I kept away from this issue because it is a 'NO WIN' situation. Someone did, however, ask for my opinion on this rest. While I don't really recommend it generally, I do sell and install it for my customers. I also offer the service of checking their tune. The number who don't have the WB tuned properly, but think their bow is tuned properly, is phenomenal. Can it be tuned correctly and work well? Yes. Can you get a 'false' sense of tune? Yes. Do I see a lot of fletching damage from the WB? Yes.

Shooting high scores with field tips by any 'paid' professional archer who has the time and experience to finely tune a bow/arrow system deserves respect; but, it doesn't in any way represent what the average hunter will experience. It's not that it will not work at any yardage; it's whether or not the average hunter will achieve the best results that should be a standard for hunting animals. I have tried it and it will work. One of the problems is that it will continue to apparently 'work' when the bow is really out of tune. This will result in that 'false sense of tune' that I've discussed many times. This 'false sense of tune' will result in other problems.

Some have mentioned that it is like "shooting off the shelf". This is absolutely true. However, most recurve bows shoot off the shelf all the time. It does, for example, take quite a while for most trad archers to find the right combination of bow/arrow to achieve good hunting results. It does, in fact, "go against all other principles of arrow rest design". For a PROPER tune, it is just as difficult to tune a WB as with any other rest. The difference is that the extrusion process of the WB may well give you a 'false tune' while the other rests will give you a better indication of what is REAL.

WB's are so popular among today's hunters because of the arrow captivation characteristic and the fact that many don't realize that they really don't have a good tune when using it. Regretfully, a good tune can only be recognized when a bad tune is pointed out. Arrows falling off the rests have become much more of an issue in the past 10+ years. The hard back walls, harder draw cycles, high let-off, and short valleys all have lead to this problem. I designed a really neat arrow hold-down that just about eliminated this problem with prong rests. I didn't push the design because of the advent of drop-away and captivation rests.

We first saw the problems of tuning and false tune when we used to sell another captivation rest called the Stalkmaster. We could make it work very well until the one-cam nock travel problem became overbearing. When we told the manufacturer that he should change the design to allow for 'arrow dynamics', he ignored us. Guess what, he now wishes he had listened. After all, he had a captive rest with a QS long before the WB.

For most, the WB does affect fletching. It's been documented by many here and on other forums. We do a lot of refletching and, although it is not strictly a WB problem, the WB is a culprit. The softer bristles may help in this matter; but, many have 'trimmed' their biscuits as a temporary solution. With the new 'softer' whiskers, a problem that may appear is the possiblity of the arrow getting pushed between the bristles easier. This will only happen in rare instances, but it is possible.

Many Dealers/archery shops/mass merchants push the WB because it is 'easy to tune'. Since some don't care about the tune they're giving their customers, it's an 'easy way out'. There is an apparent tune that the customer sees and that is apparently sufficient. WOW, will I get blasted on this one by the good Dealers. Problem is, there are constant posts about how few GOOD Dealers we have in this country. The GOOD ones will know who they are and understand this statement; but, the others will surely be very vocal towards me.

While I don't agree with c903 on many things, I must reiterate some of what he posted:

Quote:

-I believe the design of the rest is counter to what is necessary for best arrow
performance.
-That the installation, adjustment, and tuning are (obviously) not as simple as some claim.
-I would not easily recommend the "WB" to be used by someone that does not have a
thorough grasp of tuning a bow, all accessories, form, and troubleshooting.
-I definitely would not (personally) use the rest.
-Regardless of all the pro arguments, in no way can the capability and performance of
the "WB" be considered to be on the same level as certain other hunting rests.

However, if a shooter know all sides of the story, can set the rest up and obtain reasonable accuracy under certain conditions, and is comfortable with a "middle of the road" piece of equipment, that is the person's personal choice.

What many don't realize is misleading statements by new archers such as "trimmed and tuned in about 30 minuits. I have not had to adjust it since I put it on." This new archer may not realize that any bow is a dynamic piece of equipment. Strings/cables stretch, tolerances change, serving moves, etc. The 'false sense of tune' is something that the unknowing might have and never realize. When it is stated that "I swithed from a prong style rest because I was having to spend too much time tunning it It seems like I was adjusting it about once every week or two.", doesn't this indicate that things are changing and/or this person really doesn't know how to tune a bow???? Did the WB REALLY fix the problem or cover it up?????????? Do you think a novice can tune with one rest in 30 minutes and take weeks to never achieve good results with another rest??????? This is the type of situation that I find unacceptable. Did this person suddenly find the tuning expertise needed or stumble onto a 'bandaid' fix???????? This hunter is probably going into the woods with equipment that is questionable.[]

Quote:

This rest is the best archery product to come along in years and if they can't see that they can all go piss up a rope!

Now that is classic!

Anyway, I see the WB as an asset and a liability. It all depends on your perspective. At first I was adamant about its capability because of my experience with other captive rests like the Stalkmaster. I know the benefits appear to outweigh the negatives; but, you should try to understand the negatives so that you can better put the advantages to good use. Whatever you choose to use, just make sure it is tuned to the nth degree and that you check that tune periodically via several methods. Good hunting to all.

Dammit Len, you left out the part were I said that I wouldn't trust you to fix a drink! THAT was the real classic! Good luck hunting!

ncbowhunter: I'm glad to hear of your success in the installation of your rest and in your bowtuning. I realize that many of the guys that are interested in bows do not have access to shops where they live and that is partly why I go to great lengths to provide as much detailed, clear. concise information on hows things work and why they work that way as I can. I do enjoy it when I recieve PMs of shooters success with their bows. There are a few pompous stuffed shirts that never seem to post anything worthwhile on the forums. I believe that if you have something that works and you can share it that you should post it and try to balance things out. I wish you every success in archery and in life. Good luck hunting!

Len

While I respect your input on this forum a great deal , I must admit that your "false tune" in relation to the WB has me a bit baffled.

Could you please explain what you mean by a "false tune"? Are you talking paper tune , group tune , etc. etc?
I dont doubt that you have to tune WB customers alot who are out of tune , but I find the "false tune" statement ridiculous. I'd have to lay my money down that these folks were never tuned to begin with. There egos may have led them to say "yep she's tuned" when in reallity they couldn't tune a WB or a two prong rest to begin with.

Are you saying that these folks had great groups , straight arrow impact , were shooting bullet holes thru paper , yet it was a "false tune"?

I too am perplexed by what a "false tune" is. I tune all my rests by group tuning and bare shaft tuning (for spine). I do the same with the W.B. and can't think of a single reason why it appears to give me great results, but that it may be "false". When I done tuning, I get great groups at 20, 40 and 60 yards. Broadhead flight is great. It appears to be no more difficult to tune or to check the tune then any other rest I've ever tuned. How do I detect a "false" tune?

Tuning is tuning, but you must use different techniques for different applications. "False tunes" come from comparable tears with differing arrow spines that are quickly noticed by techs who do this stuff for a living. The only instance where this is not immediately apparent is with perfectly straight and level nock travel bows, in which case differing spines are more apt to tune closer together, but that's another story.[8D]

The biskit holds arrows to "straightness" longer coming out of the bow because of it's bristles and all vanes going through it at the same time--therefore if one were to paper tune the bow at 6' or 9' or 12', normally they can get good tears with little effort due to this "help" the bristles provide. However all arrows have to paradox at some point, and this is where we come to the next step in tuning the biskit that many fail to recognize. I can't answer for Len himself but being a tech also I think that's what he's talking about here also. I've personally found that the only way to correctly tune the biskit is by group tuning---whether out of a hooter shooter or offhand. If you are going to shoot broadheads out of it, tune with them! The paradox comes at a later distance than "normal" conventional setups, so unless you can find the correct distance point where each setup will tune correctly through paper, you are better off to simply eliminate that step and go out and group tune. This rest is VERY accurate when tuned correctly, but as Len has stated, it isn't just a "slap it on and go", altho I do admit that many can acheive good groups with this rest at 10 and 20 yds with this rest with little effort. But the tuning process must continue on to 40 yds minimum IMHO to see if it will still hold groups. Only a "proper tune" will do that, especially with fixed blade broadheads. My own experience with the biskit is that if you know what to look for, this rest is easy to tune---square it up, gain centershot, go out and group tune it. The only thing is that with "conventional" rests I can set them up to an 11 o'clock tail high left tear about 1/4-3/8" indoors at normal paper tune distance and know that my groups will be dead on outdoors. (many Pros tune to this with conventional rests for best groups) With the biskit I cannot do this because at short distance I can in fact get that "false tune" through paper, that is why I skip this with them and go directly to the group tune process.

Advantages of the biskit are the full encapture as the biggest point. Not having to ever look at your arrow once it is put into the rest is a big plus and worry eliminated from ones' mind IMHO, even in a treestand I currently have to look down and especially so just before the shot---this is only a split second or two but that is a split second or two that now doesn't need to be spent distracting you from the focus on your intended impact spot. Other advantages are simplicity and ruggedness and quiet operation. ONLY disadvantage I see is the fletching wear issue, but the new ones eliminate alot of this with softer bristles and besides---it's a HUNTING rest! Once my hunting bows are setup and tuned, I don't shoot more than maybe 50-75 shots out of them thru the season to ensure they are still in tune and the actual harvest shots themselves--- so in my mind this is a relative nitpik for hunters. IF I were to shoot this rest for everything, then I would actually probably just choose something else (which I do anyway) but for the application it was intended for it is a superb choice IMHO. Good shooting, Pinwheel 12

I have read a lot of posts on here and other places concerning the WB. I see people criticize it who offer few it any actual accounts of using one and the physical problems they had with it. Almost all of them criticize it as per how they view what a rest should or shouldn't be. One criticism is that is goes against what a rest is supposed to do, one being to have no fletch contact. Isn't fletching one of the most important factors in arrow accuracty due largely to the drag it creates? If fletching would come into contact with many rests, most likely being 1 or maybe 2 making contact, it would have an undesirable effect as it would impact the trajectory of the arrow. With the WB, however, it seems the fletching contact would be more or less uniform and in turn almost have a positive effect on the arrow as it seems it would cause the fletching to leave the rest with a uniform drag and straighten the arrow out. Is this what causes the "false tune"? It also would seem that if you could get a "false tune" with one, it must have some qualities that improve even out of tune bows which would also seem to mean it would be even better with a tuned bow. Or do other rests have this same problem and if so why is it being brought up as an issue with the WB? It would seem that installing, adjusting, tuning, etc. is no more different than with ANY rest. Is there a rest that does not require anything the WB would. Most would need more it appears. With all that being equal, the advantages would seem to be adeptly containing the arrow in hunting situations and possibly improving arrow flight. Or as Dennis Miller would say, I could be wrong.

In my opinion, paper tuining is not tuning your bow and arrows for best flight. No matter what the reading through paper, the only way to get a correct tune is to shoot and adjust accordingly. As far as I'm concerned every paper tune is potentially a "false" tune, no matter the rest used.

PW12 did a commendable job in explaining most of the issues involved with a "false tune". What the WB does is hide/camoflauge some of the issues concerning "false tune". It often takes someone, like PW12 says, who works with this stuff daily to truly/quickly notice these issues. As I have said repeatedly, many may be able to get good results; but, what I see as a shop owner, from the average hunter, is pretty bad. The worst is what I see from mass merchants. The rests are quickly installed by 'eyeball' and their customer accepts the results.

As I've also said many times, the WB is like an extrusion process. If you're at all familiar with extruding, you'll better understand how an arrow, especially a weaker spined arrow, can be 'controlled' by the extrusion process. It may go in slightly at an angle but come out straight. Under this process, the arrow, while momentarily straightened, can 'explode' once it gets out to a certain distance. Have you ever seen a javelin thrown that comes off the hand straight and then starts gyrating thereafter. It only takes a finite amount of this to cause a arrow with a broadhead to do strange things. Remember, stored energy is what is transfered to the arrow. The arrow is then a vehicle with stored energy that can 'explode' in various ways.

This is just one example of quite a few things that can occur. I can't take the time to explain all the scenarios, and it would be too confusing to most.

Paper tune, group tune, powder tune, chrono tune, FT/broadhead tune, etc. All of this has to be coupled with proper spine selection and broadhead testing.

Quote:

"false tune" statement ridiculous.

While you might find this statement ridiculous, I find it to be very real. If you could spend some time with me in the shop, you'd soon be using that statement yourself. And yes, these "folks were never tuned to begin with."; but, they didn't know that!! And yes, their egos make them want to believe that they're tuning experts. You can have all your arrows hitting in the same group and not be tuned correctly. Wow, this will raise some eyebrows!!!!!! I look at a bow/arrow system as utilizing the maximum amount of stored energy to transmit the arrow from point A to point B. I learned this many years ago in my drag racing days. Man, that was fun.

If all the methods of tuning indicate the same results, then you must have a good tune. You must, however, not rely on any one tuning method to guarantee the best results. It is those who only rely on one method, or accept what they are given by others, that wind up many times with a 'false tune'.

Good shooting to all.

I hope you don't mind more questions Len, but this intrigues me.

Why must one paper tune, or powder tune for that matter? To me, paper tuning is a starting place that can be easily eliminated, especially with experience. As for powder tuning, why bother if you are sure nothing is hitting the rest or riser? Also, is a cronograph consistent enough to give information that would be useful.

In addition, I have to guess that if you're shooting a significantly weak spine that you wouldn't get good grouping at various distances (which is how one group tunes). The arrow can't "explode" and stilll group good at 40 yards, can it? I know that if I'm shooting only a slightly weak spine where my field tips fly great but my broadheads don't, it not an issue with the rest. It means I need a stiffer arrow spine. If my broadheads fly good, then the tune of bow and arrows is good. If I successfully group tune at 20, 40 and 60 yards, what would be hidden by the whisker biscuit, that could be brought out by one of these other tuning methods?