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[Deleted by Admins]

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

That is the key to qdm. That and giving back to the herd.

For me you are preaching to the choir. IMO education is the key to good managment policies. It wasn't until 2 years ago I started to see the light and now when giving the opportunity to explain about qdm and the benefits I jump on it. QDM can't be jammed down a persons throat but it can be planted as a seed to grow with the individual hunter. Its up to each hunter to decide how and if they want to participate. I'll just continue to plant seed (literally and figuratively) for the better of our herd.

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

[:'(] (not to QDM but to overly preachy threads like this - come down off the soap box and enjoy reality with the rest of us.)

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

Well, I'll say this. I shoot a recurve and I'll take that little 1 1/2 year old buck and consider it a hell of a trophy.

What defines the challenges of a hunt isn't always the size of the rack. Would I love to have 180" bucks running around ? Yes, I would, but I wouldn't sacrifice filling my tags every year so i could kil a "big one" every 2-3 years.

Size of racks are important ............ but not nearly as important as the Hunt itsself and I think QDM loses that in overall perspective.

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

Just a question

If there is to many deer in your county and you see a Poacher killing does for food. ARE they helping ?


It is not most of the hard core hunters on here that shoot the babys it is a lot of weekend hunters that shoot on 1st sight. I dout you will ever get to them.

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

To many times I see a perfectly good and serious management thread like this attacked by a bunch of "brown downers" and turn it int a pissin' contest. I agree with you totally though. It's all about educating the sportsman out there and not giving up until changes in peoples attitudes are made. Many of these folks that shoot anything and everything they can yet they will stand at the check-in station and Shops and complain about how their are no big deer in their area??? I just don't get these people :(

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

IL-Cornfed - noactually, people who shoot the first deer they can because they want meat, or because its fulfilling their personal challenge NEVER complain about lack of big deer. They're VERY happy to have filled their tags - which was the goal they had in mind.

Guys who look for huge racks and end up shooting a dink ....... they're the ones complaining

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

I see QDM a bit differently. QDM is not always about point restrictions and bigger racks, its about a healthy deer herd. Unfortunately one has become synonomous with the other one.

I rather take the approach of the F&G biologist are there to look after the herd. If they say we can't shoot does, or we have to shoot more does, or whatever, great, lets do it. I have no issue hunting here in NH and shooting the first legal deer that comes by, be it a small doe, big doe, spike or big buck. I also have no issue with my trip to PA where I have to pass on bucks until the get to 3 pts/side.

This attitude is somewhat naive because politics enters into it. However, I will side with the biologist recommendation. I hunt because I enjoy it and because my family likes the meat. Any LEGAL deer that walks by is fair game. If I am in the mood to pass because its a button or a doe or a small buck or whatever, that's my decision an nobody else should have any say over that.

--Bob

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

As a individual I do what i can. Several years ago I stop shooting small bucks.I only take a doe in a over populated area. But the problem these areas are usually posted and the owner might let a handicapped person hunt only. I plowed up my back yard this spring and am trying to plant a plot ,not to hunt it ,but to feed the deer and create a safe zone for the deer ,since the pop is down in my little area.
To my own concern is there is no place for handicapped people to hunt in Pa that is not expensive to get access.The game lands are to rough and I know few disabled people who can afford ATV;s,trailers and So forth.Most their money goes for medical needs. The State of Pa could open many of the parks just for disabled bow hunters. NO they hire hit groups to slaughter the deer at night under lights. There is one Sportsmans shop here in New Holland Pa that puts a hunt on for the disabled. They talked a power company and camp ground in to having a 1 day hunt. Need more of this done.Lots of places not open for no good reason. I went on that hunt and they did a nice job. One private land owner with way to many deer did leave me hunt,but would not allow anyone even to help me. And then ask for a small fee of 100.00 a deer. I bet the guy has 200 deer on his 75 acres. He wont let no one else on.

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

datamax,

Weren't you just complaining in a thirty-page thread that compounds were too easy? Maybe you should start passing on those "easy" 1 1/2-year-olds and holding out for something more "challenging?"

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

Bob H in NH - good point. I do view QDM as BRDM (Big Rack Deer Management)

You misunderstood. Compounds ARE easy when compared to recurve/longbows, and recurves/longbow are easy compared to self bowyers. But bowhunting a deer isn't "easy" no matter what bow you choose because thats still a 20 yard shot you have to make, be it a crossbow or compound or recurve in your hands.

But back to the thread ......... my input was that while I can understand QDM on one level, for me a trophy isn't neccessarily the size of the rack. I've hunted 2 years now in AR with my recurve without killing a deer - and it SUCKS. I'm be absolutely THRILLED with a 5 point buck this fall - I really would.

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

That's a totally different topic altogether. My challenge is hunting/ambushing NOT wether or not I can hit it! :( Admit it, you just want to kill ANYTHING. Let's say you do get a deer, wouldn't it be natural to want to up the bar a bit and set some goals after that??? :) We are just saying SHOOT some DOES!!!

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

I shoot more doe than I can ever remember. still waiting for that nice 140 class buck to step in front of me that has eluded me two seasons in a rown now, but until then, I'll shoot as many doe as I can. I shot one in bow in the 03 season, and three in gun. I shot two in doe in bow this year, and two with the rifle. I was mad at myself because the one buck I shot in rifle was smaller than originally thought. He was looking up hill at me, making me thingk his g2's were bigger than they were. I did shoot a good management buck in archery. at bit 12" tall four ptr that aged at 3.5. passed more bucks than I ever have in my life in the past season.

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

You have no challenge in your equipment ?

QDM
 

Anyone who cares to. Feel free to come up to me at the check station and tell me what you think of the deer I harvested. I'll admire your balls but I won't understand you. It will do little to deminish the smile on my face or the accomplishment of the hunt. I like the taste of young deer. Buck or doe I'm thankful for what ever I take. As far as education goes, there is a real need for some of that in the world today. I'm a satisfied man and it's not that I don't want the approval of my peers, I'm just not going to beg for it.

RE: QDM
 

"I like the taste of young deer."..........

Have you ever shot an older deer??? Learn proper in-the-field meat care and then buy a cookbook and learn to prepare it and you'll learn that you can't taste the difference! News flash...... mature deer have MEAT as well..... just more of it! It's not like a 2 or 3 year old deer is going to chew like a Goodyear! We're not talking about putting down and insulting the deer you have taken...... we're just asking you to do YOUR part and TAKE some DOES. [&:]

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

For bowhunters to be talking about QDM is absurd, especially here in Texas where bow season isn't quite a month long and gun season is 3 months. The number of deer killed by arrows here is a drop in the bucket compared to the number taken by bullets. I'll leave the QDMBS to the gun hunters and side with datamax on this issue.

By the way IL-Cornfed, re: your snide little remark, "My challenge is hunting/ambushing NOT wether or not I can hit it!"

Just because you make fun of the traditional guys at the 3D shoots who have trouble hitting the target at 25-30 yards, that does NOT mean they shoot that far when hunting. Remember this old saying, perfectly describing the difference between shooting at targets and shooting at animals? "Archery is seeing how far away you can get from a target and still hit it. Bowhunting is getting close enough that you can't miss."

Those trads you make fun of are at an ARCHERY tournament, where they are required to shoot from distances they have no control over, distances often beyond their capabilities! At least they are out there shooting and trying to improve. Switch over to bowhunting, where they are in full control the distance of each shot they decide to take, things are entirely different. They only take shots they KNOW they can make. Like any other hunter, the traditional bowhunter has to get close enough to the animal that he cannot miss. For most of us, that's within 20 yards. For a great many, it's within 15. Some have to be even closer.

Know what? Recurves, longbows, even selfbows are used to successfully take open range animals (elk, pronghorn, caribou, etc) at well under 20 yards. These are the same animals that many bowhunters think can't taken unless they can shoot 40-50 yards. Truth is, the better HUNTER you are the closer you're able to get, so the less skilled you have to be when it comes to shooting. The guys who get them at close range are excellent hunters while the guys who can't get closer than 40 or 50 yards aren't so hot. Still, bottom line, a good shooter doesn't have to be that good a hunter while a bad shooter has to be a very good hunter.

So please, stop insinuating that hunting with a traditional bow is a hit or miss affair or, to read a little more into your implication, that it's somehow unethical. Nothing could be further from the truth.

RE: QDM
 

Old and young. Does. No problem. I like butchering smaller deer all though there is less there. A lot easier job. I also like taking a whole hind quarter of a small deer and injecting marinade into it and roasting it whole. Try doing that with a large hind.

For me to "do my part". Thanks but no thanks. You young guys do your part, me I'm just hungry.

This is wear I turn to my buddies and say "what's up with that guy" and they respond "I don't know, lets go have some venison".

Just so happens, that's what I am having tonight.

RE: QDM
 

IL-Cornfed - oh please. A guess you think an old ram sheep is better than a tasty young little mutton ? Little young deer ARE better eating. Old deer can be good eating too ......... but as a general rule young deer ARE more tasty

Arthur P - Its April Fool's day ............. is your siding with me a joke ? :D

RE: QDM
 

Absolutely fantastic point!

Not everybody is a great shot or has the equipment to make the long shots, so it's imperative to become the best hunter that you can.

RE: QDM
 

Since Bow mentioned state regulations in this thread, I would like to throw this little tidbit on you. Illinois has a 3 day antlerless firearms season in mid Janurary. It initially was for handguns but all firearms can be used now. I have talked to my taxadermist friend and was just today at my nearest pro shop. Both are telling me several hunters are killing bucks(some nice size) that have lost their antlers during those 3 days. Some by accident and some on purpose. Upon asking why anyone will kill a deer they knew was a buck without antlers the answer was................ the bigger body would produce more meat. So there goes all that QDM that was practiced.

RE: QDM
 

Had a couple Taxidermists say the same thing around here. They think that antlerless only season needs to be WAY earlier before the deer start dropping antlers. No one has admitted to them they did it on purpose but it has happened.

Old animal in general is going to have less fat %, coarser muscle fibers from older age/not growing anymore, and more impact of hormones on quality of meat. There is a reason people in this country eat Lamb (which by definition is under 12 months of age although the best is generally considered cornfed at 5-6 months of age), and steers at 12-18 months are the only ones that can grade prime. Even chicken/turkey genetics have been changed to increase growth rate in order to reach harvest quicker. This is economic but it is also societal. A yearling doe/buck is going to taste much more mild than a 5 year old. About nothing nastier as far as strong flavor than a buck, boar, bull or ram taken in the middle of breeding season. Fat reserves way down and hormones way up... Not a good combo.

RE: QDM
 

I don't know why anybody would knock QDM, it benefits everyone. I have a box of year and half old antlers that just collect dust . Don't get me wrong I'm very proud of them but the first mature buck you take with your bow will leave your mouth watering for more. It's the hardest hunting decision you'll have to make but the reward is endless. As for shooting a doe , that in it's self is a trophy.

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

Alas , a QDM perspective that I can agree with 110%!!!

I did my part last year (and the group I hunt with). It was EAB in our area last year and although I hated the fact that I had to let a really nice buck walk by because I hadn't filled my doe tag yet , I knew our area needed more doe harvests. We filled all our tags with doe to try and insure that we wouldn't be in EAB this year. I heard alot of pissin and moanin about it from hunters who refused to shoot any doe.[:@]
We came close to being a EAB unit again this year but it was shot down by our Resources Board.
I hear alot of guys saying yahooo, but the reason the DNR wanted to have EAB in our unit again this year is beause???? Yep! We still have too many doe.
My father in law was a little leary on shooting so many doe last year. That was until two weeks after gun season closed and he counted thirty seven doe in his back yard one evening.
I plan to do the same thing this year as I did last year.
For me , it's not about growing big bucks , it's about the health of the herd and keeping the buck to doe ratio relatively close.

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

So let's see...just thinking out loud.

I have the state control my county with AR.

I have my neighbors control the adjacent property with QDM.

I plant food plots on my 250 acres and pass small bucks for 3-4 years.

Then I start collecting a box or wall full of 135 class bucks.

Boy,that will impress the boys at the check station the next 10 years.

You're still the same caliber hunter you were when you started,you just made the average available deer bigger. The woods are no longer natural,you have created a deer farm.

At least you could sell a hunt or make a video if you wanted to...

I come from the old school of hunting that you take what's available in the area or region where you can hunt. If you take a 135 class deer every year in an area where there's only one every 5 square miles ...now you're a special hunter.

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

These thread always turn into arguements.:(

Instead of pushing my ideals, I just want to ask a few questions. Please answer them if you have the time. I promise this relates to the subject, though it may not seem to. Please keep your answers as short as possible. Thanks!

1. What is your age?

2. How many years have you been bowhunting?

3. Do you hunt with any other weapons?

4. How many years have you hunted with those weapons?

5. Are you for, or against QDM?

6. Would you like to see bigger bucks in your area, if there was no work on your part?

7. Would you travel to another state, or another woodlot in your state in search of a bigger buck?

8. What do you consider a successful hunting season?

9. Do you harvest animals for food, or for management of the herd/habitat?

10. Do you consider yourself a "hardcore" hunter (scouting and map reading year round)?
Or do you consider yourself a "casual" hunter(the majority of your time is spent actually hunting, scouting and prep are limited to a month or two before and/or after the season.)


Thanks for taking the time to answer these questions, and remember there are no right and wrong answers.

Have a good one--Matt:)

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

1. 24yrs

2. 14yrs

3. Yes, and no, I am giving up firearm hunting, I dont enjoy it.

4. 5yrs

5. I am for QDM

6. Yes

7. Yes, within reason. Money is an issue, as is time.

8. Any year I get to enjoy at least 30 days afield. Deer sightings also factors in, and finally harvesting one or two does a year is always nice. A large buck would just be icing on the cake.

9. Food, and management. I am not in dire need of venison, though it is nice to have, so I choose the animals I harvest with the best interest of the future herd, habitat and surrounding wildlife in mind.

10. Im in between a casual and a hardcore hunter. I know there are hunters out there who are more hardcore than I am. However, I do shoot year round, read maps, scout new and old locations, and prep some spots. I do the best I can, but like I said, there are hunters out there even more "maniacal" than I am.

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

This should be highlighted and font up to 8 ................. there is not more truth on Hunting.Net today than the words above.

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

Exactly! And a one to one ratio makes it much easier to tag a buck and not just because there are more but because they become more competitive and careless. Some hunting. From what I cab see the nation has done a very good job of QDM over the past 75 yrs.

Here is another reason I am for leaving things go naturaly. Sorry to bring this up, NY hunter.

New Case of Wasting Disease in N.Y. Deer

And for the guy asking questions not one of them had to do with history. Maybe I should come up with my own list. QM is not a new concept and has been used in many area's from people to plants through out time. Atomic energy is QM. Chemicals are QM. Atibiotics are QM. The woman who just died was a product of QM. None of which I want to resemble hunting.

And as far as saying these things always lead to arguments in order to be little people who dare argue the point. I'm not iimpressed by that or your atempt to size people up.

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

1. 53

2. 47

3. Yes.

4. 43 years with firearms. I was allowed to hunt small game with my bow long before my parents let me shoot a rifle or shotgun. But it's been about 20 years since the last time I hunted deer with a rifle.

5. No. As pointed out, it's farming. Nor am I in favor of trophy hunting. Natural predators mostly take the very young, very old and sick/wounded, leaving the prime, healthy animals and strengthening the herd. Trophy hunters only take prime animals. Not exactly nature's plan.

6. I would like to see more bucks, period. Slickheads running everywhere but few bucks.

7. Not really. I'd like to go out of state, or to a different part of my state, to see new woods and have new experiences, but not just for hoping to get a bigger animal.

8. Years back, I thought I had to kill something to have a successful season. I was disappointed when I had a real good stalk going and got busted just before taking the shot. Then I realized most of my charge was from the hunt itself, the meat I brought home was just icing on the cake. As long as I enjoy my time in the woods (which I get very little of, any more) I've had a successful season.

9. See #8.

10. I guess, going by your definition, I am a casual hunter. Unlike most guys who 'hardcore' any hobby, I have a life.

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

Nodog,

I assume you're talking to me.

How on earth do you take my post as an attack on either side? Also do you really disagree with me saying these things always turn into arguments? Is that not true?

Ive seen enough of these threads to KNOW that it will always turn into a p-ssing match. WHY? Wouldnt you say this one has?

Im simply asking these questions to see if there is a correlation between age, years hunting, weapons used, and thoughts on QDM.

There was NO intention of belittling anyone. Honest to GOD!
I should have added another question; What State do you hunt?

By acting like my questions are unfair, it only leads me to believe that you are afraid of answering them, because you would look like a hypocrite. Please point out the questions I posted that are "unfair".
I will gladly reword or remove them if you make a valid point.

However, I think the questions are fair and especially because NO one HAS to answer the questions, but it would be nice if at least ten people could answer the questions.

It would give us a better understanding of who opposes and who advocates QDM.

Im mostly interested in the age and number of years hunting, of hunters for or against QDM.

---Matt

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

Thanks Arthur P for answering honestly!:)

Hope others will see that my "survey" is harmless.

Despite what Nodog claims, I honestly just have a lot of interest in this subject, and like to know what makes people tick. Im not out to berate or belittle anyone for their reasons, so long as what they do is legal and ethical. Its no secret that I believe in QDM.

Its my belief that Older hunters disagree with TDM, (which is actually more accurately what we are discussing)

I also think that its because they are entering into a different phase of their hunting careers. Focusing on the enjoyment of each hunt, and every animal taken. Which is natural. Actually, I would like to ask a few of the more seasoned hunters if they went through a stage/phase in their hunting careers that would be similar to wanting QDM, or trophy hunting.

I asked these questions to see if thats the case. I also am thinking it may have to do with the region in which you hunt, and the surrounding hunting pressure and attitudes.

I believe that most of the TDM supporters will be somewhere in the "middle" stages of hunting. Having deer under their belt, but searching for more "challenge" through hunting trophies.

I also believe that young hunters with little experience will oppose qdm for the most part, unless region is more of a factor than I originally believed.

I dont think either side is "wrong" and I wonder if these "phases" are the cause of the two sides. Hopefully the questions will shed some light on this matter, and allow the two "sides" to understand each other a little better.

Have a good one---Matt

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

1. What is your age? 35

2. How many years have you been bowhunting? 15 years

3. Do you hunt with any other weapons? rarely

4. How many years have you hunted with those weapons? 20+ years

5. Are you for, or against QDM? neutral

6. Would you like to see bigger bucks in your area, if there was no work on your part?

Bigger at the cost of what ?

7. Would you travel to another state, or another woodlot in your state in search of a bigger buck?

I go to Kansas and deer hunt every year - for years now

8. What do you consider a successful hunting season?

Its different every year. Last year I wanted to tag the first legal muzzleloading bull I could with my Dad, Uncle and I wilderness hunt in Colorado. I wanted to tag a big buck in KS and a legal buck in AR with my recurve.

This year ? I have a goal of killing a big buck again in KS - a 150" + buck, with my recurve, and I want to hunt the Leatherwood wilderness are with my Dad as much as possible with a goal of killing a legal buck. I''' draw an early season rifle mule deer tag in CO and expect nothing less than a 170" buck

9. Do you harvest animals for food, or for management of the herd/habitat?

a mixture of the above + more

10. Do you consider yourself a "hardcore" hunter (scouting and map reading year round)?

Or do you consider yourself a "casual" hunter(the majority of your time is spent actually hunting, scouting and prep are limited to a month or two before and/or after the season.) [/quote]

I'm a very hard core hunter

RE: QDM
 

1. 21
2. 9
3. flintlock muzzleloader/slug gun
4. 9
5. for
6. absolutely
7. yes sir
8. lots of memories made
9. both
10. deffinetly hardcore, its all i think about.

RE: QDM
 

1. What is your age?

31

2. How many years have you been bowhunting?

17 years

3. Do you hunt with any other weapons?

In-line muzzleloader, slug gun, handgun but generally to fill my Antlerless-ONLY tags

4. How many years have you hunted with those weapons?

First ever deer was taken with a slug gun 18 years ago. Have hunted with Handgun during the special Doe-ONLY hunts for the last few seasons and have carried an In-line for the past couple.

5. Are you for, or against QDM?

Absolutely YES, why in the World would ANY sportsman with any sense be against proper deer management????

6. Would you like to see bigger bucks in your area, if there was no work on your part?

I would like to see a healty age structure and a batter balanced herd!

7. Would you travel to another state, or another woodlot in your state in search of a bigger buck?

My Goal is to hunt where mature animals live.

8. What do you consider a successful hunting season?

Several Doe tags filled and a chance to see some quality bucks wether or not a shot op was ever presented.

9. Do you harvest animals for food, or for management of the herd/habitat?

I enjoy venison but average more than enough for my own family, thus I provide others with venison as well.

10. Do you consider yourself a "hardcore" hunter (scouting and map reading year round)?
Or do you consider yourself a "casual" hunter(the majority of your time is spent actually hunting, scouting and prep are limited to a month or two before and/or after the season.)

I truly LIVE to hunt. I envolve myself deeply in every aspect of this sport from shooting to improving habitat and other projects. What else could a guy do...... Golf??? For me there are TWO seasons..... DEER season and WAITING for DEER season!!! :D

RE: QDM
 

Key word there being proper. I don't believe mandating a minimum number of points anywhere near 'proper.' What about those 6 year old spindly 4 and 6 point bucks? Outlawing shooting anything less than 4 points a side will only keep them alive, breeding and passing along those inferior genes. Seems to me that would be entirely counter productive to what you big buck guys are after. If you knuckleheads have your way, just think how many 'small' bucks people are are going to forced to pass up and will be out there competing for food and mineral resources through the winter with the guys that have true potential to become boss bucks. Too many bucks, too little food and there won't be ANY big boys. That's not even considering does. Time to engage the brains, fellas, before flapping your gums.

QDM works on private land, especially the ones that are high fenced. There, people can control the total number of deer and cull out the genetically inferior ones. On public land, it ain't gonna ever happen.

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

What do you mean by 8 to 1. 8 doe to 1 buck, 8 mature doe to 1 mature buck, antlerless to antlered? Also WHEN do you mean? All of these ratios change rapidly and by a lot during the hunting season so again WHEN in the cycle are you talking. Antlerless to antlered ratios of 4 to 1 can easily become 20 to 1 in heavily hunted ares but just before hunting season it is not mathmatically possible to have any of these ratios that high if we assume normal birth and fawn mortality rates. Just saying 8 to 1 means almost nothing. Also what if your area only has about 8 or 10 deer total per square mile. Do you still want to shoot all the doe you can when total population is so low and that particular habitat can support twice or 3 times that numer?

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

I thought QDM wasn't just about antlers. Maybe I'm missing your point Coug?

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

Arthur P, you should check previous posts of mine and you will quickly see that I'm NOT for antler restrictions BUT instead educating the average hunter on how to indentify age classes. I don't like the 4x point restriction because of the fact in MY area that would steal alot of the great antlered yearlings with true potential. Think before you post.... that's common sense stuff. Now.... on with the thread and lets debate REAL issues of QDM and herd control and why YOU stand against them??? The key work is BALANCE.... the ratios, carrying capacity, etc.

Sylvan,

Dude, you're just reaching man!!!! You are known for this crap. In a desperate attempt to avoid issues and just for the sake of arguement you throw out smoke screens. For ALL practical purposes MOST of the biological whitetail world knows what an 8:1 sex ratio is. Skip the BS and get in the game. :(

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

To back up waht ArthurP has said here is some good reading...
http://www.remington.com/NR/exeres/0...ookie%5Ftest=1