RE: please tell me just one negative to crossbows
 

Actually, I'm very much FOR compounds, and crossbows, and archery tackle. Why does it bother you that my choice of weapons are so much more challenging ?

Mattiac - I item lined and replied in VERY detail to your points. Didn't I ?

No - I speficially addressed that I believe. Its all inclusive

If I believed that I would not have shot a Q2 last fall, would I ?
ANd I sure wouldn't be shooting a Hoyt Gamemaster ! LOL - so much for what you thought you knew huh ?


Good question - I'm not sure why the compound was allowed back then when crossbows were not. Perhaps because of how poor compounds were then - they were not percieved to be anything that could take away from archery ? I'm not sure - it might have been an agreement to allow one but not the other.

Hmmmmmmmmm - isn't that what YOU'RE doing ??

RE: please tell me just one negative to crossbows
 

DC,

Your kidding right, I make all these points and the only thing you can say is I have the wrong abbreviation for Arkansas? Should I start to point out all the misspelled words I have been trying to decipher? I would be here all day! You knew what I meant but I guess I should have expected it from a side that is seeing their argument running out of steam.

You guys keep floating them over and we will keep smacking them back.

RE: please tell me just one negative to crossbows
 

lol some of you guys are taking this really personally. Ok i havent read all the 70 odd pages of this thread but ill tell you what i think lol. Crossbows in my opinoin are just slow rifles, thats all they are. the only difference is they shoot an arrow instead of a bullet. other then that theres really no difference. they are trying to legalize them here in illinois because some guy wants his daughter to hunt with him but she cant pull it back? im sorry but tuff luck practice with her until she can it wont take that long she will probly be hunting by next season. i dont want xbows to be legalized in illinois. some of you guys will say o we dont tell u what to hunt with so dont tell us, well you know what im not its my own opinoin. illinois should stay the way it is by only letting disabled people use them instead of everyone. because if that happens its just like a rifle season all the time during bow season. and illinois has already royaly screwed up for next years hunting with the NR tags and taking away the checkinstations, but you know what its ALL ABOUT THE MONEY and thats never goin to change so i guess we have to live with it.

RE: please tell me just one negative to crossbows
 

Ma Jay,

I'm not picking on you I just think you are on the verge of a breakthrough. You have been very civil (probably more than me:D) If I understand you. You think a crossbow is more bowlike than a gun but can't bring yourself to allow them into the archery season because of the differences that they do have from the hand held and drawn bows right?

Well that leaves us with where to put them? Now because they are not firearms we can rule them out of the gun season. Yes I know some states have them in gun season and some states have them in archery season so thats a wash, fair?

So if not the gun season then where? Well there are only two other choices and that is 1. It's own season and 2. With the archery season.

The problem I see with crossbows having there own season is the bow hunters would have a fit if their season was shortened for crossbows. Could you imagine if the crossbowers were given the first two weeks of the season, having first crack at all of those big bucks you guys have been scouting all year? I can feel the collective blood pressure rise by just typing this. No wait, lets give them the first two weeks of the rut, again the bow hunters would blow their tops to know the crossbowers were out there when all of those elusive monster bucks stopped being elusive and started paying more attention to "what comes naturally". So when? Stick them at the end of the season when the rut is over but the food is scarce and the deer must feed longer into the mornings to get their fill and thus exposing themselves to the hunters? If I were to guess the last is what most would choose, afterall at least you all would have had your crack at all the good bucks and there would be nothing left but scraps for the crossbow hunters because after all they really aren't hunters anyway. No that's not too elitist is it?

Do you see the problem that some states would have? I am talking more about the states with very short (just two weekends) gun seasons like here in Illinois but it still could apply to most states.

Again the only logical season would be the archery season. Why do you ask? First because a crossbow is by it's definition a bow and because I have not seen any negative thing from the states that do allow crossbows in their seasons. So why would I expect to see it in mine?

But mostly I ask, why not? What do you stand to loose? This talk about a infusion of "slob" hunters is nonsence, it hasn't happened in the states that do allow them why would people think it would happen in their state? Too many deer would be killed? Hey by most accounts deer populations have been on the rise all over the nation and get this.....even in the states that have allowed crossbow hunters into the archery seasons. Go figure, how in the hell did that happen if all of those "slob" gun hunters picked up crossbows and marched into the woods as some of you would have us believe?

Again I ask...Why not?

"Well BigJ It's just not archery."

But the Websters dictionary says it is.

"It's not how archery was intended by the ones who started the bow hunting movement."

Neither were compounds but they were allowed to thrive.

"It's just not the same as pulling back your bow and holding it with your hand....errr release."

Yes it's not, but it still is a bow, just another form of one. Holding a shoulder mounted scoped rifle is not the same as a hand held pistol with open sights is it? I don't hear the pistol crowd saying rifle hunting should be separate from them because it's "just not the same" why, because they are both firearms.

"But BigJ, we can't let our pristine and sacred hunting fraternity be compromised by these "mouth breathing" cretins. How would that look when we are supposed to be the chosen ones in the hunting community?

Now we are getting somewhere! I bet most of you, when nobody is around to judge you are thinking just that.....sad but true, because as hard as you try, some of you just can't help it and it shows in your posts.

RE: please tell me just one negative to crossbows
 

BOY Im glad I live in Ohio. Hunt, Hunt, and Hunt more often.

RE: please tell me just one negative to crossbows
 

Lets make it even easier....:D

RE: please tell me just one negative to crossbows
 

Im with you Bowfanatic. Aluminum risers are sooo traditional...[:-] The point is all makes of bows have advanced dramatically since the Pope & Young days. You cant criticize compounds for being 'too' advanced before you look at the modern recurves and longbows. As far as I know (which isnt far) the only company that makes true recurves is Black Widow. Once again Im no expert. But its really hard to find a classic longbow or recurve thats in hunting shape. So you could tell me to make my own bow like they did in the real archery days. Sorry, way to busy. I could never make my own bow and arrows with the limited free time I have. So if I cant find a real classic longbow or recurve with out breaking my back over it, why would I? So I go with a compound. Reason being is because Im far too busy to get a recurve or longbow and shoot 50 arrows a day to be decent, and because X bows are far too modern. So with my lifestyle, the most challenge I can get out of bowhunting is using a compound. OK?

RE: please tell me just one negative to crossbows
 

Well I don't shoot trad gear and I certainly don't have any other agenda rather than to enlightened people who are uneducated about the use of crossbows to the complete and utter non-impact they have on my hunting.

Looks like you have done the same thing but you didn't like it when it was done back to you. The way I see it is if you are prepared to jump into the debate then you better be prepared to defend your responses. You were making unfounded assumptions of which your have no idea based on your own predjudice and misguided fear.

data, does have an elititist attitude towards his equipment but all of his points are valid and his elitism is no different than what the compounders on this thread are showing toward the crossbow. The difference between data, myself, and you guys is that we don't believe are own particular beliefs should be forced on others. I would rather see guys shoot compounds and i try to encourage them to do so but I have seen several guys over the years start out shooting a crossbow and wind up going to a compound later that by their own admission whould have never started archery hunting. I just have a hard time seeing that as a negative. Now you couple that with the fact that you open up the archery season to many that it hasn't been open to before and that outweighs any negatives they may have.

RE: please tell me just one negative to crossbows
 

This discussion is going no where, neither side will budge. So I present you with this.

Im a reasonable person, Ive seen EXACTLY what you're talking about since the begining.

In some cases it does seem unfair that a short range weapon lauching broadheaded arrows is made part of firearm seasons. I can see your point.

I also see your point about recurves and longbows being more difficult to hunt with than a comound. There is NO denying that, I tried to make the switch, but just couldnt master it well enough to justify shooting at an animal.

I also agree that there are some advances in compounds that make it much more unfair. I dont believe hunting bows should have over 75% let-off. These new concept bows that are 99% let-off are too easy to hold back. Its unfair.

Ive mentioned all of that from the start though.

So we agree on most of this, right?

Now that we agree on most of this, please answer these yes or no questions for me;

Do you see the difference in having the bow cocked (drawn) back, and having to draw when the animal is near you? (Yes) (No)

Do you think its fair to incorporate draw locks into the archery seasons? (Yes) (No)

Should we eliminate the compound bow, and not allow the crossbow, allowing only primitive archery tackle to be used (hoyt gamemasters and the like, would be included)? (Yes) (No)


Data, you're right on a LOT of your points, but to say that you're not drawing a compound in the presence of the deer is incorrect. Not all deer stop behind foliage or a tree. Sometimes you have to draw when they turn their head. Recurve and Longbow users rarely draw in the "presence" of game then either. I was taught much of what I know by a die-hard traditionalist. He taught me to draw the bow at the moment you cant see the animals eyes. So by your definition, hardly any bowhunters are drawing back in the "presence" of the animal.

However, the definition of presence is; pres·ence Pronunciation Key (przns)
noun
The state or fact of being present; current existence or occurrence.
Immediate proximity in time or space.
The area immediately surrounding a great personage, especially a sovereign.
A person who is present.

A person's bearing, especially when it commands respectful attention: “He continues to possess the presence, mental as well as physical, of the young man” (Brendan Gill).
The quality of self-assurance and effectiveness that permits a performer to achieve a rapport with the audience: stage presence.
A supernatural influence felt to be nearby.
The diplomatic, political, or military influence of a nation in a foreign country, especially as evidenced by the posting of its diplomats or its troops there: “The American diplomatic presence in London began in 1785 when John Adams became our first minister” (Nancy Holmes).


Seems rather clear that any animal with in close proximity would be in your PRESENCE.

Cocking the bow back when you are 500 yards from your stand, or even when your in the stand and do not have the animal within your presence would be different. I dont think you could say that you drew in the animals presence. Which to me is the challenging part of bowhunting. Taking this away, is removing the reason we bowhunt. Do you really disagree with that?


Think about it this way; Why not allow motorcycles in a bicycle race?
Why not allow motorcycles in a car race?

Where are the negatives there? Sure the motorcycle has an engine and can blow the bike away, but both have wheels. One guy just chose the easier ride.

Why not allow the motorcycle into the car race then? They both have wheels, and a motor powers those wheels. Wheres the negative? So the motorcycle can out accelerate the car, and out handle it in turns. The guy on the motorcycle chose the better tool for the job.

How about suicide, there arent any negatives, yet you're not allowed to do it. Why, you arent harming anyone else? You want to take your life, and the law wont allow.

What Im getting at is, sometimes there arent clear and valid negatives to disallow stuff. Somethings just arent fair, or they dont fit into the category well enough. Some things just dont make any sense. This falls in between.

In a way it makes seems unreasonable to disallow a cross"bow" from a "bow" season. But when you look closer you can see how it doesnt really fit into the category that all the allowable bows do. They are all hand-held, and hand-drawn in the presence of game. Granted some of them are becoming so far advanced, they have almost lost the whole draw in the presence of game aspect. But they still barely retain it.

Sorry I got nasty in my last post, I wasnt in a very good mood.

RE: please tell me just one negative to crossbows
 

BigJ we are close .. but at the very end we just differ in our opinions.

I just don't follow your logic, and please try and see it from my side. I told you I agree that a crossbow is not a gun, but has some gun like similarities. I see the stock, the trigger mechanism, the safeties and the magnified rifle scopes as gun like. I also see their bow like similarities, the limbs and string generating energy, a bolt that resembles a short arrow, their range and effectiveness .. but as I have said, I don't consider them a bow. I consider them something different.

So that leaves my mind with 3 choices. 1. It's own season. 2. Archery Season 3. Firearms Season.

Now if you factor 3 states have allowed them during Archery season, about 30 allow them during firearm season (rough estimate on checking regs of various states) 5 have "Crossbow Seasons" we have some historical info to draw from. I don't think lumping them in with archery is a good idea and it is related to this point-

The answer is not on the decline, but steady would be a better description. NH has approximately 10,000 deer killed a season, in total! If you look at the deer harvest numbers here in New England across Vermont, Maine and NH you'll see what I am talking about. Due to the fact one bad winter can kill a 1/4 of our herd, we don't have the huge deer numbers as you down south. You have County's that kill more deer than exist in our whole state. So when you state that 30% of archery kills can be attributed to crossbows, even if that is 10 years from the passing of the law, that would increase the deer harvest significantly enough to lose at least a third of the season. So when I stated that I thought NH did the right thing by allowing them during firearm season it was because I think it did what was right for our state. That being it allowed crossbow hunters an opportunity to hunt with their weapon of choice. It allowed archers the time necessary to harvest approximately 20% of the kill, and ML and firearms season were just long enough to meet the Fish and Game's harvest numbers while providing time to both weapon types. Do I think crossbow hunters deserve more time in the woods? Right now they get just short of a month in the woods, which I feel is fair. As I said before, they are not bows or require archery skills to shoot so to me they are not considered archery. I think many here miss the point of why archery season is so long. It's not because archery is more deserving, it is because as a collective group of "archers" it takes far longer for us to harvest a certain percentage of the deer herd. In my state that is approx 20% of the kill. I believe crossbows in some states, such as a Pennsylvania or New York could sustain a crossbow season on its own as they have the deer herds to warrant the extra pressure, but require the ability to at times to limit kill in certain areas. I think Arkansas has the luxury of just adding the crossbow to archery season as it was not concerned with adding to the overall kill, even though it probably is a more effective deer harvesting weapon. I say "probably" because I do not think that 30% of the hunters in Arkansas's woods during archery season carry crossbows .. based on the remarks of people here, the feedback I have heard while shooting archery with people from Arkansas and the overall popularity of crossbows. I assume that crossbows have a greater harvest percentage than bows .. which we could debate why... but many states could not afford to allow archery season to kill even just 10% more deer than they currently do. Which I think is why you don't see the crossbow being utilized during archery season except in very rare instances, or 3 states.

So while you may be able to use Arkansas as an example where allowing crossbows is NOT a problem, I am telling you the numbers of deer killed during their archery season with crossbows will cause them to have shorter time afield than archers here in Northern states. There is an actual reason they are not allowed in most states.. it was not anti-crossbow sentiment, it is many factors. That is why I am confident they will not ever be just "considered archery" here where I hunt.

RE: please tell me just one negative to crossbows
 

one word - GUNPOWDER


And that is based on what evidence ?

BOWFANATIC - what is your point with that high tec recurve ??

Actually, self bows are STILL what bows were back in the days of P&Y. Some all wood bows like Saluki's are too with jiust differnt glues. And even the laminate bows now made are till 100% full weight of draw, shot off the shelf, using instinctive shooting. Aren't they ?


You're wrong. Blacktail, Morriosn, Acadian Woods, Bear's Paw, Hummingbird, Robertsons, Shafer Silvetips - the list goes on and on for trad boywers making recurves. Fact is - Black Widow don't even hand make them anymore - machines do it.


Well, you're one of the few being honest here. You choose a modern compound because you don't have the time and effort and dedication to master a recurve. And thats okay - it really is. However, why not let people who have evern less time and want to spend a bit less effort use a crossbow ? Seriously ............ why not ? They have no negative impacts in archery season and if we're splitting hairs on who shoots the easier bow - surely I can look at your equipment (being a trad archer) and say the same things about your compound that you say about crossbows - right ??



Near you or in the presence like P&Y preaches ? To answer your question - No, I don't see much difference anymore because neither is anything like shooting a recurve.

No, not really. So few people would use them - it would have no impact overall.

No, I don't believe so in almost every situation. Why ? Read this - its the most important part of my argument - please. The modern compound bow is responsible for hundreds of thousands being led into archery season - many two-seaon hunters. Gun hunters wanting "more" season to hunt. And they fell in love with bowhunting. By the thousands. Archery would be nothing that it is today without the modern compound bow. And in the past 10 years theres been a resurgence of traditional archery. Bowyers popping up everywhere, the Leatherwall and Tradgang websites booming - and it compounders who are finding the compound to be ..... not as challenging as it once was. So they are going trad. But overall, you need only to look at the states that allow archery season , the impacts they have, those that allow only compound and those that allow crossbows - and its easy to see that archery hunters all total don't take NEAR the % of the deer killed that rifle do. The compoud is used by what, 90% of archers ? Yet we still haven't come anywhere close to reaching the numbers or success rates to threaten archery season.

So no - allow the easy to use compound :D becuase it has no effects on my archery season in the least little bit. And neither do draw locks, and neither do crossbows. Thats not to say I don't feel like archery is somewhat lost with all the technology ....... it certainly is, but I'm not forcing my beliefs on anyone especially if its based soley on my personal opinions.

Mattiac - I've hunted in more states that most guys here have. I've killed elk, mule deer, antelope and whitetails. I've compound hunted for over a decade, and I've been damn good at it. I've also got 3 years traditonal experience and I'm telling you and everyone else that trad hunting is a vastly different ballgame. Any deer - and I mean ANY DEER - within 35 yards of my stand with a compound I'll kill if I want to with few things to stop me. A recurve in my hand ? I need 15 yards - I'll take 20 yards or so but the deer has to be RIGHT THERE - perfect situation ............ and even then things can happen. The old "presence of game" thing was P&Y rhetoric - before the 80% and greater letoffs.

gasoline engine - its why guns are not allowed in archery season - they shoot bullets and use gunpowder as the propellent.

If crossbows used gunpowder I'd be against them.

RE: please tell me just one negative to crossbows
 

MaJay,

You're ducking me like a championship fighter. As I have said now twice already.
Crossbows represent slightly more than 2% of the deer killed in the state of AR after 30 years of being allowed in archery season. If we apply those numbers to your state it would increase the deer harvest by roughly 270 animals. Even in states where there are very few deer killed, 270 animals is inconsequential at best. So if we run a trend based on Arkansas' numbers after 30 years of allowing crossbows NH could potentially see up to 270 deer a year being killed by crossbows[:-][&:];) I don't really think that is going to cut your season. But where I get confused is when you guys say that crossbows won't bring in any new hunters and then your turn around and say the woods would be over crowded and every deer in the state would be killed on the first day of the season etc. etc. I guess I am just confused. Are they going to bring in additional hunters or aren't they? If they are, from what I understand about the anti-hunting climate in the NE, you guys ought to be welcoming addittional hunters to the season, because even if your fear is realized and the season is cut, a shorter season is better than no season at all, which is where you are going to wind up if you keep inisisting on alienating those whom support you will ultimately need. If they aren't going to bring in any new hunters it shouldn't affect you guys anyway because it will just be a wash on the number of deer killed because they same number of hunters will be hunting and killing the same number of deer, only they will be killing them with different weapons which will be irrelevant if the numbers remain the same.


Then you guys talk about increased success rates. So that's a bad thing? I thought the whole point was to kill the animal as quickly and cleanly as possible and to try never to wound one and let it get away and now you want to punish crossbows for that:eek:[:'(]:( By saying that you are saying that you would rather see more wounded deer in the field????????

Statistically the number of deer killed with archery equipment is insignificant anyway. You are not going to alter the outcome of the deer herd one way or the other by shortening the bow season because the number of deer killed is so statistically insigificant. There are 10 times more deer killed in AR on opening day of gun season than there is in the entire 4.5 month bowseason. Now if they were going to cut days inorder to have an affect on the herd, where would it make the most sense to cut them from? If you answered the gun season then you would be correct because due to the number of hunters and the capability of their weapons they have much more ability to control the herd with this method. Relying on archery to have an effect on the overall deer herd is unreliable at best.

That may be 100% correct but if it is it's purely a lucky guess because you have no way of knowing why and what each different state based their decisions either to allow or disallow crossbows on.

RE: please tell me just one negative to crossbows
 

I try to give, and see your side, which I am to a point, but you are not being realistic in your answers. You make no attempt to see where we are coming from. Failing to acknowledge the good points made. Merely pointing out your side, over and over. Where does that get us? No where.

When you sit here and make your own definition for the word "presence" I cant debate you. Its impossible to debate someone when they change the definitions of words around to suit their needs. You REFUSE to listen to legitimate reasons. Passing them off as opinion. How am I to convey a message to you? I cant, nor should I bother to try any further.

I rattled off the good points you made, and there were many, yet you still ignore the points Ive made. Its a very good way to win an argument, in your own mind that is. Whether you are FOR or AGAINST crossbows being introduced into archery seasons, you can see that a few of our points against them are infact legitimate.

Denying that they are, only makes you look less credible. I gave ground on points, yet you stand like a rock, never budging, whether right or wrong. Only wanting to hear what you want to hear. When I read your second post, I knew immediately that you had no intentions of swaying the general public to allow crossbows. I never should have entered into this mockery of a thread. But I felt obligated to point out the holes in your case, whether you consider them valid or not. The majority of archers do. Thankfully the majority of hunters, and state wildlife divisions CAN see the clear difference, and refuse to let this weapon into the archery seasons. Should it be introduced around here, I will do my best to stop it. If it is incorporated, then I will outwardly treat those "archers" with as much respect as I treat any hunter who harvests game legally and ethically.

Last two questions, and then I give up.

What were your honest intentions when you started this thread?

Why is a traditional hunter such as yourself pushing for the use of a weapon that offers much advantage over your own?

RE: please tell me just one negative to crossbows
 

Okay.

I agree.

Its tough - I agree

Again, I agree - but we also agree that technolgoy is NOT stopping.

correct

notice that I did answer - in detail

I disagree and said why

Yes - as I stated before. Drawing on a deer with a compound vs a recurve is vastly different. Moving the crossbow around to get a shoot - that is different too.


gas engines - I've said that before

I can think of many reasons why. None of which really have anything to do with hunting. Why do we have so many types of auto racing ? NASCAR, Formula 1, all the other kinds. Why ? Lots of reasons - none based on hunting though

The legalities of suicide are lengthy, post that one on the political forum. :D

I tend to like to KNOW what I believe and why. I went for years going along with the crossbow hating crowd. Until I had to PROVE why I hated them - then I realized I had no good reasons. And honeslty ? I hate having a view simply becuase its the way it is.

.

Barely retaining it is reason to keep allowing it ? You're starting to sound anti-compound :) But I agree with you. However - what are you basing all this on ? Are archery seasons being shortened due to too many hunters ? Too many deer killed ? Maybe the "spirit" of archery has been lost ? WHY ?

Mattiac - you cannot say that i don't respond to your posts - its simply untrue

To make people THINK why they are against crossbows. When people have to justify WHY they have ac ertain idea - over the internet - you best really know WHY you believe something. And most people don't

Becuase I realized long ago that you shooting a compound doesn't effect my archery season not one little bit. And facts are - as seen in the states that allow crossbows - that archery season isn't affected much at all by their legality in general archery season.

You cannot be pro-technology and anti-crossbow. Doing so iis calling the kettle black. You (and I don't mean you specifically) want your easy - your compounds - your bows that don't require much practice but afford great accuracy and ease of use and it doesn't matter than you yourself are taking the easy road. Why ? Your choice, of course. But dammit, lets not let those easier to use crossbows huh ? Why ? Easier to use and even LESS dedication that you yourself are willing to invest.

But isn't that exactly what recurve shooters can say about compounders ?


Don't you see the HUGE hypocracy there ?


So I looked at it all, and I came away saying hey, you know what ? Arkansas allows ALL bows in archery season. We have 4 1/2 months to hunt, we take maybe 10% of the total kill, we have liberal bag limits ............. what do I care if you decide 3 days before archery season to dust off your compound and go hunting and kill a big 10 pointer ? What do I care if you shoot a crossbow or a compound or a recurve ? It won't affect me at all, will it ?

RE: please tell me just one negative to crossbows
 

You mean like you are doing by refusing to listen and or admit the reasons for allowing them?

What are your opinions based on. Do you live in a state where crossbows have been legalized and do you have firsthand knowledge of their effect on the archery season and the archers they share the woods with? Several of us do yet you seem to discount our opinions as though they have little relevance yet we are the ones with the firsthand knowledge and experience with which to base our opinions. All you have to base them on so far as I can tell is your own personal predjudices toward crossbows and irrational fears.

OK I I read through the posts but maybe I didn't read through them well enough because I didn't see any good points that you made. I saw you express some concerns over what could possibly happen though you have examples of states where the bad things did not actually happen though you dismiss those good points that have been made eventhough I have do have examples of states that have seen none of the negatives that you fear.

I have nothing to win or lose in this argument other than seeing the numbers of hunters in archery increase and therefore our strength. But they are already legal in my state and barring some type of injury I won't be shooting one anyway. The only people losing here are those that are being excluded from the archery season and those that are to close minded to look at the other side of the coin. I have spent time on the other side of this argument so I feel extremely confident in telling you that I have seen both sides of this argument and after sharing 16 archery seasons with those hunting with crossbows, I have changed my opinion on them and came to realize that far more good than bad comes from allowing them in archery season.

No I really don't and certainly no more legitimate than data's rebutal's of the differences between compounds and traditional equipment.

If I seem less credible to you because I want others, to no benefit of myself, to be able to enjoy archery season, then maybe you need to re-evaluate your reasons for opposing them.

Maybe that's because there is more ground to give on your side;)

I am assuming that you aren't talking to me here because my only intention is to enlightened those that have not been exposed to the admittance of crossbows into the archery season that there was infact nothing to fear and that there are more positives than negatives.

Which you have failed to do and you have been out debated after doing so and you are taking it personally. We all tend to do that at times. It's just a little easier to stand firm when you know are supporting the best interest of our sport;)

I will concede that point but i will tell that the tides are changing and I can only hope to help the effort. While there are many that will never concede to there being a positive side to their introduction, if I can convince just one person that maybe crossbows aren't evil and the scurge of bowhunters everywhere and don't infact pose any threats to the archers they will share their seasons with, then it is worth and it's a moral victory for me regarless of how you feel about the outcome of this debate. Adams appears to have some what reconsidered his stance so that in itself was worth this whole 74 pages IMO.

I will say it again now as I have said many times in this thread, hunters shouldn't lobby against other hunters because when we do there is no need for anti-hunters because we are doing their jobs for them.

[quote]What were your honest intentions when you started this thread?

Because why should he care or get to decide if another archer chooses to use a weapon that gives them slightly more advantage than him. We all hunt for our own reasons and why would you even want to try to dictate your own principles on everyone else when the weapons are so similar in their performance and the differences between them are so trivial and ultimately inconsequential?

RE: please tell me just one negative to crossbows
 

Do you guys ever sleep? I leave work and come back this morning and there are three or four new pages since yesterday afternoon! IMHO every conceivable point has been covered. What does it take to kill this thread? Maybe a diversion, like deer dogs running over your property during deer season univited. Now that would be a good one for discussion! :D

RE: please tell me just one negative to crossbows
 

Silent, I see how you came up with you figures.. now please try and see how I arrived at mine. I see you factored on the 2% of total harvest, but I think that is the wrong number to use to give you the clear picture of what a crossbow group does to an archery season.. that number is 30% of deer killed during archery season in Arkansas were from crossbows. 30% ... to get 30% you have 3 options, 1. some "bow hunters" put down their bows and started hunting with crossbows 2. some gun hunters who did not bow hunt before felt comfortable enough with a crossbow to hunt with it and started using the archery season 3. Brand new hunters who never hunted before grabbed crossbows and entered the woods during archery season. If just 10% of the harvest during archery season were to be made by gun hunters who did not care to learn archery but felt comfortable with a crossbow.. and I am leaning WAY to the conservative side as I would put money it was closer to 25% of crossbow kills ... but say 10% for arguments sake were gun hunters who killed deer with crossbows, but would not hunt with archery gear. In Arkansas that's no big deal, we're talking hundreds of thousands of deer. But in NH, with 10,000 total deer killed, and 2000 in archery, an extra 10% is significant. Which is why we chose to allow crossbow hunters to hunt during the firearms season so they still have the opportunity to hunt, but will not raise the total deer kill during archery to high. I would support a Crossbow Season as well, as that would allow the Fish and Game to vary the season according to overall season goals. What I don't think is smart in our state is to add a new weapon to our archery season as crossbow hunters could affect the dynamic's of the season so greatly as to possibly cause the season to be made shorter. Do you see why???? If "Archers" kill 20% of the deer in my state over a 3 month season, and due to a large influx .. hell, even a small to medium influx of additional deer harvested during archery season it would require the shortening of the season to meet the 20% goal harvest for archery season. But do you see what happens? That means less of the archery kill is done by "archers". Shorten the season a bit and less deer will be taken by bows. If NH's archery deer kill numbers were to be made up of 30% crossbows.. then only 70% of deer were killed with Archery equipment. Do you know why? Because 20% of the deer harvest is not an arbitrary number. It is the percentage of deer that NH feels comfortable having killed by archery. 80% are firearms killed, and percentage of about 20% is allocated for ML's.

So my point is .. the deer harvest has been almost flat here in NH for years. If 20% is what Archery takes .. and you are telling me that 30% of archery kills in Arkansas are from Crossbows .. then I tell you that means "Archers" get a lot less deer. So when our state said the "Crossbows" allowable harvest can come from the largest deer kill allotment, the 60% of the total during the firearm season.. I say they got it right.

If you had a state that wanted to kill more total deer, and there are a few, it would make sense to add a Crossbow Season that may or may not be as long as the Archery Season, but could be adjusted, as all seasons are based on what the harvest objective is.

Guys, I don't know how to make it more clear than that .....

RE: please tell me just one negative to crossbows
 

GRIZZLYMAN - I can type 300 words per minute - thats helps tremendously because I can wear out my opponents who only type with 2 fingers :D

RE: please tell me just one negative to crossbows
 

MA Jay - so what you're saying is, you think theres just the right ammount of archery hunters right now, your state cannot add an additional few hunters. Correct ?

What if, in the next 2 years, an additional 20% of the gun hunters in your state double up and shoot compounds ?

Will your archery season be destroyed ?

With your point of view - it would seem that we cannot AFFORD any new hunters at all ????

RE: please tell me just one negative to crossbows
 

Even if we use your numbers and say that roughly 20% of your deer are killed by archers in NH. Then let's says 30% of that 2000 were killed by crossbow hunters. You are still only talking about 600 deer. Now that's after 30 years of allowing people to use crossbows that we have reached those percentages. But as several people have mentioned, there isn't a crossbow following out there that wants them to be legalized so there shouldn't be any massive influx of hunters. However, even if 600 are killed by crossbow we can't automatically assume it's all new hunters because a fair percentage of that may be converts, in which case there kills would be neglible because they would have killed the same amount either way. But even in a state like NH, 600 deer as a worst case scenario isn't going to have an overhwhelming effect on your deer herd and if it did they wouldn't look to cut days from the archery season. Do you have large winter kills? If so do they adjust season lengths accordingly for particularly bad years? If so where do they take the days from? Also, is it not worth losing a few days of season for others to have the same oppurtunites to hunt that you do? If not aren't you just serving your own self interest? If so then let's just call it what it is and say "I don't want to share my deer and my season with others who may be less fortunate than myself because I am greedy". I would repsect that answer a lot more. I would still disagree with the stance but at least you guys would have the backbone to admit what you are really saying.

RE: please tell me just one negative to crossbows
 

No it won't be destroyed, it would be shortened. If that many new archers were to embrace archery, I would gladly embrace the change and the shortened seasons. If they were to allow a new and different weapon to take up 30% of the allocated archery harvest, I would have an issue with that.

RE: please tell me just one negative to crossbows
 

But shouldn't those folks have that chance and wouldn't the sport be better for it?

RE: please tell me just one negative to crossbows
 

I guess I'll jump in while I have a spare 30 seconds at work.

Silent assassin; Yea, I can tell you can type fast and overwhelm with words. I can type fast too. My problem is I have people coming in and out of my office all day asking questions, so it took me ten minutes to finish this sentence. :D

MA Jay; I will use myself as an example of a gun hunter who started bowhunting. I use to bowhunt back in the 80's and got away from it and gun hunted for about twelve years. Yes, I did learn on a recurve back when I was a kid growing up in the early 70s. I got back into bowhunting a couple of years ago.

I considered a crossbow, but opted for a compound because I saw more advantages to it. I still pick up a gun during gun deer season in Arkansas and Texas and archery hunt before and after gun season. My situation is anecdotal evidence but I don't think you can automatically assume that gun hunters wanting to hunt during archery season will use a crossbow.

RE: please tell me just one negative to crossbows
 

Silent, yes we sometimes do have large winter kills, and they do adjust ALL seasons accordingly.

If you want a quote, I'll give you one....

"I don't want to share the 20% archery allotment of deer with a completely different weapon, because I am an ARCHER and I do not consider crossbow hunters archers.

I do think Crossbow hunters should hunt, and they CAN hunt. Their numbers are lumped in with the firearms season. Has it become clear yet WHY we archers, at least in my area, do not think expanding the definiton of archery to include crossbows is a good thing? We accept that they have similar effective ranges as bows, we accept that some guys love them .. and they DO GET TO HUNT. What we want, and what has been granted to us is 20%. Well that 20% has NO ROOM FOR CROSSBOWS. So, and quite correctly I add, our state has lumped them in with firearm season. If ML's get 20% and archers get 20%, then maybe crossbows deserve 20% .. well you can debate that with the Fish and Game guys .. I believe they realize the weapon lacks the following to reach that number and as such it gets added to firearms season.

For those who are disabled and can not archery hunt.. we make an exception and allow those disabled people to use crossbows during archery season. Women and children are asked to practice with their bows if they desire to hunt archery season just as every other healthy person is. But they still can hunt in a firearm seasone .. or they may have to wait till they are strong enough, or proficient enough to shoot with a bow. But nowhere do we tell them they can't hunt .. in fact there is some animal they can chase from September 1st through December here.

RE: please tell me just one negative to crossbows
 

Well, lets look at that fear.

If that is true .......... how has your archery season been effected in the past 5 years simply with the fluctuations of deer herds ?

Also, you and I both know that your archery hunters numbers have increased over the past 20 years - every year more and more hunters. Have ya'll ever had a decrease in archery season ?


Ever ?

RE: please tell me just one negative to crossbows
 

What sport??? The SPORT of Crossbowing? The sport of Crossbowing is allowed during hunting season in NH. Trying to make Archers call Crossbowing archery is helping the sport of Archery how? It is not allowed at Archery shoots, they are not part of the records we keep, it does not require the same skills Archers practice ... how does that help Archery?

It doesn't. It only helps Crossbowing. So instead of trying to stretch Archery to accomodate a weapon that doesn't fit .. call it what it is.. a Corssbow, and manage it accordingly.

RE: please tell me just one negative to crossbows
 

Yes, while Archery hunters have steadily increased over the seasons; buck and doe allotments have been decreased to reduce archery harvest.

RE: please tell me just one negative to crossbows
 

Last year, archery hunters took 1,854 deer, the third-highest number ever recorded in New Hampshire. "Archery hunting is growing in popularity in New Hampshire," said Pete Lester, Hunter Education Administrator for Fish and Game. "The extended either-sex season offers more opportunities for bow hunters in much of the state."

Welcome to the world of bow hunting. Your hunting season can be expanded by joining the ranks of archery enthusiasts nationwide. Right here in New Hampshire, bowhunters have increased in numbers 10 fold during the last decade alone. The New Hampshire increase (slightly greater than the national average) is due to various reasons:


WOW - is this TRUE ? Because what you fear has already happend and the result ?


Nothing. You have 10 times MORE archery hunters than 10 years ago. Why ? Its not the recurve, and it isn't the longbow - its the compound, isn't it ? Using your argument that crossbows lead to more hunters which lead to drecrease in seasons - its easy to see that compounds have increased archery participation in NH 10X and yet, still long season and liberal bag limits.

What say you on that ?

RE: please tell me just one negative to crossbows
 

No, the sport of ARCHERY


Well, it unites all archers for one thing, plus its putting perspective on what bowhunting is - and isn't. Crossbows in archery season are not bad - you've seen the facts.

You don't think there are crossbow shoots that probably don't allow compounds ? I go to some trad shoots - and we don't allow compounds.

The weapons DOES fit - look no farther than AR, OH, GA, Canada etc etc. - and it IS manages easily by looing at how our states include them and the effect they have on archery season (which is NOT a negative)

RE: please tell me just one negative to crossbows
 

I say exactly what I have said before. With 1,854 deer taken by archery it was still only 20% of the total harvest, or slightly below. If next year all of a sudden Archers took 30% of the total harvest and the total harvest number was greater than desired, or if there was a bad winter .. they would reduce the taking of does and limit archers in other ways to allow the taking of 20% of their harvest goal.

ARCHERY is not CROSSBOWING. Crossbows in no way shape or form make better, enhance or improve archery. For every person that picks up a crossbow instead of a bow, a person is lost from archery. They are not the same, they do not promote archery ... they promote Crossbows and Crossbowing and Crossbow hunters. ALL TOTALLY different from Archers, Archery and Bowhunting.

You meatball.. there are NO archery shoots that allow crossbows!!!! They are NOT considered archery. Just like BOWS are NOT ALLOWED at crossbow shoots.

RE: please tell me just one negative to crossbows
 

MA Jay - what is your argument now, that crossbows would = more deer taken and more archers that would lead to less season and fewer tags ? Even if it increased those number by 1X thats nothing compared to the 10X the numbers compounds have added.

IS your seasons shorter than they were 10 years ago and are your bag limits less ? Simple question - I suspect the answer is a resounding NO - menaing that you're fear of more hunters equaling bad things is absolutely UNTRUE


Can I not say the exact same thing about compounds ? Archery up until a couple decades ago WAS recurves and longbow - why am I forced to accept your stinking compounds ?

See how that argument can go both ways ?

If I proved you wrong there would you recognize that ?

RE: please tell me just one negative to crossbows
 

What???? Are you kidding? Hey, I admit a compound bow is different than a recurve .. but ALL it really is, is a recurve with some funky cams added ... it's a recurve that technology got its hands on. Still shoots the same .. just reduces the weight held at full draw. But still held at full draw.

You are not forced to accept the compound, you have the choice to shoot a recurve or long bow. They all are bows though. But Data... the Crossbow isn't just a "bow" ... hundreds of years ago they made it it's own weapon by mounting it to a stock and added a trigger. How can you really argue that a crossbow is, not just is similar .. but actually IS a bow? Holy crap that is a stretch.

RE: please tell me just one negative to crossbows
 

Below is from the Websters Dictionary (in the future please refer to the type of dictionary in all definition posts)

Archery: The practice or art of shooting with a bow and arrow.

Crossbow: A medieval weapon consisting of a bow set transversely on a wooden stock.

I still don't see the confusion.

RE: please tell me just one negative to crossbows
 

Data,

Do you claim to be an authority on the subject of wildlife population dynamics?

I think before excusing MA Jay's argument you should get your facts straight.

First, it has been proven through the history of mankind that we are not very good at managing sustainable populations of game species. The whitetailed deer for example was brought to near extinction at one point. Even today, fisheries around the world are being depleted at alarming rates including some of the familiar salmon species. This happens even when we are aware it is happening.

To assume that Whitetail populations in all states will react the same to the allowance of crossbows in archery season is the dumbest thing I have heard you try to argue. Truth is crossbow use could bring harvest rates over the threshold of sustainable use. You probably think its a stretch, but this kind of mismanagement happens all of the time. The whole problem is that the general public (and by this I mean hunters) constantly want to take harvest rates to the very limits of what the population is capable of sustaining.

RE: please tell me just one negative to crossbows
 

The cams and letoff and triggered release - all that adds up and makes it a totally different weapon. Its not remotely like shooting a recurve- you don't draw with your fingers, you don't have the full weight of the bow to hold, don't shoot off the shelf, you got the cams giving you the energy, not the limbs - vastly different.

Actually yes - it is and it has been a bow throughout history. Hey, I can look up crossbow in the dictionary ....... can you look up compound bow ?

Commericalization leads to the dpletion - not sport hunting.

To assume other states would react 180 degrees OPPOSITE of the states that HAVE allowed crossbows is kinda dumb, isn't it ? You pretend like the stats from AR, OH, Ga and all don't matter. Why ? It DOES matter - unles you have study that shows how crossbows destroy the deer herds ? Do you ? Or are you guessing ? Because I'm using the stats from the mentioned states to back my argument.

What are you using other than old wives tales ??

RE: please tell me just one negative to crossbows
 

So since you "suspect" something it is absolutely UNTRUE? Data, I hope you are careful with this power you have over reality.

Yes, archers have increased over the years... and their affect on the deer population has changed. Right now that means we have reduced opportunities on does in some areas forcing only buck kills. It is a fact, add more archers during archery seaosn and more limits will be imposed unless the population of deer grows. Which has also slowly been happening in conjunction with increase in archers.

Maybe I can try this .. I suspect that Crossbows are not considered Archery, so they ABSOLUTELY will not be allowed during archery season. Holy crap it worked.. they aren't. I have the power to!

RE: please tell me just one negative to crossbows
 

Perhaps because you are trying to compare the definiton of an object with an action?

RE: please tell me just one negative to crossbows
 

damn you must hate compound for reducing your deer hunting opportunities then - right ?

RE: please tell me just one negative to crossbows
 

No I don't think it is dumb to consider the possibility of a completely different reaction to xbows. Why do you think states are managed differently? Why do you think states are divided into zones and areas? (I was going to answer this but I would rather here the crap that's gonna start rolling out of your mouth)

Old wives tales! Now I know you are full of nothing but opinions.

RE: please tell me just one negative to crossbows
 

This is what it all boils down to, elitist B/S...stop pretending it dosen't