RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

If you call the way bilogists use and talk about mathmatical models to study whitetail population dynamics "crap" then I suggest you go to the library and begin your eduaction on the subject.

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

I'm simply saying contribute to the thread. Are you trying to impress us all with you self proclaimed boilogical knowledge??? :([&:]:D:D

Like I said, I'm open for a real discusion of the facts and how we can get more hunters to use their heads and start helping the herds instead of being part of the problem. It just seems that the same batch of wankers get on these thread and all they want to do is start a fight just to do it. Please don't waste everyones time..... try helping and informing someone.

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

Last I checked, this is a hunting forum where all are welcome to express their opinions and share there experiences. Also last I checked I didn't see Moderator by your name.

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

and I see that reply was as educated and informed as your views on QDM are. [>:]:(

put up or shut, get informed and contribute, stop the pissin' matches please [:'(]

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

I dont understand why we have to resort to name calling. "knuckle-heads"? I mean come on....what is this the three stooges? nyuck nyuck nyuck. Dont make me call my lawyers... Dewey, Cheatem, and Howe.

Its quite obvious that some people will always be against QDM, and some people will always be for it. To argue, and name call is silly though.

In my opinion, hunters oppossing QDM aren't understanding it well enough, and are not giving it a fair chance. Most supporters of QDM, do NOT support antler restrictions. Not only for the reason you mentioned, but because of the fact that, it still allows the young bucks with better genes to be taken.

Concerns of 6 year old 4 pointers on public lands are quite unfounded though. The majority of bucks on public land do not survive past their 2nd year of life. Though I cant find the numbers, I recall that 1.5 year old bucks consist of upwards of 90% , the total buck harvest.

So honestly now, how many 6 year old bucks are running around the woodlots? I believe studies have shown the number is close to 1% of the total herd in the average pressured hunting area.

It baffles me how hunters with no concern for the size of antlers though, worry about the older bucks eating all the forage, and reducing the size of the younger deers antler potential. ???

QDM is not TDM!
QDM is simply the best way to manage deer herds to a socially and environmentally acceptable level. To argue with that, is to argue science. Shooting less young bucks, and more does balances out the herd more evenly. The overharvesting of young bucks, and bucks in general has gone on for MANY years. To see an increase in the health and balance of the deer herds, we NEED to harvest more does, and less bucks. States nationwide are seeing the benefits of QDM and are incorporating it into their harvest strategies.

I can see how most hunters would have a problem with practicing TDM (trophy deer management) as it requires a lot of work, and tons of restraint on the hunters part. Planting food plots, and passing bucks as old as 4.5. But to oppose QDM, is to say you dont care about the future of our deer herds and habitat. Only caring about the "NOW" and what we can shoot "NOW". That is selfish in my eyes.

Finally, to say that qdm is "raising" deer as if its a deer farm is rediculous. The comparison is so silly I had to laugh for a good five minutes, and then wipe the tears of laughter away before writing this. Why let anything reach its potential then? Why strive for any kind of progress? Lets cut down the saplings before they get to be big trees, blocking the sunlight, and reducing forage. Why not shoot all the bucks when they are button bucks? I dont want to "RAISE" them. I might as well just stop working out now too, I wouldnt want to RAISE muscles, or why shoot my bow, I dont want to RAISE my level of accuracy. Heck, I shouldnt try to learn anything either, I dont want to RAISE my IQ. Infact lets get rid of the schools...We are RAISING our children to be smarter.
Its so silly.....I hope you were kidding.

QDM is the way of the future, it is not an idea based soley on opinions. It is based on scientific facts, facts that allow us to reach the most balanced herd we can. It is the best way to manage the deer herds, their habitat, and the health of surrounding wildlife populations. Allowing hunters to benefit from the larger, healthier deer, and the landowners and motorists to benefit from the decreased amount of deer.

By the way, THANKS to ALL who have answered my questions so far. I think it is leaning towards my original beliefs, that older hunters, either more set in their ways, or in a different phase of their hunting careers are more likely to oppose QDM than hunters in their middle years of hunting.

Nothing wrong with that, and it makes sense. I just wonder if the younger hunters, who now want QDM and larger bucks, will someday cross over to oppose it. Any thoughts on that? Did anyone who has been hunting for many years ever want bigger bucks, or were you always fulfilled through merely the hunt?

Have a good one---Matt

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

1. What is your age? 53
2. How many years have you been bowhunting? 30+ with bow, 40+ all others.

3. Do you hunt with any other weapons? Rifle, shotgun, mz

4. How many years have you hunted with those weapons? 40+ rifle, 30+shotgun, only a few years with mz.

5. Are you for, or against QDM? I am not against QDM per say but I oppose any mandatory state run enforcement of antler restriction. I don't think a "trophy" mentality is good for the sport.

6. Would you like to see bigger bucks in your area, if there was no work on your part? Certainly, but like somebody else said at what cost?

7. Would you travel to another state, or another woodlot in your state in search of a bigger buck? No. I'm happy just hunting on my own land. I take a pretty nice buck now and then but I'm not driven by antlers.

8. What do you consider a successful hunting season? Just being there.

9. Do you harvest animals for food, or for management of the herd/habitat? I just love to hunt. Everything else is a bonus.

10. Do you consider yourself a "hardcore" hunter (scouting and map reading year round)?
Or do you consider yourself a "casual" hunter(the majority of your time is spent actually hunting, scouting and prep are limited to a month or two before and/or after the season.) Pretty hard core especially now. I recently retired and can now spend all the time I want in the woods.

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

I believe there are alternatives to QDM that may better accomplish the goals. Limiting the total buck harvest for example is a method that increases the chances of all age class bucks to advance another year not just the 1 1/2 year olds. In other words regulate buck harvest just like the doe harvest. You can take any size buck IF you have a permit to do so. This method has a better chance of increasing the true trophy potential of the 4 1/2 and 5 1/2 year olds. Problem is its been tradition for so long, a lot of hunters won't accept the possibility of being denied a buck tag.

For those that didn't read the article I posted, some biologists are beginning to believe that a random but limited taking of buck is better than the selective buck harvest that QDM adovacates for improving overall quality and age distribution.

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

I guess I don't understand something.

I live in Maine. Other than the amount of antlerless permits given each year, our state does not have any other control. Our deer herd is growing every year, despite hunters shooting more deer than yearbefore, (Usually) We have large deer, bucks, that have large bodies and big antlers, killed on a regular basis.

So, without QDM, why is it working here?

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

Seems to work in Ohio too. 4th in the nation for Pope & Young, lots of deer and lots of hunters yet no AR.

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

yep, I used to live in Ohio, maybe God has a better plan than the biologists.

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

Personally, I think AR is more productive in the Southern states that have extremely high bag limits and 4 month deer seasons. For instance, in Mississippi you can kill 3 bucks and 5 does. In Alabama you can kill a deer a day everyday of the season. Most of the other states follow these same liberal bag limits.

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

Double Creek, do many hunters take that many deer in the south? I take 2 or 3 at the most here in NY though I can leagally take more. I can't imagine anyone wanting 8 or 10 in a season. Even if you had a pretty big family would you use that much meat? I don't have anything against it, I'm just curious.

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

Double creek hit the nail on the head.

In areas where they refuse to limit the amount of buck tags, or are too liberal in the amount given, they would be better suited to add AR.

However AR is not a good choice if QDM is an option. Basically AR is a band-aid, or a way of FORCING QDM on unwilling hunters. Though its not TRUE QDM.

To answer the comments about certain states; States like Maine can consistantly produce larger bucks because of the fact that the land is so vast, and the hunting pressure is nill compared to the land. Besides, Maine is not really a top producer when it comes to big bucks. That state is a bad example.

The Midwest on the other hand is a good example! Its also no secret that the Midwest is a more fertile land, consisting of better nutrients than most other regions. A 2.5 year old buck from the Midwest is normally quite a bit larger than a 2.5yr old buck from another region. This causes two things to happen. Hunters are more apt to come across a larger buck, thereby changing the attitude of most hunters, causing them to pass the younger bucks, knowing there are bigger bucks out there. Also the young bucks that are harvested, are already bigger to begin with.

I cant even begin to imagine how gigantic the bucks could become if all the hunters out in the Midwest region passed younger bucks, harvested their share of does, and culled any truly inferior bucks, known to be older than 4.5-5.5.

Bigger bucks arent exclusive to those areas though. The recipe just more easily exists in those areas. In areas such as NJ, NY, PA etc. Hunter density is much higher, and the nutrients to grow 300" monsters isnt there. However, if you look through the record books, 200" monsters are possible. They just need age on them to get there. To let them reach this potential, we all have to pass the younger bucks. A buck is not considered mature until it is 3.5 years old. However its skeletal, and muscular potential wont be reached until its 5th year. Furthermore a buck wont reach maximum antler potential till its 6th year. QDM isnt about waiting till a buck is 6.5 to harvest it. That would be TDM. QDM requires hunters to pass 1.5 year old bucks, the same bucks which have the highest vehicle mortality rate. Thus allowing more 1.5 year old bucks to survive to 2.5. They will be one year "smarter", and more apt to survive to 3.5. This trend continues on, allowing more bucks to reach their maximum potential. Thereby balancing the herd.

There is no cost to practice QDM, simply use your better judgement when harvesting deer. Harvest the recommended number of does and the correct number and approximate age of bucks.

Though some claim it will be much easier to harvest large bucks, the challenge will still be there, these deer arent going to lose their survival skills just because there are more of them. However the probability of seeing them will rise. Also tactics such as calling and scents will work more readily, because the ratio of bucks to does will be more in balance. This should increase the enjoyment level for all hunters.

Whether you focus on enjoying the outdoors, large antlers, or eating venison, you will benefit from QDM. There's something in it for EVERYONE!!!

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

Everything I've read indicates that the mortality rate of adult male deer increases with age, it doesn't lower. The odds of a 4 1/2 year old getting to 5 1/2 is lower than a 2 1/2 year old getting to 3 1/2. As the get very old their chances of getting older drop off even faster.

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

http://www.il-st-acad-sci.org/transactions/PDF/8907.pdf#search='buck%20mortality%20rates'
http://wildlife.tamu.edu/publications/A053.PDF#search='buck%20mortality%20rates'

Here are a couple more pretty good studies. Actually the 1st one indicates that adult male vulnerability to harvest goes down with age but note also that this is not a result but rather an input to the modeling.

A word of caution to IL-Cornfed - These studies contain talk of pre and post season doe:buck ratios as well as talk of several different types of ratios like adult and perceived so you probably won't enjoy them.

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

Mattiac,
Glad you think that Maine is a bad example and that we don't have big bucks. Please tell that to all those Massachusettes hunters that come flocking up here every November.

So those bucks that tip the scales at 250 and bigger,..........they aren't big?? I see several every year at the tagging station, jjust in my little town.

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

One question I would like to ask all of you Q.D.M. people.
Do you own land, lease land , hunt anothers private land or do you hunt public land?
And how many acres do you have?

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

1. 21 years old

2. 7 years

3. yes

4. 9 years

5. For QDM

6. Yes

7. No

8. Being able to hunt alot!

9. Both

10. Hardcore.

Yes, I like big antlers, but it seems that way too many guys think that is all that QDM is about! QDM is about balanceing the buck to doe ratio, establishing a good age bracket, creating good habitat and forage for deer, ect....

Some people take pride in GIVING BACK! I feel that it is my obligation to give back to the deer herd considering I take from that same deer herd each and every year! I take pride in the fact that I help the deer herd wether by planting food plots, creating a good habitat, or doing my part to balance the numbers. Sure, larger racks come from this, but they are just an added bonus! I get the real joy from seeing healthier deer and a better habitat which also helps all other animals in the woods!

I love hearing the comments about people planting food plots. "Its un-natural" "Nothing like shooting pet deer off of a the golf course" blah blah blah.... Funny thing is that people watch these hunting shows and fall into a trap thinking that the food plots on t.v. are what happens when someone plants a food plot on their property! Sorry to burst your bubble, but a food plot won't bring in hundreds of deer during mid-day! It is just another "crop" field that the deer typically visit late in the evening or after dark. It doesn't pop 150" racks onto those bucks, it does help them get the nutrition that they need to LIVE! It makes it easier on the deer during the winter, ect.

I am not going to shove QDM down everybody's throats, but I will try to educate as many people as I can about what QDM is really about!

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

Unfortunately Buck Magnet I agree with you. That is one reason I said erlier that I am not against QDM "per say" but in practice I am. Too many think of it as no more than a ticket to a better chance of getting a trophy buck and they have jumped on that band wagon. They will pay lip service to the "giving back" part that you talked about (btw that's a great attitude for such a young fellow) but when it comes to actually doing anything about it they are not to be found. You can spot them a mile away. They will try to talk about deer management but it is clear they haven't read anything about it, the don't understand even simple management concepts and are only paroting what the have heard. It seems to me that in practice QDM winds up manifesting itself primarily in the form of AR which of course by itself is not QDM. If everyone had your attitude I'd be more inclined to support QDM but I fear that isn't the majority in the QDM movement.

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

Sylvan, those are EXACTLY the reasons I would rather put my faith in the F&G biologists to know their job and set the seasons/limit CORRECTLY. I do not have those answers, the data to get those answers or the education to make sense of the data. F&G biologists DO. They should set the season, then we as stuards of the herd, do what is required by the biologists for the HEALTH OF THE OVERALL DEER HERD. The overall health should come first, that is what QDM is about, somehow it gets mutated into monster bucks.

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

you crazy people


Arkansas "QDM" is just 3 points on one side to be legal.

Thats it.

And the first couple of years it was passed they neglected to factor in that if people couldn't shoot spikes/forkhorns for meat they'd shoot does for meat and they decimated our deer herds. Up to 70% decline in some areas.

We're back on track now, no more than 3 deer per year to be taken.

But ya'll know as well as I do a good 1 1/2 year old with good food will have a good chance at being a 4-6 point deer. Only the inferior genetics 1.5 year olds will have spikes and dink ranks (assuming the food supply is there)

Right ?


Overall we're seeing better bucks, but still gettin over the huge blunder by the G&F and the deer decline. Overall I'm okay with the 3 point rule. If not .......... I'll shoot the spike/forkhorn and tag it online and lie just like everyone else does [:@]

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

I think you should be very carefull here. Game commisions in MANY states are controlled POLITICALLY not by professional wildlife biologists. Here in NY the DEC makes no bones about AR being experimented with in Ulster and Sullivan counties as a direct result of hunter pressure to do so. All you have to do is go to a few meetings to find out that they are interested in what they term "hunter satisfaction" more than the health of the deer herd. Game commisions need to sell hunting licenses and keep their politician supervisors happy. So when the hunters are pushing for AR (not QDM) so they can get their big buck and the insurance companies are pushing the politicians to reduce the deer numbers, what do you think the priority is for the health of the deer? No, we can't just sit back and be ignorant of how game management works. That's a cop out. There is tons of literature available and anybody with average intellegence can read and understand it.

BTW the person that you quoted about the 8:1 ratio didn't have the answer either. He clearly hadn't read a thing about it but that didn't stop him from throwing the numbers around like he did know and that's part of the problem. When I tried to do some "education" regarding what doe/buck ratios really mean I was called a "wanker".

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

The above quote is from the first link that Sylvan posted.

I agree with this conclusion. It is basically saying that you can not rely soley on yearling buck harvests to tell you the number of bucks in your population. TRUE. It is also saying that you need hunters to be selective in the bucks they harvest to obtain a more balanced herd, with more trophy class animals. TRUE.

The other mortality rate link wouldnt open, so I cant comment on it.

What you have posted here is in argument against QDM?

I only ask because it clearly shows that a balanced herd will produce larger healthier deer. Unless Im mistaken, thats what QDM is all about. Antler restrictions, are clearly not the way to produce "trophy class" deer, I wont argue that. I also wont argue that basing models off of yearling harvest percentages is an inaccurate measure of age structure.

I also have to point out that you acknowledge and cite literature from a fish and wildlife division, and then turn around and state that most divisions are politically driven. So should we use the data that our biologists give us, or dismiss it as political heresay?

Having worked closely and having spoken with members of the division of F&W in NJ, I can guarantee you that there is NO "political" persuasion in their data. The research they do is based soley on science. However, you are correct in the other sense. Their job is not only to manage deer herds to the proper carrying capacities of the habitat, but more importantly to manage the herd to an acceptable social capacity. If this number is lower than the carrying capacity, so be it, we will have to reduce the numbers to the social limit. That is where the politics come in, keeping their jobs, and the sport of hunting alive.

You can rely on your states wildlife biologists to provide you with sound, rather accurate, scientific data though.

To put it in simpler terms; Its very difficult for the divisions to please everyone.

The majority of citizens want less deer.

The majority of hunters want more deer.

The carrying capacity of the land can only sustain a certain number as well.

How do you go about making everyone happy then?

First you find out what the social limit is, next figure out the carrying capacity of the land. Take the lower of those two numbers, and set it as your goal. Hunters are left out of the picture for the most part due to the fact, we are simply managers of the herd. Sheer numbers of deer are not accepted by the people, nor can they be sustained by the habitat. However as mentioned hunter numbers will decline if our goals arent met either.

Yes it seems unfair in most cases, we pay to enjoy hunting, yet the public takes priority over us. This is why I favor QDM. If we cant have sheer numbers of deer, then we might as well have the best quality deer we can have. With a more selective buck harvest, and the proper amount of does removed from the herd, we can further balance the age structure, and sex ratios of the deer. This provides the most fair outcome for everyone, from the public to the hunters, to the deer and surrounding wildlife.

Throw the antler restrictions out the window! If we as hunters want to keep the sport alive, we either have to indiscriminately harvest as many deer as we can to keep deer at socially acceptable numbers. Focusing on shooting bucks, like most hunters want, and NOT focusing on the quality of the deer left in the herd.

OR we can become selective in the harvesting of young bucks, and increase our doe harvests. Thereby keeping the herds at a level that is acceptable to the general public, but also increasing the quality of our deer. Eventually seeing and having more opportunities at larger bucks.

I choose the latter management plan, because it allows us to reap some benefits.



To answer bawana's question; I am a QDM supporter, I hunt 1000s of acres.....ALL PUBLIC. I cant plant food plots, or keep others from harvesting young bucks because its all state land. Yet I still plug along, trying to convince the others in my area, that if they want to see bigger bucks, which all of them do, they need to pass the young bucks. We are over-run with does, and I do my part every year to take at least one doe, many years taking two or three. I also pass any buck that I field-age at less than 3.5, because of this I havent harvested a buck in the past six years. However, due to my efforts, I have already begun to see a rise in the quality of the bucks in a few of the areas I hunt. This past year I passed approximately 15 slam dunk shots on young bucks <2.5. I also saw three bucks that were p&y, one of which I recognized as a buck I had passed two years ago, as a basket rack eight point. He was now a very VERY large ten point. Unfortunately I also had the misfortune of losing the second largest buck I have ever shot. Till this year, I hadnt drawn back on a buck in about four years. People can not claim I don't have self-discipline. I think most the hunters pushing for QDM are public land hunters. If I owned 100 acres of my own, I could care less what the others did. I would live in my own little hog heaven. We are pushing for this change in attitude, called QDM, so that we, actually ALL hunters can benefit. Like I said before, we will never be allowed to manage for sheer numbers of deer! So WHY NOT manage for QUALITY?!!??!?!?!

Have a good one---Matt:)

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

This was actually why I posted this link for you. I was responding to what you said indicating that mortality rates go down with the age of buck. The data in this link shows that it does not.

Actually it doesn't say you NEED to. Need is a subjective value judgement. The modeling was simply showing the effects of simulated selected harvest. There are other ways to accomplish the same goals without selective harvest.

Absolutely not. Like I have said, I am not against proper QDM, I am against what most QDM advocates turn it into. I think the majority of QDM advocates are just on a big buck band wagon and know little of what QDM is. I strongly object to the big buck mentality and I believe it is harmful to the sport. I have written extensivley on this. See an old thread called "Passing the buck" if you want to know more of what I think.

That does seem a bit silly but I do believe the work the biologists produce is valid and probably not influenced by politics. My point however, was that in many states (NY is one) the decisions all must go through the political machine before they can be put into practice. That is simply a fact and there is no question in my mind that politicians are influenced by "popular" opinion more than they are by what the biologists that work for them think. The biologists can only make recomendations. Here in NY for example we have been trying to get the age for hunting lowered. We are currently the highest starting age in the country. The DEC is all for it but it has been stopped in Albany several times now. The politicians are too influenced by the NY city vote.
AR is not the only way, there are other alternatives that de emphisize the trophy mentality and do a better job of expanding the age structure and eliminating the "old scragly buck" contaminating the gene pool problem. Limiting the buck harvest is a better way. But even the most diehard QDMers don't want to hear it. They claim to be for a healtheir herd which limited buck harvest should by their own definition of healthier should achieve in a better way but they don't want to take a chance on being denied a buck tag for a seaon or 2.

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

Sylvan, I dont really see any disagreements in your thoughts and mine. You seem to be on the side of QDM. And in agreement with me...

I just wanted to clear up a few things though.

Its hard to discuss the mortality rate, if we arent using the same model. The link to mortality rates that you posted was no good. Perhaps you can post it again, Im interested in reading it.

I also think you are misunderstanding some of what I said. I never said that the buck mortality rate didnt increase as bucks got older. Though, if I recall correctly, I believe it doesnt begin to increase naturally until a buck reaches the age of seven. Also, a study I read a few years back, stated that the majority of roadkilled deer are 1.5 year old bucks. Thats what I was getting at in my original post.

Its also safe to say that the mortality that hunting causes decreases as a buck grows older. There is no arguing that as a buck survives a few hunting seasons, he learns to avoid hunters. Many bucks that make it through several years of hunting, learn to avoid humans alltogether, and die of old age, predetation, or starvation due to worn teeth, and/or limited mobility.

As I said before, I agree that AR is not the way to go.

I also agree with you on limited buck harvests. However, I think the benefits seen would be accomplished faster if there was a trend toward letting the younger bucks walk as well. Do you agree?

I believe far too many hunters put too much emphasis on killing a buck. I honestly think that they feel it is more macho to harvest a buck. Thinking they will earn more respect for harvesting a deer with antlers on its head.

I have less respect for someone who harvests several bucks a year, or one small buck a year, than someone who toils away, killing does, and evening out the herd balance, passing young bucks in hopes that they will live to grow another year. I also dont have much respect for a hunter who buys trophies. Having someone else do the work for you is not something I could bring myself to do.

Perhaps my lack of respect is unfounded, but I think you would agree with me, that these attitudes are selfish and driven by the urge for antlers.

Lets use two opposite types of hunter for example;

Hunter A shoots two small bucks a year, never allowing the bucks to reach full potential, or trying to up the bar and seek more challenge by pursuing smarter, mature bucks. He shoots these bucks to prove that he can shoot bucks. Discarding the dink antlers into an evergrowing pile of "bone" thats collecting dust. Sure he eats the meat, but he could have easily replaced one, if not both bucks with a doe(s), and eaten venison just the same. Taking a femal deer also removes the future deer it would have produced. Along with allowing the bucks he shot to live and increase their potential.

Hunter B climbs aboard a plane with all of his top of the line eqiupment, pays $2500 to a guide who puts him infront of the largest bucks the Midwest can grow. The guide tells him to pass bucks that would otherwise make him poo in his pants, and explains which buck to harvest, and when and where he normally comes from. The hunter shoots and mounts this monarch. Eating the meat and getting all the use out of it.

Both of these hunters are similar in the fact that they are driven by the antlers. Eating venison was not a driving force in either one of their decisions. The "prestige" they think that shooting a buck brings drives them to harvest as many or as large of a buck as they possibly can.

What is the purpose of Hunter A shooting a small buck, just to saw the antlers off of its head, and discard the rack in a cardboard box? There isnt any purpose, its pointless, and selfish.

On the other hand, whats the significance in mounting a giant buck that hunter B shot because of someone elses know-how? There is no great task accomplished. Hunter B didnt pass bucks for years to put himself infront of a larger deer, he didnt learn the habits or improve the herd. He paid to kill a big buck. Pointless.....and lacking purpose. And unless he hunts and manages his home states deer herd, its also selfish.


Now lets look at Hunter C. Hes like most of us. He doesnt have the BEST equipment, but its not shabby. He hunts public lands, having to share it with several others. He does his part to better the herd and habitat by taking a few does. He lays off the immature bucks he sees, because he knows that if given another year, they will further near their potential. He doesnt have to take a buck every year to prove his skills. His skills and respect for the animal are proven everytime he comes home empty handed, having had the opportunity to take immature deer. But having the self-restraint to not shoot.

I have little respect for Hunters A and B.....but I have the utmost respect for Hunter C. Even if he NEVER harvests a buck, or never harvests a state record, I will know that he wasnt driven by antlers, or so selfish he took more game than he needed just to prove his manhood.


While QDM supporters cant claim that antlers arent part of the driving force, neither can hunters not wanting QDM. If opposers could care less about the antlers, why worry about harvesting bucks? Why not just shoot does?

Whether a hunter needs one or two bucks a year to prove their success, or they need to shoot the largest buck in the woods, they still want ANTLERS.

The truth is, ANTLERS will ALWAYS be somewhat of a driving force for hunters, its only natural.

So why not let them grow bigger?

Have a good one---Matt:)

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

Not true. I mean, we all would love to shoot a 200" buck ........ but thats pipe dreams. I hunt for the HUNT, not for specific antler sizes (for the most part)

A place that has dozens of 150" bucks makes them equivalent to a spike/forkhorn IMO. In QDM places that have huge bucks ........ it water down what a trophy. I mean, some places you'd pass on a 175-180 buck because the "ranch" is full of thoose and you're looking for a 200" + rack.

What aint right man - thats hunting for the wrong reasons IMO

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

Data, Why do you go to Kanas to hunt??

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

I guess my point is that times change and with todays QDM the big rack will be taken more often. So just like the difficulty of sports records change with the times,they have less meaning from generation to generation (unless you raise the bar accordinly) because it's not apples to apples. So big racks don't impress me like they did 20 years ago. I don't care how the state runs it's deer herd,I play the game the same as I ever did. I don't like to see braggin'...do what you do quitely and act like you've been there before. To me,deer hunting is done behind the scenes (alone) and if you need others to praise your success your doing it (hunting) for the wrong reasons.

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

Hey Matt go easy or you are going to need rotator cuff surgury from all that patting yourself on the back. Unlike you I hunt my own 150 acre hog heavan. Unlike you I have spent the last 15 years paying for it. That means I can plant food plots ,I can harvest timber And I can keep doe slayers like yourself out. I haven't ask for neither do I want any resepct from you.You seem easly led so follow the path you are on,But the private land that you drive buy on your way to the states property is not posted buy nonhunters it is posted by people that spend their lives in those woods who do hunt deer some of us even buck hunt.Your hatred for the evil does has driven you to lose all that hunting is about.It is about time in the woods its family and it is about shooting deer,not just does.You will one day realize that your one size fits all deer management plan will not work.
P.S. I havn't needed to shoot a doe for over twenty years. I am a buck hunter!!!!!!!!

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

Hey, you asked a question, and I was just telling you about me.....nothing to pat myself on the back for. Unless you want to talk about the restraint.

I was just trying to get the point across, that you CAN do this on public land, and I wasnt trying to belittle you in the process.

However now that you have belittled me, I now know to ignore you.

What state do you live in that you dont need to harvest any does?

You must be blessed with a herd that regulates itself. Do the does jump off of mountain sides after a few years of life, so as to open some space for the younger deer?

YOU HAVE to KILL SOME DOES!!!!!!

What would happen if everyone was selfish like you?

Infact you know what, next year Im gonna hunt like you, Im gonna drag home six small bucks, cause thats the limit around here. Ill eat them, and throw their piddly little dink racks in my pile of shed antlers.

Of course I will have to shoot three does to do so, because my area is EARN-A-BUCK......I guess since Im a doe hater, I will just discard of them after tagging them in.....sounds like something you would do. I wont need the meat, cause I'll have all those tasty tiny bucks.....MMMMmmmmmmmmm.

Management? What the h-ll is that??? Who gives a rats a-- about management.....I want to kill bucks. I dont care how big they are, I just want to kill em. Thats what I ENJOY....I ENJOY BEING OUT IN THE WOODS.....and taking home whatever BUCK I can......Makes me feel better about myself.

Its a shame someone as naive as you owns sole rights to 150 acres, Im sure its being piss-poorly managed. Sad....


Buck only hunter...hahaha...wake up and climb out of the cave buddy!

Unless your state is still in the stoneage and doesnt allow any doe harvests......but I doubt that.

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

By the way,

Thank you to Datamax, and BawanaJim!
They have both proven it IS about the antlers.

They may not care what size they are.....BUT THATS WHAT THEY WANT.......the ANTLERS!!!!

Like I said antlers will always be SOMEWHAT of a driving force, its only natural. Since the dawn of time, man has been enamored by antlers to some extent.

Of course it is also about enjoying yourself, and spending time with friends and family discussing hunting. And its also about spending time in the woods and learning about nature. When we argue like this, we almost lose sight of that.

But to say thats THE ONLY reason you hunt, is a lie. If you're not lying, then go buy a camera, and take pictures of the deer. You can still spend time in the woods, and with friends, and you will likely learn more about the various wildlife.

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

I have the rights because I got out of bed went to school and earned it,try it you might like it. You do seem stuck on these dink bucks though ,maybe if you wern't draging out all those fine eating does you could spend some time buck hunting. I do live in North west P.A. If you would like to stop and see how poorly I manage my land give me a call I'm in the book. Heres one of those dinks we hunt.[:@]By the way he is eating in one of my poorly managed food plots.

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

that's why I listen to the F&G biologists in NH, not the F&G commission. I go to the hearings, i talk with the biologists to get the real info, then try and use this at the hearings against the commission suggestions if appropriate.

Never said "blind faith" just may naive a bit [8D]

Our biologists have been doing things recently to REDUCE our deer kill in most of the state, the commission usually STARTS with those recommendations at the hearings then gets some of them changed. Two recent issues: doe permits rather than "doe days" and changing muzzleloader to bucks only in many areas came from F&G biologists, then were eventually changed by the commission.

--Bob

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

Ive hunted out in Clearfield County PA for several seasons. Gary Alt really helped turn that around. The doe herd is finally in check out there, and now everyone is complaining there arent enough deer. Like I said, its a viscious cycle.

Anyway though. So you HONESTLY only shoot bucks?

WHY?

Why not harvest a doe to help ease the habitat burden as well?

Do you prefer for the other hunters to do your dirty work?

Whether you like it or not, the doe herd must be managed as well. They dont manage themselves.

By the way, I did wake up and go to school, earned one of them little degrees too....Infact I went and taught at a school. Left that job and now Im becoming a police officer. So dont think you're any better than me.
Have you ever considered the cost of living may be different where you are, compared to where I am? And the cost of buying or leasing acreage around here is astronomical.

I happen to know its A LOT cheaper where you are. Maybe someday I'll move out there, and buy up a whole bunch of land. Im looking forward to the future. I wont have to lease, I will OWN the land. I will also manage it properly, allowing the proper amount of does to be taken, and passing bucks under 5.5 years old. I guess Ill have to save up for fences or something though....not to keep the deer in, but to keep jealous hunters like you out.

By the way, not to berate the buck and your efforts, but that buck is pretty average for out in the north western region of PA. My buddy hunts near Erie every once in a while, and hes taken quite a few just like him on state land.....

So imagine how big he would get if you not only planted crops, but you passed him next year, and shot a doe instead. He'd be huge!!!

Arguing about antlers, gotta love it.

But I guess no one cares about the antlers!:eek:

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

bawanajim - thats a great deer in my area.


In a QDM it'd be average and I wouldn't shoot it



In other words, you've taken an enviroment and altered it so much that what use to be GREAT deer are now average deer.

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

I agree with you in that QDM can be an effective management tool however like I have said many times, although I am not against it per say I am also not an advocate. Like anything, there are plusses and minuses. IMO with regard to QDM the minuses outweigh the pluses. It's a value judgement of course and I wouldn't try to say that my values are better but I do think that they are valid.

My biggest problem with QDM is the movement that is associated with it. I might draw an analogy with socialism. In its purest form it can be a great thing, almost a utopia, but in practice it winds up corrupt and destructive to the same people it sets out to help. Like socialists QDMers assume they know what is best for everyone. Your little parable of hunters A-C is an example. You've taken the time to lay out what type of hunters to respect and those that don't deserve respect even though all of them are hunting legaly. It's really hard for me not to get angry with such arrogance. Hunters go into the woods for a whole lot of different reasons. QDMers assume their reasons are the only valid ones and if you don't share them you are "part of the problem". I think the problem is too much emphasis on big racks and too much divisiveness among hunters. Unfortunately the QDM movement is guilty of promoting both.

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RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

Like hunting for your own reasons?;)

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

Okay ................. I'l be shooting this buck in AR the first shot I get this fall

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

Already been doing that, for many years now. I just don't want any stupid laws interferring with me doing what I know is right.