at Ohio's archery season hunter success ratios, including crosbows, the success ratio is right at 35%. Same as at McAlester where crossbows were not allowed. So, the success ratios with modern compounds is exactly the same as that for the crossbow.
Now, armed with those facts, next timea compound shootercalls you a cheater, you have some good information to counter with. You can prove you are cheating no more than he is.
02-16-2006, 03:55 PM
#35
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location:
Posts: 224
RE: Future of the Crossbow
ORIGINAL: Arthur P
Now, looking at Ohio's archery season hunter success ratios, including crosbows, the success ratio is right at 35%. Same as at McAlester where crossbows were not allowed. So, the success ratios with modern compounds is exactly the same as that for the crossbow.
Now, armed with those facts, next timea compound shootercalls you a cheater, you have some good information to counter with. You can prove you are cheating no more than he is.
Now, looking at Ohio's archery season hunter success ratios, including crosbows, the success ratio is right at 35%. Same as at McAlester where crossbows were not allowed. So, the success ratios with modern compounds is exactly the same as that for the crossbow.
Now, armed with those facts, next timea compound shootercalls you a cheater, you have some good information to counter with. You can prove you are cheating no more than he is.
Sounds great .... until someone points out that in GA the trads harvest rate was actually higher than the compounds and crossbows, and all of them had success rate ~50%.
No, you can't compare statistics willy-nilly across state lines to prove your point. Shame on you.
02-16-2006, 04:42 PM
#36
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 6,585
RE: Future of the Crossbow
I am sure glad that in AR we cut all kinds of discrimination especally against the kids ,old people and disabled; ifyou look at the people out in the field that use xbows around 50 percent fall into these catagories. Nobody has to use one and most don't I did not myself till I got over 65 and the aruthoritis in my shoulders made it necessary but you won't ever find me trying to get a disability lic. nowhere because of natural aging either.Lee
02-16-2006, 05:44 PM
#37
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Newtonville, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 3,896
RE: Future of the Crossbow
I have to say that I have shot compounds for many years and quite accurately I might add. When the season comes by I still pack the xbow most of the time. The reason is that as a hunter using all conventional tools, I have found that I would rather use a tool that is more efficient when the situation arises. What does that mean? Well!!!! If I am hunting white tail during our archery season and I can use an xbow, I almost always grab my xbow. Why? Well....I know that I can out shoot any compound bow hunter with my Excalibur. Now if I were to choose my one of my compounds over my xbow it is because I know that the circumstances will render my xbow just as efficient that anyone's compound! I use my xbow more often when the weather gets cold because I shoot an xbow more accurately with heavy clothing just like everyone else. What does all this mean? What it means is that I will shelve my pride in my compound bow shooting and put my quarry in correct perspective. In english this means that I choose the xbow over the compound to ensure a cleaner kill. In the end I take exception to any one denouncing myself for using an xbow because I use this wonderfull tool not because it is easier to use but because I know that under certain conditions I will have a higher possibility of a cleaner kill. Those who disagree certainly have not ever shot an xbow or they put their personal pride ahead of their quarry. Who in their right mind would choose a tool of lesser leathality and take a risk of making an animal suffer longer than necessary? Only one! That person would be one over come with pride with less concern for their quarry than me and all other xbow shooters. Sure xbow shooters can pick up a stick bow that cannot shoot with the same accuracy or power but they do not because they know they can humanely hunt their game with an xbow. We as xbow hunters should hunt knowing that we have the ability to hunt more wisely and try to educate those who arrived to the field on higher horses. If we can educate then we have done a favour to the animals that we have such great respect for. I do not feel that I am better than any hunter using any other tool but I do get peeved when anyone suggests that a crossbow is anything but a better hunting tool.
I think I am calming down now....grrrrrr. Just had to vent.
JLmoore1956. Be safe and get back in one piece. I am a Canadian that supports your troops. My thoughts are with you guys all the time.
I think I am calming down now....grrrrrr. Just had to vent.
JLmoore1956. Be safe and get back in one piece. I am a Canadian that supports your troops. My thoughts are with you guys all the time.
02-16-2006, 07:13 PM
#38
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4
RE: Future of the Crossbow
Isn't there also alot of tension in this area over record book scores regarding animals taken with archery tackle? Longbows being more difficult to master and therefore animals taken with an easier and more efficient tool don't count? i still don't understand why there isn't simply another section added to the record book. This really has me puzzled when you bring conventional firearms into the equation.
02-16-2006, 08:34 PM
#39
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Newtonville, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 3,896
RE: Future of the Crossbow
I certainly am with you marlinchester. Does it not logically follow that a tool that is more difficult to master would also be easier to fail with? So why put an emphasis as well as importance on the tools that cause more failures (aka woundings)? If the animal activists ever get qued in on the fact that organizations like Young and Pope and their followers have a trail of painfull woundings the people that feel apart from every one else may be on their own. That folks would put yet another nail in our coffins! I would like to know how many more arrows there are in animals running around or dead in the woods compared to crossbow bolts?
02-17-2006, 06:47 AM
#40
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,175
RE: Future of the Crossbow
DNK, I've heard that same uneducated drivel from people who want to outlaw archery hunting altogether. [>:]
A crossbow is no more lethal than the person behind it. Ifthe guy with a crossbow isamoronic goon who routinely takes shots beyond his known effective range, then he is not nearly as lethal as the guy who shoots a homemade selfbow, but knows his limits and hunts within them. Even if those limits are only 10 yards!
Is it easier to fail with a selfbow than with a crossbow? If you define 'failure' as eating tag stew at the end of the season, then hell yes. But if you define it asfailing to make a clean kill when he does take a shot, it's no more likely to failthan with a compound or crossbow. Or handgun. Or muzzleloader. Or shotgun. Or rifle.
Strange, isn't it? How people who don't want others ignorantly blasting them for their choice of weapon have absolutely no qualms about doingthe exact same thingto others.
thesource, as for you pointing out the traditional harvest in GA was higher than both compound and crossbow, you need to show reliable data. Same on you for not sourcing such a claim!
Just saying it doesn't make it true. In fact, it sounds like fallacious propaganda. (Especially in light of DNK's outburst about how traditionalequipment is so 'easy to fail' with).If it's true, then crossbow and compound hunters in GA must be horribly bad hunters and every traditional hunter there must be a world champion. LOL
Come to think of it, Byron Ferguson lives and hunts in GA, and he is certainly no slouch with his longbow. Maybe he's singlehandedly skewing the harvest data? [8D]
When I looked at the archeryharvest data on GDNA's website, there was no breakdown between traditional, compound and crossbow. It was all lumped together with an overallhunter success rate of 50%.
If you want sources for my numbers above, you can get a copy of the McAlister study from Oklahoma State University. Ohio's harvest numbers are posted on the ODNR website.
Now I am done venting.
A crossbow is no more lethal than the person behind it. Ifthe guy with a crossbow isamoronic goon who routinely takes shots beyond his known effective range, then he is not nearly as lethal as the guy who shoots a homemade selfbow, but knows his limits and hunts within them. Even if those limits are only 10 yards!
Is it easier to fail with a selfbow than with a crossbow? If you define 'failure' as eating tag stew at the end of the season, then hell yes. But if you define it asfailing to make a clean kill when he does take a shot, it's no more likely to failthan with a compound or crossbow. Or handgun. Or muzzleloader. Or shotgun. Or rifle.
Strange, isn't it? How people who don't want others ignorantly blasting them for their choice of weapon have absolutely no qualms about doingthe exact same thingto others.
thesource, as for you pointing out the traditional harvest in GA was higher than both compound and crossbow, you need to show reliable data. Same on you for not sourcing such a claim!
Just saying it doesn't make it true. In fact, it sounds like fallacious propaganda. (Especially in light of DNK's outburst about how traditionalequipment is so 'easy to fail' with
).If it's true, then crossbow and compound hunters in GA must be horribly bad hunters and every traditional hunter there must be a world champion. LOL Come to think of it, Byron Ferguson lives and hunts in GA, and he is certainly no slouch with his longbow. Maybe he's singlehandedly skewing the harvest data? [8D]
When I looked at the archeryharvest data on GDNA's website, there was no breakdown between traditional, compound and crossbow. It was all lumped together with an overallhunter success rate of 50%.
If you want sources for my numbers above, you can get a copy of the McAlister study from Oklahoma State University. Ohio's harvest numbers are posted on the ODNR website.
Now I am done venting.