Len in Maryland

We did some more impact tests on the AXIS STs with the 'HIT' inserts. We had tested them with PowerBond and 5 minute epoxy, which is what we use on all our carbon arrows. The insert didn't hold on impact. I was told by the Rep that the factory 'highly' recommends using 24 hour epoxy. Should have read the instructions thoroughly. []

We did the 24 hour epoxy and now they hold up as good as a standard insert using PowerBond; but, it takes extra measures for the 'HIT' to equal standard epoxy or PowerBond on standard inserts.

So, if you're going to use the AXIS ST arrows, make sure you use the epoxy supplied and INSIST on a 24 hour epoxy from your Dealer if you're not sure.

One thing I pointed out to the Rep is that any loose point could be catastrophic. Therefore, there are two major points I recommend in using the AXIS ST arrows over other all carbon arrows if you want the best results:
1) You MUST use 24 hour epoxy
2) You MUST keep your tips tight

Hope this helps.

ShadowAce

Thanks Len. My proshop also suggests laying them flat for the 24 hr drying time to make sure the insert doesn't move before drying.

Len in Maryland

ShadowAce:

There are SOOOO many things that can happen to this sort of operation when using 24 hour epoxy unless the assembly is fixtured. The 'HIT' system is not only, IMPO, less desirable for the application over the standard inserts, but it is a 'BLIND' assembly operation. The procedure for assembly is time consuming and is susceptible to error and movement during the curing operation. Just suppose someone bumps the table and knocks all the arrows on the floor. Just suppose someone stands them on end as many do with standard nocks. And I'm sure there are some other 'just suppose' issues.

Given that it is right now the only alternative, we have no choice. The tools that are provided can be used successfully; but, what is the learning curve for the average/general user? By discussing this assembly procedure at length, I hope that more caution is taken and that this will help eliminate problems to many.

Yes, I'm very skeptical. After all, this is a complete change from what we've been successfully using with aluminum and carbons for many years. In fact, I'm a big fan of the outsert type of point adapters. This design 'contains' the inertia/force of the arrow following the tip and keeps the butt end of the shaft from shattering. Many people don't like them for various reasons; but, they're stronger than anything I've ever used. And, all you really had to do was sand/clean the diameter and use something as simple as 5 minute epoxy.

I'm still searching for an alternative to the 'HIT'. Until I find it, the 'HIT' will have to be used. I've found an alternative for the nock end. I like the concept/design of the shafts and find them to be very strong. Now to get a good straight set of shafts.

Matt / PA

Len,
Do you think we are going to see the next "Space Race" in archery with regards to this style shaft? Meaning since it's obvious that Easton is having at least "issues" with the design and there is obvious room for improvement both in design and quality, do you think we're going to see a "skinny" offering of some sort from most manufacturers by the next ATA?

You just know that there are other companies hearing the criticisms thinking........"HMmmmmmm if we just do this"

I think 2005 is going to be an interesting year for carbon arrows.

By the way you and Jeff have pretty much sealed my order for some more A/C/C 3-60's for this next season.

Thanks for sharing your findings.

PABowhntr

Len,

Thank you for finally posting some of your findings regarding the Axis. I have been eagerly waiting ever since you first started dropping hints.

So, if I am understanding you correctly then if the consumer uses the glue supplied in the fashion that it is recommended then the HIT insert is as functional as a standard insert though the issue of loose points becomes more important...yes? Can you explain the reason for the latter part of my statement?

Second, if a standard insert or an outsert were used on an Axis shaft then what would your opinion of them be?

Personally, I tend to agree with you. Some of the "skinny" carbons that I used in the past with the outsert provided some excellent penetration and the durability was very good as well. It was always just a pain to get good fletching clearance with them......and I seem to remember some problems with the linear (vs. crossweave) fibers....comments?

JOE PA

I can see where a loose point (not tight to the front of the shaft so impact is transferred to the front of the arrow shaft) could seriously test the integrity of the bond between the HIT and the inside of the arrow shaft. All or most of the impact force would be trasferred to the insert, which has no bearing surface on the front of the shaft itself. The HIT is only kept from being slammed back into the shaft by the strength of the epoxy bond. If the point is tight, the front of the shaft should take most of the impact. I'm sure Len can put it into much better, and more specific terms.

Len in Maryland

Matt:

Asking that question is the same as asking whether or not every bow company will be laminating their limbs next year to copy Merlin. All the manufacturers at the ATA Show were examinining Merlin limbs at the show, but will they copy them??? Anyone's guess. One thing to consider is how many jumped on the larger diameter shafts for target shooting. Since hunting is a much larger market -- hmmm?????

A/C/C is your choice? They faired rather badly in the impact testing when using the tools recommended; but, they are straight! Now, what does this mean to someone like me, who is a hunter. Since I shoot and shoot at () a lot of deer each year, I want an arrow that will go through/past () a deer, hit the ground or an obstruction, and survive for the next shot. This is why I really want the AXIS ST shafts for my quiver. The wrapped carbon IS a better design over the pultruded shafts. It's just overcoming some obstacles that takes time. After all, it is a new shaft, and like everything new, it may take some time to 'get it right'.

Right now I'd love to find an 'outsert' for the front of the AXIS ST shaft. I can't tell you how many times I've changed the damaged outsert on an arrow, only to shoot another deer with that same arrow. The 5 minute epoxy, which I use exclusively on them, allows their removal/replacement. Right now that will not be possible with using 24 hour epoxy with AXIS ST shafts. Actually, it's usually not possible when you use 5 minute epoxy on the standard wrapped shafts. If you only get a few shots a year while hunting, then what I've just stated is irrelevent.

Jeff:

I really want to use the AXIS ST shafts as well. I see and hear stories about their endurance and straightness yield. The loose points will allow the the point to pivot and therefore, when hitting a harder object could put undue stress on that portion of the shaft in front of the insert. This could, especially over time, damage that portion of the 'unprotected' shaft. This may or may not be critical. Time and testing will tell.

As for your second question, as I stated above, I would LOVE to see a standard insert or outsert for the AXIS ST shafts. To reiterate what I posted earlier: "I'm still searching for an alternative to the 'HIT'. Until I find it, the 'HIT' will have to be used. I've found an alternative for the nock end. I like the concept/design of the shafts and find them to be very strong. Now to get a good straight set of shafts."

Yes, there were/are some negatives about the pultruded shafts. Learning to deal with them is not that difficult. IMO the positives outweigh the negatives for my purposes mentioned above.

Keep in mind that we're always in search of that 'GOLDEN' arrow and many other 'GOLDEN' things in life. By voicing our opinions on everything in life, changes for the better can and usually do happen. That's the beauty of a 'free' society and I'll take this moment to thank all our Armed Forces for that freedom.

Good luck and good shooting to all.

PABowhntr

Well Len, I am not Jeff but you answered my questions....

Thank you.

Len in Maryland

Opps! I've been corresponding with Jeff a lot about this subject. Sorry.[&o]

Rack-attack

Unfortunately I think we will. Of course this will deplete manufacturers efforts on actually making a STRAIGHT, CONSISTANTLY SPINED shaft because after all - thats not what sells arrows.

When these companies cannot make there current offerings the way they should - I cringe at what will come

Just make the damn things straight - then move on


Thanks Len.

P.S. - I rolled a few dozen Axis shafts and was not impressed