state forced antler restrictions
#31
Typical Buck
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 970
Likes: 0
From: Mertztown, PA
The bag limit (in Pennsylvania) on does and the specific antler restrictions vary from county to county depending on density and other factors. I'm not sure I'd call that a "one policy" method.
I would be more comfortable (or maybe more apprehensive?) with Alt's plan if I was able to see how the numbers are tabulated. The experience of hunters, even experienced and aggressive hunters, points to an inaccuracy in how these numbers are arrived at.
Fritz
#33
Nontypical Buck
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,512
Likes: 0
From: Warren PA USA
Yes we have cwd, but it is in the lower part of the state, and because our doe to buck ratio is so bad I believe antler point restrictions would cause many more does to be shot, therefore reducing the population.And besides, the areas that have cwd are governed by different hunting practices than the other parts of the state.
#34
Typical Buck
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 586
Likes: 0
From: Fort Collins, Colorado
I think it is good. Texas has been doing it for years...works for them. Everyone I've heard from in PA.....they like it. I've seen quite a few big deer come out of PA this past season.
I live in Illinois....we don't seem to need it. I'd be for it though if the deer herd ever was hurting.
j
I live in Illinois....we don't seem to need it. I'd be for it though if the deer herd ever was hurting.
j
#35
Nontypical Buck
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,512
Likes: 0
From: Warren PA USA
Just passing along some info from a professional(Kip Adams) about buck:doe ratios.
Kip's Korner, Sex Ratios, November 2003
Hunters often ask about the sex ratio of the deer herd where they hunt and then compare that ratio to herds in other areas or states. There are a lot of misunderstandings regarding sex ratios and this article will help clarify some misconceptions. First, what is a sex ratio, what animals are used to determine it and when is it measured? The sex ratio is a number describing the number of adult females for each adult male in a population. The number includes deer 1.5 years and older (all deer except fawns) and describes the population immediately preceding the hunting season. When comparing ratios, make sure you are referring to pre-hunt adult sex ratios. These are the ratios biologists most often refer to, and they should not be confused with observed or post-hunt ratios as the latter are nearly always heavily skewed towards females.
I often hear hunters, outdoor writers, and even biologists refer to 10:1 or 15:1 doe:buck ratios. These cannot be pre-hunt adult ratios because as long as the deer herd is reproducing, the ratio cannot become more skewed than 5 does per buck. The biological maximum is about 5:1 because even in the absence of female harvest, 15-20% of adult females in the population will die each year from old age, vehicles, disease, predators, etc. Also, about 50% of fawns born each year are male (it's actually slightly more than 50%), thus the sex ratio gets an annual correction when fawns are recruited. This concept is easier to understand with an example.
Let's say a hypothetical population contains 120 adult deer (fawns not included).
Pre-hunt population = 100 does and 20 bucks (this is a 5:1 ratio)
During the hunting season let's say hunters kill 90% (18) of the bucks and 0% (0) of the does.
Hunting mortality 0 does and 18 bucks
Post-hunt population = 100 does and 2 bucks (50:1, heavily skewed after the hunt)
Natural mortality gets added next. Since there are very few bucks left in the population, very few will die from other causes. We'll say 1 of the 2 remaining bucks dies. However, 15-20% of the does will die from natural causes. We'll be conservative and use 15% (15 does).
Natural mortality 15 does and 1 buck
Remaining population = 85 does and 1 buck (85:1, the ratio is still heavily skewed)
We'll be conservative again and say each of the remaining does has only 1 fawn. That means there will be 85 (about 43 buck and 42 doe) fawns. These won't be added to the adult population until the following year but last year's fawns get added this year. For simplicity, we'll assume last year's population had the same number of fawns and immigration and emigration are equal.
Recruitment 42 does and 43 bucks
Pre-hunt population = 127 does and 44 bucks (this is a 3:1 ratio)
This example is simplified but it demonstrates that pre-hunt adult sex ratios can't become as skewed as many think. However, from a biological perspective, a 3:1 ratio is heavily skewed and reflects poor management on the deer population. This 3:1 ratio could lead to hunters observing 10 or more antlerless deer (females and fawns) per buck.
The sex ratio by itself however, can be misleading. When discussing sex ratios it's important to determine the age structure of the buck population. For example, you can have 2 populations that both have 2:1 ratios. One population has only yearling bucks, the second has bucks from 1.5-5.5 years making up the ratio. Which population is better managed and which would you rather hunt? Just because a herd has a good sex ratio doesn't mean it is properly managed. Prior to antler restrictions and liberalized doe harvests, Pennsylvania was considered to be among the poorest managed states in the country. Even then, Pennsylvania's state-wide sex ratio was <3:1. The deer population was skewed towards females but an even bigger problem was nearly all the bucks were yearlings. Pennsylvania's new seasons are designed to tighten the sex ratio and increase the age structure of the buck population. You may never get a 1:1 ratio but well managed herds will have <2 adult does per adult buck. The state of New Hampshire has a successful deer management program and its state-wide deer herd has approximately 1.5 adult does per adult buck with nearly 60% of the bucks being 2.5 years and older.
Kip's Korner is written by Kip Adams, wildlife biologist and Northeast regional director for the Quality Deer Management Association (QDMA). The QDMA is a non-profit wildlife conservation organization dedicated to promoting sustainable, high-quality, white-tailed deer populations, wildlife habitats and ethical hunting experiences through education, research, and management in partnership with hunters, landowners, natural resource professionals, and the public. The QDMA can be reached at 1-800-209-DEER or www.QDMA.com.
Hunters often ask about the sex ratio of the deer herd where they hunt and then compare that ratio to herds in other areas or states. There are a lot of misunderstandings regarding sex ratios and this article will help clarify some misconceptions. First, what is a sex ratio, what animals are used to determine it and when is it measured? The sex ratio is a number describing the number of adult females for each adult male in a population. The number includes deer 1.5 years and older (all deer except fawns) and describes the population immediately preceding the hunting season. When comparing ratios, make sure you are referring to pre-hunt adult sex ratios. These are the ratios biologists most often refer to, and they should not be confused with observed or post-hunt ratios as the latter are nearly always heavily skewed towards females.
I often hear hunters, outdoor writers, and even biologists refer to 10:1 or 15:1 doe:buck ratios. These cannot be pre-hunt adult ratios because as long as the deer herd is reproducing, the ratio cannot become more skewed than 5 does per buck. The biological maximum is about 5:1 because even in the absence of female harvest, 15-20% of adult females in the population will die each year from old age, vehicles, disease, predators, etc. Also, about 50% of fawns born each year are male (it's actually slightly more than 50%), thus the sex ratio gets an annual correction when fawns are recruited. This concept is easier to understand with an example.
Let's say a hypothetical population contains 120 adult deer (fawns not included).
Pre-hunt population = 100 does and 20 bucks (this is a 5:1 ratio)
During the hunting season let's say hunters kill 90% (18) of the bucks and 0% (0) of the does.
Hunting mortality 0 does and 18 bucks
Post-hunt population = 100 does and 2 bucks (50:1, heavily skewed after the hunt)
Natural mortality gets added next. Since there are very few bucks left in the population, very few will die from other causes. We'll say 1 of the 2 remaining bucks dies. However, 15-20% of the does will die from natural causes. We'll be conservative and use 15% (15 does).
Natural mortality 15 does and 1 buck
Remaining population = 85 does and 1 buck (85:1, the ratio is still heavily skewed)
We'll be conservative again and say each of the remaining does has only 1 fawn. That means there will be 85 (about 43 buck and 42 doe) fawns. These won't be added to the adult population until the following year but last year's fawns get added this year. For simplicity, we'll assume last year's population had the same number of fawns and immigration and emigration are equal.
Recruitment 42 does and 43 bucks
Pre-hunt population = 127 does and 44 bucks (this is a 3:1 ratio)
This example is simplified but it demonstrates that pre-hunt adult sex ratios can't become as skewed as many think. However, from a biological perspective, a 3:1 ratio is heavily skewed and reflects poor management on the deer population. This 3:1 ratio could lead to hunters observing 10 or more antlerless deer (females and fawns) per buck.
The sex ratio by itself however, can be misleading. When discussing sex ratios it's important to determine the age structure of the buck population. For example, you can have 2 populations that both have 2:1 ratios. One population has only yearling bucks, the second has bucks from 1.5-5.5 years making up the ratio. Which population is better managed and which would you rather hunt? Just because a herd has a good sex ratio doesn't mean it is properly managed. Prior to antler restrictions and liberalized doe harvests, Pennsylvania was considered to be among the poorest managed states in the country. Even then, Pennsylvania's state-wide sex ratio was <3:1. The deer population was skewed towards females but an even bigger problem was nearly all the bucks were yearlings. Pennsylvania's new seasons are designed to tighten the sex ratio and increase the age structure of the buck population. You may never get a 1:1 ratio but well managed herds will have <2 adult does per adult buck. The state of New Hampshire has a successful deer management program and its state-wide deer herd has approximately 1.5 adult does per adult buck with nearly 60% of the bucks being 2.5 years and older.
Kip's Korner is written by Kip Adams, wildlife biologist and Northeast regional director for the Quality Deer Management Association (QDMA). The QDMA is a non-profit wildlife conservation organization dedicated to promoting sustainable, high-quality, white-tailed deer populations, wildlife habitats and ethical hunting experiences through education, research, and management in partnership with hunters, landowners, natural resource professionals, and the public. The QDMA can be reached at 1-800-209-DEER or www.QDMA.com.
#36
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 368
Likes: 0
I wouldn't mind so much if kids were exempt. My son should never have to pass a deer for antler restrictions or doe harvest. He passed an eight point this year, his first year, and a four point. I am proud of him but don't think he should have to pass on these just yet.
Greg
Greg
#37
Nontypical Buck
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,512
Likes: 0
From: Warren PA USA
In PA the junior hunters (ages 12-16) are to follow our old restrictions of one spike 3" or longer or 2 or more points on one antler. It's a good way to get more kids more action since a bunch of bucks get passed on by the adult hunters.
#39
Jason, thanks for the info, that is some of the most reveiling info I've seen in a long time! I ran the numbers accumitively and stayed pretty consistant.
#40
Spike
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 91
Likes: 0
From: Williamsport PA. USA
Not every hunter in PA. is for them. There was no hard scientific evidence that they were needed. Dr Alt and his team used them as a tool to get the herd reduction thru. the studies to prove them are ongoing now instead of being done before they were implemented. I dont think there would have been the opposition that there was and still is if there were hard proof that is what should have been done. Guys in Pa were touting the benefits of them the first year they were implemented. There were always good bucks in PA. you just had to hunt a little harder. To many guys thought that having them would atomaticlly insure them a big buck. With massive herd reduction going on at the same time with them it will be hard to say if they are doing what Alt wants.


