Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
09-13-2002 | 09:53 AM
#21
Boone & Crockett
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,157
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From: Lehigh County PA USA
RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
Arthur,
I do agree with your reasoning and to further add something to the post.....
...maybe the correct terminology should be "speed at all costs." Going to a light arrow or going to a heavy draw weight or going to a short brace height, etc... All of these can lead to bad hunting scenarios.
What I do like about today's inherently faster bows is the ability to slap a medium to heavy weight arrow on them and still get the same speed but more KE than a similar bow from ten years ago...<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>. Maybe that is one big benefit from the whole "speed craze".
I do agree with your reasoning and to further add something to the post.....
...maybe the correct terminology should be "speed at all costs." Going to a light arrow or going to a heavy draw weight or going to a short brace height, etc... All of these can lead to bad hunting scenarios.
What I do like about today's inherently faster bows is the ability to slap a medium to heavy weight arrow on them and still get the same speed but more KE than a similar bow from ten years ago...<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>. Maybe that is one big benefit from the whole "speed craze".
09-13-2002 | 10:23 AM
#22
Thread Starter
Giant Nontypical
Joined: Feb 2003
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RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
Frank, there's even a bigger benefit for us older guys. We can maintain the performance we're used to having while shooting substantially lighter draw weights. I've never been against higher performance equipment, per se.
What I've been against is the way it has been, and is being, used by people that are intent about buying success. Sit on their couch in front of the tube all year, pick up their bows a week before season, shoot a few arrows and.... TA DA!!... they're 'bowhunters.' Then they go park their butts in a booth in the coffee shop and talk about 'sticking a couple but couldn't find them' when they never got more than 20 yards from the truck and didn't see a thing.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I have passed up MANY shots because I wasn't positive I could hit the kill zone. I am a terrible judge of distance, I couldn't tell you where I was inside of 30 yards or 300 yards. I practice alot and try to become better. I pick things all the time and then pace them off year round. I'm not unethical because I am bad at this. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Of course you're not unethical, rml. I applaud you for knowing your limitations and working to improve your skills. I wish more people followed your example instead of trying to buy success.
By the way, I hunted with a stickbow for many years (all there was, when I started) but am now hunting with a compound, instinctive. I've also competed in 3D with sights, releases and the whole schmeer... I know what it takes to shoot sights and that's a pain in the butt I don't need in the woods.
MJL, blowhards, like the coffee shop gurus I spoke of, have been around ever since the first bow was made. You'll never get rid of them. But knowledgeble bowhunters shouldn't let 'em get away with spewing their BS when they catch them at it.
How ya doin' Silentassassin?? You've already used the 'no friend to hunting' and PETA lines on me before when you didn't have anything intelligent to say. You need to expand your repertiore of insults. The ones you've got have lost their effectiveness through overuse.
What I've been against is the way it has been, and is being, used by people that are intent about buying success. Sit on their couch in front of the tube all year, pick up their bows a week before season, shoot a few arrows and.... TA DA!!... they're 'bowhunters.' Then they go park their butts in a booth in the coffee shop and talk about 'sticking a couple but couldn't find them' when they never got more than 20 yards from the truck and didn't see a thing.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I have passed up MANY shots because I wasn't positive I could hit the kill zone. I am a terrible judge of distance, I couldn't tell you where I was inside of 30 yards or 300 yards. I practice alot and try to become better. I pick things all the time and then pace them off year round. I'm not unethical because I am bad at this. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Of course you're not unethical, rml. I applaud you for knowing your limitations and working to improve your skills. I wish more people followed your example instead of trying to buy success.
By the way, I hunted with a stickbow for many years (all there was, when I started) but am now hunting with a compound, instinctive. I've also competed in 3D with sights, releases and the whole schmeer... I know what it takes to shoot sights and that's a pain in the butt I don't need in the woods.
MJL, blowhards, like the coffee shop gurus I spoke of, have been around ever since the first bow was made. You'll never get rid of them. But knowledgeble bowhunters shouldn't let 'em get away with spewing their BS when they catch them at it.
How ya doin' Silentassassin?? You've already used the 'no friend to hunting' and PETA lines on me before when you didn't have anything intelligent to say. You need to expand your repertiore of insults. The ones you've got have lost their effectiveness through overuse.
09-13-2002 | 10:36 AM
#23
Giant Nontypical
Joined: Feb 2003
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From:
RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> How ya doin' Silentassassin?? You've already used the 'no friend to hunting' and PETA lines on me before when you didn't have anything intelligent to say. You need to expand your repertiore of insults. The ones you've got have lost their effectiveness through overuse.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Amen.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Amen.
09-13-2002 | 10:38 AM
#24
Nontypical Buck
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,445
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From: Memphis TN USA
RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> How ya doin' Silentassassin?? <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Just to be perfectly honest with you, I would be doing much better if we didn't have so many people like you in the sport. No one that I have ever heard here or in a Pro Shop says "Yea, go them light arrows and you don't even have to bother judging distance blah blah blah blah blah, and you know they don't. You are just twisting it around to make it sound like anyone that doesn't agree with you is unethical. I don't think 260 is fast enough to shoot 1 pin out to 30 yards but I am shooting 292 fps and I know that is fast enough to shoot 1 pin out to 30 by anyones standards. Arthur I may have used the PETA lines on you bfore but it's because it was warranted then and it is again. I suppose that is because you never have anything intelligent to say. Reminds me of a lonely old man with nothing better to do than stir up trouble.
Protect your hunting rights, "Spay or neuter a liberal."
Just to be perfectly honest with you, I would be doing much better if we didn't have so many people like you in the sport. No one that I have ever heard here or in a Pro Shop says "Yea, go them light arrows and you don't even have to bother judging distance blah blah blah blah blah, and you know they don't. You are just twisting it around to make it sound like anyone that doesn't agree with you is unethical. I don't think 260 is fast enough to shoot 1 pin out to 30 yards but I am shooting 292 fps and I know that is fast enough to shoot 1 pin out to 30 by anyones standards. Arthur I may have used the PETA lines on you bfore but it's because it was warranted then and it is again. I suppose that is because you never have anything intelligent to say. Reminds me of a lonely old man with nothing better to do than stir up trouble.
Protect your hunting rights, "Spay or neuter a liberal."
09-13-2002 | 10:40 AM
#25
Nontypical Buck
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,445
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From: Memphis TN USA
RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>quote:
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How ya doin' Silentassassin?? You've already used the 'no friend to hunting' and PETA lines on me before when you didn't have anything intelligent to say. You need to expand your repertiore of insults. The ones you've got have lost their effectiveness through overuse.
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Amen.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Yea Yea Yea we know Bob Co, Arthur's your hero.<img src=icon_smile_clown.gif border=0 align=middle>
Protect your hunting rights, "Spay or neuter a liberal."
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How ya doin' Silentassassin?? You've already used the 'no friend to hunting' and PETA lines on me before when you didn't have anything intelligent to say. You need to expand your repertiore of insults. The ones you've got have lost their effectiveness through overuse.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Amen.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Yea Yea Yea we know Bob Co, Arthur's your hero.<img src=icon_smile_clown.gif border=0 align=middle>
Protect your hunting rights, "Spay or neuter a liberal."
09-13-2002 | 10:50 AM
#26
Nontypical Buck
Joined: Feb 2003
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From: ......
RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
silentassassin - Do you agree that people for the most part use mechanical broadheads because fixed blade heads don't fly well in their untuned bows ?? I believe it to be true, I think many would agree to that, heck I've been there myself. Speed is a huge factor in peoples bows being untunable to fixed heads.
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09-13-2002 | 11:17 AM
#27
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 255
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From: Sheboygan WI USA
RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
Wow guys...some pretty wild statements, and some VERY wild genralizations.
Belle Island "I hope that most people in this forum can accurately judge yardage out to 30 yds within a yard or two, if not they should not be hunting."
After seeing quite a few 3-D shoots, I guess MOST 3-D shooters better not hunt! Some of the pros maybe...but not the rest of us.
"The point I was making was with these so called "speed" bows burning an arrow out at 300+ fps, there is no differce from 10 to 30 yds." At 300 fps, your arrows would be roughly 1.5" high at 10, and 3" high at 20. There IS a differance...just not a VERY big one. (BTW 3" is TOO much for me).
Silent assasin, Yes, many will go to a mech head because they have trouble tuning a fixed blade at those speeds. This is NOT always because they don't have a well tuned bow!!! MANY braodheads can make a LOT of turbulance in flight. the faster the arrow, the more turbulance. The mech heads don't have as large an area making turbulance (they still make it...just a LOT less). OTHER reasons SOME choose a mech head:
BETTER penetration (confirmed in SEVERAL plausable tests)
Better in a cross wind
Bigger hole
Hey guys, remember that 300 fps bow shooting 3" high? Well, one shooting around 240 will be off by around 5.5" If you mis-judge yardage by only 3 yards, you'll be off by about 2.4" if you judged it to be 30 and it was 27, Worse yet, you'll be off by 2.7" if you guessed 30 and it was 33!
The 300 fps bow? guessing 30 yards he would be off by 1.3" if it was the 27 yard shot, and 1.6 on the 33 yard shot.
No, Speed does NOT mean you don't have to judge yardage....it just makes your mistakes smaller.
We are NOT un-ethical for noticing that a 20% drop in speed equals 40-45% increase in distance the arrow will be off target.
Wanna call someone unethical for saying something like " I just got a speedbow shooting 300+fps, I'll shoot mech heads, and I won't have to tune it or ever judge yardage" Fine, I don't have a problem with it.
FACT, Speed DOES make up for missed yardage.....as long as your somewhat close to start with. IF you can shoot a fast bow accurately,your yardage judging becomes LESS critical. NOT UN-critical, but still....LESS critical.
Belle Island "I hope that most people in this forum can accurately judge yardage out to 30 yds within a yard or two, if not they should not be hunting."
After seeing quite a few 3-D shoots, I guess MOST 3-D shooters better not hunt! Some of the pros maybe...but not the rest of us.
"The point I was making was with these so called "speed" bows burning an arrow out at 300+ fps, there is no differce from 10 to 30 yds." At 300 fps, your arrows would be roughly 1.5" high at 10, and 3" high at 20. There IS a differance...just not a VERY big one. (BTW 3" is TOO much for me).
Silent assasin, Yes, many will go to a mech head because they have trouble tuning a fixed blade at those speeds. This is NOT always because they don't have a well tuned bow!!! MANY braodheads can make a LOT of turbulance in flight. the faster the arrow, the more turbulance. The mech heads don't have as large an area making turbulance (they still make it...just a LOT less). OTHER reasons SOME choose a mech head:
BETTER penetration (confirmed in SEVERAL plausable tests)
Better in a cross wind
Bigger hole
Hey guys, remember that 300 fps bow shooting 3" high? Well, one shooting around 240 will be off by around 5.5" If you mis-judge yardage by only 3 yards, you'll be off by about 2.4" if you judged it to be 30 and it was 27, Worse yet, you'll be off by 2.7" if you guessed 30 and it was 33!
The 300 fps bow? guessing 30 yards he would be off by 1.3" if it was the 27 yard shot, and 1.6 on the 33 yard shot.
No, Speed does NOT mean you don't have to judge yardage....it just makes your mistakes smaller.
We are NOT un-ethical for noticing that a 20% drop in speed equals 40-45% increase in distance the arrow will be off target.
Wanna call someone unethical for saying something like " I just got a speedbow shooting 300+fps, I'll shoot mech heads, and I won't have to tune it or ever judge yardage" Fine, I don't have a problem with it.
FACT, Speed DOES make up for missed yardage.....as long as your somewhat close to start with. IF you can shoot a fast bow accurately,your yardage judging becomes LESS critical. NOT UN-critical, but still....LESS critical.
09-13-2002 | 11:56 AM
#28
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 557
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From: Hamilton Square NJ USA
RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
Dead on the money Stealthforce. Anyone who expects people to accurately judge yardage every time to within a yard or two past 15-20 yards is just silly. Maybe those critters out west sit around to be ranged, but an ole Eastern Whitetail ain't gonna let you fool around with a rangefinder. Very foolish statements in this thread, which was pretty foolish to begin with.
"In heaven, even the fish have antlers"
"In heaven, even the fish have antlers"
09-13-2002 | 11:57 AM
#29
Nontypical Buck
Joined: Feb 2003
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From: ......
RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
" BETTER penetration (confirmed in SEVERAL plausable tests)
Better in a cross wind
Bigger hole"
Bigger holes mean bigger cutting diameters, right ? That mean LESS penetration, not more. Also, how often have you hunted in a crosswind hard enough to blow your arrow off ? That would be like 30+ mpg and beyoned 30-40 yards ???
Stealthycat's Photo's
Better in a cross wind
Bigger hole"
Bigger holes mean bigger cutting diameters, right ? That mean LESS penetration, not more. Also, how often have you hunted in a crosswind hard enough to blow your arrow off ? That would be like 30+ mpg and beyoned 30-40 yards ???
Stealthycat's Photo's
09-13-2002 | 12:01 PM
#30
Joined: Feb 2003
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From:
RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
I've noticed a few negative statements regarding using one pin to 30 yards. I'm one who does this, but I don't hold dead-on at every yardage in between. I know that at point blank range, I need to hold a bit high, at 20 yards, I'll be holding a couple inches low, at 25 yards I'll be right on and at 30 yards, I'll be holding a few inches high.
If a target is out there in the 30 yard vicinity, I'm holding a few inches high. I don't need an extra pin to gap this. Same at 20 yards. Am I always within a yard or two on estimating distance? Nope, probably almost never. But I know if the deer is close or further out, how to compensate with one pin. I can hold 1" groups per 10 yard distance, which is definitely better than the average bowhunter. Do I need to know the exact yardage to kill a deer 99% of the time? No, at least not for the last 32 years of bowhunting I haven't. Is using one pin to 30 yards on a moderate speed bow, unethical? Not at all if you know how to shoot it.
If a target is out there in the 30 yard vicinity, I'm holding a few inches high. I don't need an extra pin to gap this. Same at 20 yards. Am I always within a yard or two on estimating distance? Nope, probably almost never. But I know if the deer is close or further out, how to compensate with one pin. I can hold 1" groups per 10 yard distance, which is definitely better than the average bowhunter. Do I need to know the exact yardage to kill a deer 99% of the time? No, at least not for the last 32 years of bowhunting I haven't. Is using one pin to 30 yards on a moderate speed bow, unethical? Not at all if you know how to shoot it.