Hiawatha

Yes it was amazing. I am aware the mass herds of buffalo are gone but in all honesty I think they should revisit some of their old hunting practices. If they are given special hunting rights how is the animal population supposed to hold up with todays hunting technology. Not saying they have to go on horse back but i believe they should be restricted to archery only. If they want to rifle hunt buy a tag like the rest of us. Just my opinion.

muley69

I am genuinely pleased to see your involvement with alcohol related issues on reservations. We will probably disagree on the reservation issue as a whole , however, as I feel the reservation system needs to be obliterated. Recently, in Browning, MT the Bureau of Indian Affairs took over the police and court sytems on the Blackfeet Indian Reservation due to widespread corruption. I believe the entire "dependant soveriegn nation" concept is ridiculas. Either your a nation on your own with absoluetly no aid in any fashion from the United States, or your an American period. I don't think a comfortable median can be reached. I will admit that the obliteration of the reservation sytem could result in the eventual loss of all indian heritage, and that is something I'm not intrested in seeing. Living in Montana is great, not just for the hunting, but for the tremedous sense of history we have. I live but a stones throw from the Lewis & Clark trail. The native tribes are a huge part of that history. I have been to several Lewis & Clark sites, Little Bighorn Battle field, Crow, Northern Cheyenne, Flathead, Blackfeet, Ft. Peck, Ft. Belknap, Pine Ridge, and lower Brule indian reservations. My father in law has been dealing in indian artifacts for over thirty years and even supplied some of the costumes and accessories for movies including Dances with Wolves. The indian history is a very big part of our family.

mjqood0

I've been reading this post over the last few days telling myself not to get involved... But I find a few points here I need to address.

First off, let's drop the education issue. I don't find it relevant here at all. First hand knowledge and reading of books can make people, degree or not, educated. Plus -- how many of us have degrees in hunting, yet we share a wealth of information on this board!

Second:
In a time of turmoil for our country, I think you make an excellent point. This country was founded as "One nation, under God..." and over the past year, we have made court rulings to remove the God part. Lets do our best to preserve the "One Nation" part. [soapbox]I'm sick of all the bellyaching of different cultures in this country. If you don't like it, you're free to leave -- so don't complain![/soapbox] I've done service projects through my church to help fix houses on Native American reservations in South Dakota. Talk about an eye opening. I got the impression that the "Natives" were no more Native American than I (1/16th by best guess). And yet, they have totally different rules and laws within the reservation. I was there no more than a week each time, but the amount of alcoholism and other social diseases was frightening. I don't want to start a debate -- simply give my impressions. (I know. Wrong thread for that! )

And finally:
I too enjoyed the small bits of indian heritage that I found while on the reservations. I actually got to watch a rain dance -- something I feel very honored to have been able to see. And yes, while these traditions must be preserved, I think cultural societies and other such social support systems could work. It is really a difficult issue entirely.

But...

In going back to the intention of the original post, I too enjoy marveling at the image stirred up by thinking of the legends of the indians and their hunting skill. It's an interesting subject and one which I spent considerable time debating in my head while hunting yesterday, due mainly to this thread!

muley69

Hiawatha, you are right on target with your post. This would go a long way in game management and conservation, while at the same time embracing the true spirit on the indian culture. The problem again is that reservations make their own game laws, and have there own tag system.

Mjgood: An insightful post, there is simply nothing like seeing the culture and rez system first hand. Secondly, I brought my educational back ground up only because I was told I need some "education" in this subject. However, lets not be to quick to dismiss ones education. College taught me a lot about conservation that I simply would've never known by hunting. I think we can all agree that we prefer a doctor with a college degree when we go see one. I am surprised how many people seem uptight about degrees though.

BOWFANATIC

On the contrary , I actually agree with you. The Menominee nation has certain funding programs which aide only those who live on the reservation. I along with many others feel it's counterproductive. It deturs one from moving from the reservation and starting a new life in America. Many elders fail to accept the fact that one can start a new and good life for their family off of the reservation while still keeping our heritage alive.[>:]

Speaking of Lewis & Clark , we also have some history here of them traveling down the Fox river which runs through my home town. My father actually has an old musket that was found on the Fox river many years ago and has been dated back in the 1800's.
I have been considering coming to Montanna for a pow wow for the last few years , guess I should get off my duff and just do it.

muley69

Bowfanatic: Well then bow what is our argument? Believe it or not, I'm not sure I can see how the native culture can be kept intact if the reservations are obliterated. In fact, I have lamented this issue for a long time. Yet I know in my heart it must be done in order to give current tribes a real opportunity.

I am amazed that this thread has developed into such a great discussion. I really thought when I logged on tonight that it would be down to me being a racist, which it seemed close to at one point. Some of the insights and thoughts of the posters on this thread are amazing. Katbones you should be proud.

mjqood0

Thank you. I truely enjoyed my time on the reservation. It was an eye-opening experience. In re-reading the whole thread again, I do see how education got brought up.

Again, I agree. I just don't think an educated person = a correct person. I too have a degree and am working on a masters. It has nothing to do with this forum however, (Computer Science) and therefore, I don't hold much weight in it for my discussions here, aside for the fact that I hope I can clearly communicate my thoughts and ideas. Furthermore, a person who has earned a degree may or may not have more information on a particular subject than a person with no degree. My father was one of the most intelligent men I've ever met and knew more about the Civil War than anyone I've come accross. But it was through careful studying and the reading of thousands of books that he came by this knowledge. Not from classes. Now, I will consent that a person who has a degree in history with a concentration on the Civil War could indeed acquire much the same knowledge. In that sense, degrees do hold some weight.

This thread has turned into an insightful and interesting discussion! Congrats Katbones!

Hiawatha

Problem here is they have no tags, no laws, no seasons. Its a free for all on anything that walks. Can hunt what they want, when they want, where they want, with what weapon they want. Hmmm not my fault i am not native, i was born that way. Why am i treated differrent because of my heritage? Rasicm? I strongly think so.....

ir655

GOING BACK TO THE ORIGINAL TPOIC OF THIS POST....I think that the indiands were very good marksmen, dropping buffalo from horse backs.

Lady Forge

I ask would you as an American feel more pride in your College Degree and Independence if your school of Higher Education was free of all Goverment funding and subsidies.... Would you feel more pride in being an American if all Goverment programs were dissolved like the pride enjoyed by the americans ages ago... for example no more small buisness goverment benifits etc........?
[quote][yet we are the bad ones. I assure you that when they fought each other over land, they were not nearly as compassionate toward each other. /quote]
Surely you dont implie that the whiteman was more compassionate towards the indians whom lands they were stealing, women they were raping and killing, children they were mutilating and murdering, ponies they were slaghtering than rival tribes were when they fought over lands. If you are then would you state your examples that you base this belief on?
Did the Native American Indians have Smallpox, Cholira etc before the white mans arrival ? ...No... Yes the Native American Indians had their share of disease and problems that were compounded and added to by the arrival of the whiteman.
My mother is 1/2 Cherokee and 1/2 French.... and she lives in the Butte Area........... and we hold land in the Butte and Whitehall area's.... My Father was German , Irish and Cherokee...Studying it is one thing and living it is another.... both have different perspectives and some are shared.
When you paid for your higher education was your school recieving any Goverment funding subsidees... CHANCES ARE.....very few colleges in this day and age are free of goverment funding... so once again I refer to the question of pride and independence you refer to in removing goverment funding... is okay to fund the whiteman with goverment funding and yet deny the Native American Indians the same benifits.... So would you deny the Native American Indians the Benifit of Goverment Funding in their pusuit of Higher Education? Where would you draw the line in goverment benifits to the Native American Indians?
This may be your belief ..... I dont agree with it and a good many Native American Indians I know would take offense to your statement......... To say that a people in general are without pride, without hope and without morality sounds to be a generalization and a bit of an INSULT.
The white man slaghtered the Bisen to the point the great herds began to dissapear from the plains... this was not done by Native American Indians running Bisen off the cliffs.... the Native American Indians had over 52 different uses for the Bisen they killed... How many uses do you believe the whiteman had for the Bisen they killed at that time?
The stories you tell of the drunken Native American Indians can be found on a daily bases in the rest of the world.... they are not only indemick to the reservations... pick up a paper or listen to the news it is saddly everwhere in the world these days.I do not proclaim to have all the answers but I HOPE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!