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RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

I agree with that 100%

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

Just to be clear, in your area, what do you consider the best method of deer management?

Without argument, simply tell us the state you live in, and what you think needs to be done for you to be a happy hunter. PLEASE NO ARGUING!

I'll go first so you have an idea as to what I mean;

I think NJ is on the right track for deer management. We have been over-populated in most zones with far too many does. Since the state has incorporated Earn-a-buck in many of these zones, I have seen a reduction in the amount of does. The habitat has bounced back to an extent, and other wildlife is starting to thrive. However, there are a few areas in which there are still too many does, we need to formulate a plan to further reduce the does in these areas. Browse in these areas is severely depleted, and may need help to regenerate.

The bucks in NJ need to be protected by the amount hunters are allowed to harvest. Currently a hunter utilizing all the available tags can kill 6 bucks per year. This number is far too high. To see an increase in the size and age of bucks we should limit the number to 3, if using all weapons/seasons. Or perhaps one firearm buck tag, and one archery buck tag.

Harvests need to be reduced in a few select areas, this should include does. Areas such as the extreme North (zone 1) need this reduction in harvests.

Other areas such as the urban areas need a special season and approach to managing the ever-growing, overpopulated number of deer. We need to reduce the size of safety zones, and possibly incorporate a special urban bowhunting season. The state should gain access and permission for specially licensed hunters to these areas. Allowing them to harvest the excess deer.

Its my belief that the NJ management plan has been on the right track for several years now. However, these minor changes would help us to manage the herd even better. Allowing hunters the opportunity at fewer bucks, but eventually more quality bucks. While balancing the herd, and reducing it to numbers suitable for the habitat, and residents surrounded by the abundant amount of deer, through a more aggressive urban approach at doe harvests.

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

I live in southern lower Michigan, Jackson county to be exact. Our county is number 2 in trophy entries for the state. We have a 2 buck limit combined,bow or gun. Your 2 buck has to have 4 points on one side and I don't believe it works for QDM. We get alot of hunting pressure durnng the seasons. I share the land I hunt with 6 to 8 people and QDM is not on there agenda. I saw 6-1 1/2 bucks, 5 I beleive I could have taken and one was shot by someone else. That would leave 4 unknowens for next year. Our bow season is 90+ days so being paitence is not so hard. I can shoot does at just about an unlimited pace but usualy only take 1 or 2 in the late season. I would not want to impose my beleifs on someone for QDM or have a law to dictate it. When you go fishing you have limits on how many fish you can keep and a "size limit" but you never here anything about "QFM". I beleive it's common sense.

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

Some of you feel you have to many deer where you live ,fine shoot them.Some of us think there is room for more deer .My property was two farms I bought the first after the lawyer for the estate had the timber cut . and no one wanted to clean up the mess. The second neighbor died and I bought his land that was boardering mine.This year a three million dollar sewer project went in on this land property value has gone up & so have the taxes.If I did not own this land it would be a housing project.
With that in mind I will or will not shoot what I want.The food plots I plant now are where the old timers grew their crops,I do the same.The differance is I don't harvest mine for resale, I make the carrying capacty of my land higher rather than lowering the deer numbers.To each there own my neighbors reap the benefits and if they want to slay a doe its their land and they do what they want. Because you decided to hunt state land do not bring your public beliefs to my private land.If you want to kill does ,kill does ,if can't kill bucks then don't,but don't force your beliefs on all others.
Just another dink!
And is about the horns[:@]

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

BawanaJim, I just dont understand you.

I guess you and I can discuss it in the waiting room when we are getting the rotator cuff surgery.

You seem to place yourself on a pedestal, and pat your own back alot too. Because you own land to hunt, this some how makes you a more caring steward of the resource.

I guess because I hunt state land, Im an uncaring slob, who cant harvest a deer too. Right, isnt that what your getting at with your snide comments?

Yet, its you who refuses to listen to sound management plans that your state is pushing for. You claim there is NO need to shoot does on your property. How can this be? You obviously know more about deer research and biology than the actual biologists then. Right?

Im not saying you have to shoot 10 does a year, or even 1. But dont you realize it would help your land, and your efforts to harvest a doe or two per year. If doe numbers are EXTREMELY low, stop harvesting them. But I cant forsee them being dangerously low if you havent harvested them in 20 years.

I also dont understand you on the fact that you claim its NOT about the antlers, yet you will ONLY shoot bucks. That makes about as much sense as peeing before you pull your willie out. I think that would be the definition of contradiction in the dictionary.

I admit, I want to shoot bigger bucks. The way I think my state can go about providing them for ALL the hunters, is by limiting the amount of buck tags. There is absolutely NO need for more than three buck tags a year. Especially not when we have the amount of does available for harvest that we do. I also think they should push for hunters who have been successful in taking a buck or two to try and hold off for older more mature, and larger bucks. This will increase the probablity of seeing and shooting larger deer.

Tell me how that plan negatively effects YOU?

It doesnt. So tell us about your state and what you would do to make it better.

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

This is a value jugement. You are saying that what matters is the harvesting of big bucks. It may be to you but it isn't the primary motivation for everyone. I have no problem limiting the number of buck a hunter is allowed to take but as soon as you bring a trophy hunting mentality into it I object. I don't want to teach our young hunters that big racks is what hunting is all about. There is a lot more to value in the sport and focusing on antlers IMO detracts from them. I have taken several trophy buck in my 40 some years of deer hunting and had I taken a few more it wouldn't have enhanced the experience at all. In the remaining years I have, if I take a couple more trophies thats great, if not that's fine too because that is not what draws me back year after year.

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

Sylvan, I agree with you more than you know.

I would NEVER want to force the hunters to pass bucks that would make them happy.

But I dont think there is any harm in trying to persuade guys not to shoot small bucks.

Shoot whatever you like though, but just remember, deer are a resource for all to enjoy. Harvesting bucks for no other reason than to harvest a buck is just as wrong. Its selfishly stealing from the hunters who want to shoot bigger bucks. Not only that, but its still putting the emphasis on the antlers. I thought that was pretty clear.

If antlers dont matter at all...we should all shoot does. You could manage herds just as well, if not better by taking does, and only does. Bucks have a higher mortality rate in the wild, even without hunting pressures than that of does. So lets all just kill does.

Like people always say, you cant eat the horns, so dont shoot any bucks. Leave them to survive. I would love to see bucks running around with magnificent antlers, even if I couldnt harvest them. God what a rush that would be. Im gonna propose that change to my states division and see what they say.

DONT KILL BUCKS!!!! KILL DOES!!!!!! We dont want it to be about the ANTLERS anymore!!!!!!

Never again, could anyone be told they are hunting for the wrong reasons, we would all be hunting on an equal playing field. Does and does only. I love it! I hope the other hunters will go along with it.

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

You realy are missing it for MEEEEEEEEEEEEE it is all about the horns!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I am a buck hunter I do NOT shoot does .
I never said anywhere no one shoots a doe on my place , I said I don't & I won't.
My daughter my wife & any body that I see fit to hunt with me can shoot any legal deer they want.Thats what I'm trying to soak thru your head, its going slowly but I think I'm getting there.
If you want to slay every doe you can knock yourself out, just don't push for laws that tell me how I have to hunt.
And as for earn a buck thats the dumbest thing I ever heard.

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

In PA we get one buck tag per year.

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

I guess the thing that bothers me the most talking about deer management is the hunters that say it's all about the deer. Well in my mind,AR,QDM and food supplement isn't about the deer,it's about better and bigger hunter rewards. I'm not against any of the above plans...I just don't like the fact that alot of people aren't honest (in my mind) about why they support the plans...me,me,me...not the deer. That's OK,to each their own,but don't hide the real reason you like the results of deer enhancement just to get others to go along with the idea to help you out. Just my thoughts.

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

Or hunters who want to shoot bigger bucks selfishly demanding someone else pass up maybe the only opportunity he might get in a year, or maybe force a kid to give up his first opportunity ever to shoot a deer, just because the deer doesn't meet some nebulous minimum points standard.

Now how the heck is anyone going to bring their 'public beliefs' -whatever that means - to your private land? It's your land, you make the rules. That's why you bought it in the first place, isn't it? You are king on your own land. If you want a point restriction on your land, you simply issue your decree and so be it. You don't need no freakin' law to force your ideas down everybody else's throat, do you?

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

Pretty good thoughts too NY Hunter!!!!!

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

I think we do agree quite a bit. I don't even have a problem with encouraging hunters to pass smaller bucks but I think its almost impossible to do that without denegrating their values, starting a fight, and dividing the hunting community?

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

i agree with takin does.

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

Sylvan, you seem like a really reasonable guy. Thats why Im looking for your help here. I like to think Im a pretty reasonable guy too, though a few of the members here may disagree. :D

I honestly dont want to force anyone to my standards, and I wouldnt want to be forced to others standards. But it would be nice to get the successful buck hunters to start thinking "pass the lil guys".

I dont want to MAKE them do that, and I dont want to degrade them, or anything like that. I just want more people to pass the young bucks.

Do you have any ideas or plans that I could use to help do that, without upsetting anyone? (Now Im being honest here, Im really asking for your help)

This has been my approach in the past.

I usually meet hunters in the parking area, in the late evening or what not, and I will approach them and ask what they saw....yada yada yada...tell them some of what Ive seen either while hunting, or scouting.

Tell em about all the young bucks I know of....and the few big ones I know of. I tell them that Im gonna pass all the small eights and stuff, and that Im only after the big guys. I try and get a feel for how perceptive they are to that, and then I will ask if theyd be willing to pass the young ones too. A few of the guys I have met have said YES....and thats always exciting.

One guy I met said he never had harvested a buck, so I just told him where some good spots were and wished him luck....I wasnt about to ask this guy to pass a small buck if he had never shot one. Especially since its state land, and he can do as he pleases.

But some guys do look at me like Im crazy...Those are the guys I dont ask....and a few guys do seem to take offense....but why? Im not forcing them, Im ASKING them.

Is that wrong? Do you think there is a better way?


Ok, on to Bawanajim...

Jim, I dont know why you didnt like me from the start, you attacked me. I attacked you back. But I hate to be mean to someone, and Im done with the insults. I admit I didnt understand what you were getting at, but I think I do now. You have to admit its confusing that you are arguing AGAINST QDM, when you admit that its about the antlers. QDM will help you to get those bigger bucks. But like I said before, Im not gonna tell you what to do. Sorry I insulted you. I hope you can see that I am basically on your side as well.

NYbowhunter, I see what you're saying as well......but its simply not true for all of us. I admit I want bigger antlers, but there are other ways to go about it...TDM is a much better way, but theres no way Im gonna force people to go by that. QDM is exactly what it says it is....its Quality Deer Management. They should really change the name to QWM..quality wildlife management. Because a reduction in the deer herd, not only causes a healthier deer herd, but animals that live off those same foods, flourish as well, due to the improved quality of the habitat.

I photograph wildlife, so I enjoy seeing all sorts of animals thrive. Yes the bigger antlers are one of the reasons I support QDM, but better overall wildlife and habitat is the MAIN reason.

Night all---Matt:)

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

That has to be the funniest thing I've read in awhile (O.K. the 2nd funniest when compared to the crossbow thread).
You want facts but you dont want to hear biological knowledge? Sylvan has posted some very in depth knowledge , and links to the same , pertaining specifically to this topic.:eek:

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

Arthur By your public land beliefs I mean you people that need laws to tell you what you can shoot "As In earn a buck" ,as in "antler restrictions" and any other dumb laws that are put in place to regulate public land. If you don't care to shoot a buck don't,if you want to shoot ten does shoot them just don't press for laws that force your beliefs on others .
And I am glad to see that you do understand the basics of private property rights.

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

Bawanajim,

Not sure if you saw my apology above, so I just wanted to put it out there again. I think we both were insulting each other for no reason. I'm sorry for insulting you.

I also want to comment on your thoughts about earn-a-buck, and AR.

I agree with you, we shouldnt need to have such things, people should be allowed to choose. Especially the AR...I cant agree with antler restrictions, unless the state refuses to limit the amount of buck tags they give. At least this way, you can limit some of the buck tags to be AR. This protects some of the young bucks.

As for earn-a-buck, it isnt the best way, but it gets the job done. It gets people to harvest does that wouldnt normally do so. This is necessary in some areas to keep the amount of does in check. There are areas around me that are absolutely over-run with does. This isnt only my observation, but the states data confirms this. These are the areas we implement earn-a-buck.

So I wouldnt call it "dumb", but I agree its not the best way. That is why I have proposed a different incentive for shooting does. It would enter successful hunters harvesting does in the overpopulated zones into a raffle for hunting gear prizes. The state has acknowledged it, but will not vote on it till next summer.

It would be nice if we could go out and soley hunt bucks, dont get me wrong, but its not whats best for the herd in certain areas. The herd needs to be regulated. Now it would also be nice if the hunters who wanted to shoot does could do it alone. But when we look at who wants to REALLY shoot does, you're not left with many hunters. Ok, you're gonna have your beginners, and trophy hunters wanting to shoot does, but that leaves a lot of hunters out of the doe management plan. Leaving too much "work" for the other hunters.

This is where doe harvest incentives have to come into play. You are truly blessed to own land that you can manage, and have final say over. Telling certain hunters to take does, and allowing others to harvest certain bucks. Its the ultimate dream for most hunters.

The States on the other hand, dont have the liberty to just make certain hunters shoot does. They have to work out a management plan that encompasses the entire state, while still trying to keep the majority of hunters happy. Its NOT an easy job, so its really not right to berate the methods which they use to try and manage the deer and please the hunters. They are honestly doing the best they can.

Hope you have a better understanding as to why all these "rules" are necessary.

Have a good one---Matt:)

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

Matt sorry about the bitchen.

Here in PA the state decided on a plan to lower deer #'s. PA is a huge state but we took the one size fits all approach, now everybodys pissed .Some areas the deer kill has fallen 50% other areas people are over run with deer. People in the middle of the state hunt for days not to see a deer then people down state tell them they don't know how to hunt because they have deer feeding in their yards. It is a mess!
Around here the state says we can support 15 to 21 deer per forested square mile. This area is 50 % forested . So with their #s 1280 acres divided by 18 you get one deer per 71 acres. So on my 150 acres the PA.G.C. thinks I can support 2 deer. The people that followed this plan blindly and shot a doe with every tag they could get , now bitch the loudest. We have people in some counties that take their kids out to hunt but with no deer it is hard get them interested.
I have between fifteen and twenty deer feeding at my house now. If half are does that will have twins I will have between 25-40 deer this summer. That means I will need to buy 2050 more acres to support them.

Maybe that will help explain my lack of support for goverments plan to regulate our deer.

I too am sorry about some comments I have made to you.

If you follow blindly make sure you are not following a lemming!!!!!!!

Good hunting. Jim

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

Its ok Jim, we both got a little fired up, thats all.:)
Hot topics will do that to a guy.

You know, for the most part I agree with everything you're saying. The states dont take into consideration the private land owners efforts to improve habitat. There is no doubt that your land can support more than two deer.

However, they have to base their figures on what they know. What they know is that the forests are severely depleted. Most public land areas probably are as low as 15 deer per sq mile of timber.

Ive always thought that they should try to go by each wildlife management area. As in, each piece of public hunting ground. Not so much by Units, or Zones. Each woodlot is different, and requires a different management plan. If they could send the biologists out to each WMA once every three years, they could get a better idea of what really needs to be done, specifically for THOSE woods. They could even offer to send biologists out to study the larger tracts of privately owned hunting lands. Offering suggestions on what needs to be done to better manage the herd.

Also, I dont believe we should be depleting our deer numbers as far as some states or areas do. Rather, we should improve the habitat to increase the carrying capacities.

Of course you still have to take into consideration the socially acceptable limit of deer. I mean we could easily improve the habitat beyond what the public could stand. Deer/vehicle collisions, and lawn and shrubbery loss would reach unacceptable levels.

Conversely, if we improve the habitat to sustain more deer, less deer will need to seek forage in yards, possibly counter-acting the said rise in deer/human conflicts. Thus allowing hunters the opportunity to see more game in the actual woods, and not in peoples yards. Keeping the numbers in check, at a reasonable level, would also show an improvement in the health and size of the deer.

The only problem with all these ideas is, it takes money, lots of it. Biologists wont visit all the hunting lands for free, and it would be time consuming. Along with planting crops, and other forms of habitat restoration, the cost would not be low.

But I would be willing to take a raise in hunting license costs, if they could provide hunters with more suitable habitat to hunt. Deer and other wildlife would thrive, and hunting would be much more enjoyable for ALL.

When it comes down to the nitty gritty, sure I want to shoot BIG bucks, but I also want to see deer. Im not willing to lower deer numbers to the point I sit most days hoping to see a deer. I think raising the amount of deer that the land can support, and then keeping it at, or just below that amount is the better choice.

I believe this habitat improvement would have more effect than AR or earn-a-buck ever could. Giving hunters the opportunity at more and healthier deer will most likely change their attitudes for the better, regarding doe harvests and passing younger bucks anyway.

Hopefully someday, we can work with our state divisions of wildlife and bring about these positive changes.

Have a good one---Matt:)

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

Umm, last I checked there were only 640 acres per sq. mile!
Continue on, some interesting reading, and it's obvious that things are quite different from state to state and a lot of time county to county, and that one shoe does not fit all, no matter how hard anyone tries to make it work!!

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

Well in NY right now the DEC is looking into AR for the state.. I live and hunt in cattaraugus county which has a nice deer population.. We are given extra doe tags to help keep the population in check. I hunt with twelve other guy's and we always fill our doe tag's.. Shotgun/rifle is only 2 weekends and we had a decrease of 30% in hunters due to this which had a profound effect on deer taken... I do believe we had a decrease of 27% less deer taken due to this(buck & doe)... This was in 2003 and the have already said 2004 had less licence sales.... Now they want AR?!?! In a state that bost's over 1 million deer population how can this help??

RE: If you KNOW, then why don't you?
 

Howler Our area as stated is 50% forested & 50 % god knows what but forested land is all the game comm. counts as deer habitat.

Every body knows deer do not live in a golden rod field.[:@]