datamax

Matt / PA - I just reread that twice and do you know what you're arguing for, don't you ? Compound and crossbows do not fit your post - recurves and longbows do.

I can take your compound and shoot 3" groups with it at 30 yards. Give me 5 mintues to get the feel. Can you take my recurve and do the same ? That should tell you volumes on easier/better.

BOWFANATIC - you ever hunted with a crossbow ? A recurve or longbow ? A compound ? When its all said and done, regardless of which of those you use, you STILL have to get within 20 yards. I'd hazard to say longer shots are almost always the product of compound shooter - see some ofthe western threads on other sites where 50-60 yard shots are common.

The mentality HAS changed - with the compound bow in hand. Don't forget about Chuck Adams shooting a beeded Coues deer at 63 yards. A 100 pound buck, bedded down - AT 63 YARDS.


Go to Bowsite and read Ricardo's polar bear hunt. In retrospect he says now all his big game hunting is done with a compound - NOT a longbow. Why ? Its easy to figure out - its EASIER and gives him a GREATER chance of killing animals.

Yessir - the mentality you fear is already here, isn't it ?

Matt / PA

The important word in that (and all of your posts) is "I" can......."I" can........didn't realize you were speaking for every man woman and child out there who can just pick up any bow and shoot 3" groups at 30 yards. Because it's easy for YOU, yep it's easy for everyone. What you picked up a compound bow the first day and shot a bullseye on everyshot since? I could do that with a crossbow.

It took almost 2 years of practice with that kid I'm teaching to have him really start to get a good repeatable anchor, follow through, grip, ect ect.........and he's proud of his accomplishment in shooting his 3 to 5" groups at 20 yards now. You should see him jump up and down when he hits 2 arrows together, and the fun he gets trying to shoot accurately at 30 yards.

What would your crossbow have taught him? "Here ya go kid, heck you don't even need a new bow of your own, you can just borrow mine, it's already sighted in, just point and squeeze the trigger."........"What you're a little shaky? Here rest it on the table and you'll be just as accurate as you were shooting your .22 from the bench rest." "See that? Bullseye first shot.......boy you're a natural!"[:'(]

Like I said, instant satisfaction, gratification.......and ultimately boredom from too much success right from the start.
A compound has the ability to make me and you and every archer more accurate? Yeah tell that to Byron Furgeson, or Howard Hill.......We get as good as our practice will allow, some are naturals and pic it up quicker than others, but your crossbow removes that part entirely from the equation.
Step right up, point and shoot.........pass it around so everyone has a chance to hit the bullseye.

You don't speak for everybody, obviously you are a good shot, I'm a good shot, and many guys here are.........there's a reason they come here, either they are generally the top rung and this is their passion.........or they are beginners seeking advice because guess what? Not everyone is you , or me, or Chuck Adams killing Cous Deer at 70 yards.

You have this unbeleivable view that your opinions are somehow devinely right and infallable, able to be defended at every corner?........You're kidding right?
You pick and choose what to argue, and defend, and quite frankly it all sounds pretty silly anyway.

How about you break this article down for me.......It highlights everything you've been saying as to how similar a compound a crossbow are.
http://www.newyorkbowhunters.com/New_Folder/xbow.htm
Boy we are all ashamed that we didn't believe you!.......you were right. LOL.

I'm curious as to your position, and also why you think WE as the majority need to defend our position? YOU need to convince US and you are failing miserably......the only place you are not failing in your arguments is in your own mind.

Whitetail Stalker

I think that it is a lazy way out of bow hunting. You do not have to practice like you do with a comound or recuve bow(10-15 arrows per day) and you do not have to practice form an consistancy at all unlike a real bow where you have to work hard to get decent groupes constantly. That is just my .02 cents.

datamax

Matt / PA - you REALLY think compounds are hard ? Seriously ? If you do you're kidding yourself. They are - by DESIGN - easy to shoot. Why do you put pins, peeps, use release aids and drop away rests, keep the high letoff etc etc on them ? It makes them EASY.

People love easy.

I GAURANTEE if I developed a gadget to attach to your bow that would allow you to reduce your groups by 50% you'd buy it. Why ? Human nature to have BETTER and EASIER without any effort.

The kid it amazingly took 2 years to shoot a compound would have hunted 2 years ago with a crossbow until he got good enough with a compound. In other words, in the short lives we have he lost 2 years he could have been bowhunting.

True - some ARE natural shots - but not with compounds. Compounds are mechanical, they are designed to make everyone good shooters. I mean, c'mon, its robotic - you draw, put the pin in the peep on the target and squeeze the trigger. Thats it - the bow does everything else. Remember, I've crossbow shot, compound shot for years and for the past 3 years I've recurve/longbow shot. I got a very good handle on how difficult the 3 are - and how easy they are and how they all differ.

Now to your anti-crossbow website. Of course they didn't recognize the huge differences between compounds/recurve - they intentionally left all that out.

I agree 100% with that. What this is saying that compounders do NOT want to take the time and effort to learn to master a recurve/longbow, so they shoot compound because they are inherently EASIER. Compounders do not want to put forth the time and effort and they want to shoot BETTER and EASIER

You know that is true. Thats why you choose a compound. Its why I chose a compound in Kansas last fall. It will be why I choose one again too if I ever do.

So please, PLEASE tell me how my choosing and a weapon that just makes it a bit easier and better is wrong ? You cannot choose easier and better yourself and then condemn me for taking it one step further can you ? Its hypocritical to do that. I know that, you know that. So I asked at the beginning of the thread for just one negative crossbows have given archery.

Just one. And not one in 18 pages ? If crossbows were bad, you'd see "deer season reduced" or " way too many hunters" or " reduced tags " ...... something.

And yet - not one has surfaced.

The below is 100% true and can be applied to compounds, can't it ?

The compound is the answer for today's opportunistic hunter who lacks the dedication and commitment required to be a bowhunter. The compound is simply a superior weapon that is much easier to use than archery equipment and therefore should not be allowed in any archery season or archery only areas.

Cougar Mag

Brad, its amazing that you of all people are trying to defend allowing crossbows in regular archery seasons by ridiculing and attacking compounds. You try to preach its easy for all to shoot compound bows, yet you are trying to say by not allowing crossbows into regular archery seasons, that its denying a few women and kids the chance to hunt. If the compound is so easy(in your own words), then those women and kids should have no problem. Why then do you want to make it easier for them by using crossbows? A responsible and ethical hunter knows his limits. A hunter in the making will realize their goals and appreciate reaching their goal with practice and perseverance. Picking up something that takes little to no practice will not teach anyone the appreciation and dedication that archery/bowhunting was and still is.

Adapting and maturing is part of the process of hunting, no matter what weapon is used. Its too bad that you have to resort to attacking something in order to defend something.

BOWFANATIC

Crossbow - no , recurve - yes , longbow - no , compound - yes.

That may be your personal goal and mine as well but it's definately not everyones. When I visit the outdoor ranges around here during the summer the 40yd and 50yd lanes are open 99% of the time unless a x-bow shooter is there.


The key word there is "western" threads! Totally different ballgame!

I'm not argueing that the "mentality has changed" because it has in my opinion but your using poor examples. Fred Bear took longer shots than that with traditional equipment. So I think it's safe to say the compound bow in itself isn't responsible for "long range shots" in bowhunting terms.

You also make it sound like anyone and everyone that goes from traditional gear to a compound can pick one up and be shooting like a pro in ten minutes.
You dont visit the ranges much do you?
Even with kisser buttons , peep sights , $200 sights , $100 releases , it still takes practice and dedication. You cant argue that period!!
Does it take more practice and dedication with traditional gear? Yes. Nobody can argue that!!
It seems to me that this is just another of your threads that beats a mile around the bush just to point out that traditional gear (your chosen gear) takes alot more practice and dedication than compounds.

The benefits of allowing x-bows during archery season? If those bowhunters (<used lightly) that show up at the range a week before season turn to x-bows then maybe there will be alot less wounded deer.

The negatives of allowing x-bows during archery season? Like I mentioned before??? Archery hunting itself is already to the point of not being considered a challenge anymore by many. Allowing x-bows into archery season will just be the final nail in the coffin.
Thats my opinion!! There really is no need to argue that point with me as I can show you countless threads over the last five years here that have formed my opinion.

Now , whats with the sig pics? Are you going through a mid life crisis?

datamax

Draw weight is what limits women and children Cougar, thats obvious. But taking your rational - why don't compound shooters use recurves/longbows ? Equipment choice ? Ahhhhhhhhh, but you don't want others to choose equipment other than what YOU justify. Irony at its best.

Remember - I am NOT against compounds. They have tuned archery into what it is today. I simply see them for what they are - an easy to use wannabe bow that technically IS a bow in the way it performs by definition - and used by people who don't want to take the time to learn to shoot a longbow/recurve. COmpounders want easier, faster, more accurate, better - dude I know, I've been there ! If I were to go back to compounds I'd want the latest and greatest that would allow me to get as good as I could, as fast as I could get there with as little practice as possible,

All compounders want that - its a tech thing.

Crossbows are simply another way to quick and easy. No different than compound except they're a bit more easy in many ways though they lack the accuracy downrage, they're heavy, loud etc.

Theres truth in what I say - like it or not. Look where compounds have come in 10 years and imagine where they'll be in 10 years. People still wanting faster, quieter, shorter, lighters, better, more accurate, easier. Thats the way of it


Oh Dude, do you know how many compounders fall into that category ? Even some recurve/longbow shooters aren't fit to be hunting is accuracy is a requirement !

So you admit compounds have already come too far ? Are you lobbying to ban them ? Are you speaking out saying that compounds have come too far ? Have you bought any techy stuff for your bows lately ?

Like the analogy earlier - the lion is out, you know this, and the tiger is saying " why not let me out ? the lion is doing a lot of damage already. And you're saying well, the lion is a good thing but even though you're very close to a lion, you have those cosmetic stripes and well, the stripes make you different, so no, can't let you out even though you're bascially the same kind of large, carnivorous feline."

How crazy is that ? Cage them both, or let them both go. Anything less is hypocritcal

Want me to change it to this ??



Keith Roets
11 years old
This was his first deer and was taken with a crossbow.

willyqbc

I don't post up a whole lot, but Datamax I will tell you the one true NEGATIVE to crossbows.......
.........the use of crossbows in archery seasons has for years DIVIDED us as a hunting community. Arguments and debates like the ones on this thread DIVIDE us as a hunting community. Nowhere else will you find the use of any one weapon cause such a SPLIT among hunters. These weapons are just providing another "DIVIDE" for those would would wish to "divide and conquer" us. Is it the crossbow or people who use them's fault? Absolutely not, but it can't be denied that their use in archery seasons causes huge amounts of argument and infighting amongst ourselves.....that fact cannot be denied. And that my friend is truly the biggest NEGATIVE to the existance and use of crossbows in archery season.

just my opinion
Chris

PS - just to be clear I am not a X-bow hater, in fact i support their use here in British Columbia because they are a legal means of harvest.

BOWFANATIC

But yet you go on record later sayin.....

Unfortunately I know there's way too many!! If half of them switched to a x-bow and stopped wounding deer because of it , I guess that would be a good thing.

Compounds are already allowed in every states general archery season. Why would I "lobby to ban them" unless I was a member of PETA?
Crossbows however are NOT allowed in every states general archery season.
Are you lobbying to allow them during archery season? And I'm not talking about a thread at a hunting forum. Are you "lobbying" to allow them?
If so , why?
I have no problems with a seperate crossbow season. Afterall , the overall majority of states have a high enough deer population to withstand another season.

So your saying you feel that compounds have already tainted the general archery season so why not ruin the rest of it by allowing crossbows as well?
How pessimistic is that?

I quoted that one for you (and in bold I might add) because you know full well it's your only motivation for even starting a thread like this!!!! Gives you another chance to point out the differences between compound shooters and your sacred recurve.

Does it really need to continue?

datamax

Well yes, it has, but its not the crossbows thats done it, its the compounders that have. Score again for the argument that compounds are the problem every bit as much so as crossbows.


I don't care what kind of bow a person uses - really I don't - because I'm froma state that allows ALL archery equipment in archery season.

Here's what compounds have done. They have resulted in bows that shoot faster, quieter, better and more accurately with less and less practice required every year they exist. They are also responsible for an absolute BOOM in archery participation. When they first came out, everyone was complaining about the fears of what they would od to archery season, not at all unlike the current fears of crossbows. And what happened ? Archery participation boomed because of them.

The only ill's that one can point out on compounds of course is that they're so much easier to use and an element has been lost on what the archery of old (recurve/longbows) was like. Is that good ? Is that bad ? I submit that its really NEITHER as long as there's no negative impact on the herds. On a personal level, I do feel that compounds have come too far, as well as modern muzzleloader that are anything BUT a muzzleloader except that they are loose powder and single shot. You know what I mean ?

But thats a personal belief, and not at all reason to want to restrict archery season to recurve/longbows only, is it ?

And thus we come full circle to crossbows, and the unfounded fears people have against them. We KNOW those fears are false because of several states that allow crossbows and not one single fear has come true in them. The seasons are just as long, the bag limits just as liberal - not one single bad thing comes from crossbows, do they ?

Now, if its a fear about equipment becoming too easy ? HA ! Look at compounds. If its about technology ? Look at compounds. If its about bows shooting better, farther, easier ......... look no further than the compound. What those arguments argue is ALREADY HERE in the form of the compound bow.

Arthur P realizes this, LBR does - most people do. But most people also shoot the compound and don't want to put 2 + 2 together.

BOWFANATIC theres truth to that, but its an argument that is not a winning one. It would be disasterous to try and set up archery based on how well a person shoots. The best thing to do ? Allow bows - like the compound and like the crossbows - and let people decide whats best for them.

For a moment lets assume a big reversal and archery season is now longbow/recurves only. What would I have done last year in Kansas ? I'd have continued hunting with my longbow, as poorly as I was shooting, and likely shot at and missed/wounded a deer. But because I could choose a compound, I made the decision and it was a good one.

A person in Arkansas that for whatever reason can choose a crossbow to archery hunt with. Thats never resulted in any negative impacts to our herd either. Can that be anything BUT a good thing ?

No need to, they're legal here.

What I am "lobbying" against is the unfounded notions that crossbows are bad. If they're bad, TELL ME how. Give me a reason why they're any worse than the compound bow. Show me a stat, throw me a bone - but don't give me an argument that can be applied to compounds and say thats your reason. Back to the lion anaology - you want the lion free, and you want to cage the tiger based only on a cosmetic stripes - knowing that the tiger can't do anything more (because some states allow the tiger to be free too)

I personally don't have a problem with the easy to use compound. Why then would I have a problem with crossbows ? We've got easier, whats wrong with a bit MORE easy ? The compound is vastly different than a recurve, whats wrong with a bit more different than a compound ? The difference might be higher kills, more bowhunters ? If so, those are not BAD things. Bad things would be herd impacting, less season, less bag limits. Well, look at the states that allow crossbows - has it happened ? If the answer is NO then that fear is unfounded and you're back to a personal thing on easy vs easy.

What you nore Matt / PA nor anyone can say is that the kid in the above photo wasn't a bowhunter. Ya'lls argument is that crossbows aren't bows, they're not archery ....... why don't you step forward and say the kid shot his first buck by cheating, by shooting a deer in archery season with a gun ? That he choose a route that Matt /PA's web site there calls " who are not willing to put forth the time and effort to learn to shoot archery equipment proficiently. " that maybe he was " opportunistic hunter who lacks the dedication and commitment required to be a bowhunter "

Go ahead. I'm waiting. Ya'll cannot change your core argument because of a kids success can you ? You drew the lines - the crossbow cannot magically change from a bow to a non-bow when it crosses state line, and the motive for using one cannot change either. The boy in the photo chose a crossbow because he likely couldn't shoot the poundage needed to shoot a compound/longbow/recurve. The crossbow allowed him to archery hunt anyway because for him it was easier, and he was more accurate with it.

For you, a compound is easier and more accurate than a recurve/longbow, isn't it ?


hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Is that a bad thing to say ? I'm not sugar coating anything. Guns are the easier thing to kill deer with. If you want to have the BEST chance at killing deer, get a gun. Muzzleloaders are pretty easy to but single shot. A compound bow is right there with a crossbow as far as how easy they are. Recurves/longbows are the hardest - but because of that they also account for more deer shot at, missed and wounded.

Those are things that are true, like it or not. I choose a recurve (today) and with I'm I'm more likely to shoot at, wound or miss a deer than if I were shooting a compound. ANd with a compound I'd have a greater chance of missing/wounding than if i'd have chosen a rifle.

So I'm not really bashing compounds at all, I'm just pointing out the differences that exist. Ethics is a personal thing - it cannot be legislated and it cannot be tied to a weapon and it cannot be controlled.