AKDoug

Arrroman - I bought a WB because of your posts. Did you buy the Newberry and Stingers because of mine...LOL.. It's funny that we now use identical setups. Richard says there may be a hybrid cam Newberry soon

Len in Maryland

Arrroman:

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Believe me I have studied how arrows leave the bow and I am amazed that they clear the bow as well as they do.

Yes, I do believe that good arrow flight can be achieved with a WB. I never said that I didn't. The degree of tune that you achieve depends a lot on your bow design and on your tuning capability.

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I've got a drawer full of old rests and a handful of my own handbuilt rests and none of them are as good as the whisker biscuit.

Could it be that none of them are as good because none of them "influence" or capture the arrow? Could it be that your tuning methods for all those other rests was not as good and that you've learned to tune better over the years? I would tend to think that both are true.

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There is no springboard and no temporary now its here and now it isn't thing going on with the biscuit.

This is where part of the problem arises. Many 'tune' the rest and then forget it because they don't 'see' any flight differences. Any bow is a dynamic piece of equipment. Strings and cables stretch causing changes in nocking points, poundage, etc. If a rest does not allow the archer to 'see' these changes, then there is a detrimental affect on the performance characteristics of the system. Some may think that 'fix and forget' would be a good thing. Tha is the case of a static design; but, bows change constantly. What I'm talking about is the maintenance involved in keeping a bow tuned as perfectly as possible for maximum efficiency. The problem we see is the 'average' archer coming into the shop with equipment that APPEARS to be working well.

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....and there is no fletching wear worthy of mention.

So, you admit that there is "fletching wear". Thank you.

AKDoug: Do you have a Hooter Shooter? We do. I know your test was "tongue in cheek". I didn't mean in any way to discredit your test; but, to indicate that it is far from what would be required to do a complete analysis. It is one thing to pore water onto a rest. It is another to have the morning mist get down into the interstices of wires only to become frozen as the temperature drops. That is just one of the many scenarios that would have to be examined. You rightfully thought I meant coating the system with ice.

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The WB, with one poke of the finger, is ready to go again.

If the ice were into the interstices of the rest, believe me, you couldn't just "poke" the rest with your finger, nor would all the ice be removed.

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Your assertion that the WB is like shooting off the shelf with Trad equipment holds no water.

Let's examine this statement further by looking at your further statements.

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The interference with a fletch on a trad bow is with one fletch only. The WB interferes with all the fletches simultaniously, thereby negating any contact issues other than a minute loss of speed.

Fletching contact is fletching contact no matter whether it is one or three or four. You're assuming that the fletching contact is the only adverse condition. While I thank you for admitting to a "loss of speed" (the degree depends on the tuning capability of the archer), the other condition to which I was referring was the lack of any movement of the rest. It was determined many years ago that instituting spring fingers and tuning to get the arrow 'off' the rest as soon as possible would allow for better arrow flight. While one can get 'acceptable' arrow flight "off the shelf", zero effect of the rest on the arrow has always been the desirable mode.

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You use CAP's constant improvement of the WB as some sort of addition of weakness?

I didn't call it a weakness, I called it a "progression".

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I call it great costumer service.

I could also call it 'planned obsolesence.

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I'd love to see the setups that are ripping off fletches from a curiousity standpoint.

I'd love to show you this problem first hand, but I'm sure you wouldn't want to visit my shop. We do a LOT of fletching repair. Arrroman admitted to fletching wear in his last post. It's there. To what degree depends again on tuning capability and other factors. Your "....hundred shots...." is really not a true indicator. Although I've seen significant damage with far fewer shots.

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There may very well be bows out there that really don't like the WB. Maybe because of poor nock travel, maybe because of other factor. Just like a two prong, you cannot jamb too much of a helical fletch through them.

Yes, poor nock travel is one of the contributing factors and helical fletching is another.

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Jim Despart shoots one with his Sceptor III for his hunting bow. Do you think a guy of that calibre would shoot junk?

Jim is someone who would contantly be trying to achieve a perfect tune and who would check his tune often. I have a lot of respect for Jim.

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I defend them because I like them.

Good for you. I have defended equipment and will continue to do so. I will, however, keep my mind open. Sometimes we think something is great because it might solve a major problem (like capturing the arrow), but we must also realize that solving one problem may create others. Arrow captivation is something that many hunters like - and I'm one of them; but, to a degree.

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I certainly hope you get some time off to hunt with all those bows to work on. It would be a shame if you didn't.

Thank you for your concern about my capability to hunt. I have arrowed 18 deer so far this year with a nice double-header of 8 point bucks. Our season lasts until the end of January and then we have Crop Damage Permits that go through March. We here in Maryland have a very bad deer overpopulation problem.

You have a Happy Holiday Season as well. And good hunting to you.

BigDaddy12t

I'm not going to get in the middle of this debate, but I am going to say that I have been using one for the last 2 years and I think they are great! I have never had any problems with them at all

Arrroman

AKDoug: Actually I'm still using the original Magnus heads, you use the newer Stingers. Each year I toy with the idea of getting a new bow or a new rifle to use hunting. This year I sacraficed my Mathews Icon in order to get an old Browning B-78 single shot 25-06 for rifle season. This opened up the possibility of getting a new bow for me. The Newberrry is built by hunters for hunters just like the biscuit. Just like the biscuit the Newberry is built to the highest tolerance in the industry. Rebecca at Newberry talked to me on the phone at the same time she was talking to the president of the company who was preparing to set up my bow to be assembled and shipped the next morning. The entire shop at Newberry was preparing to go hunting themselves the following week. These are the kinds of people that I want to be dealing with in my life. There is no substitute for quality control and good designs. Having the people who love the sport as much as we do designing and building the products we use is the absolute perfect way to do things in my opinion. The Browning points like a finger for me and I did mange to shoot two bucks with it this year. Both deer were heart shot at about 100yards. I haven't taken a shot at a deer with the Newberry yet, but I'm sure its going to work too. Good luck hunting!

Arrroman

Lennie in Md: I have never had a serious problem in tuning bows or rests for that matter, its just a whole lot easier to do with the whisker biscuit then with other style of rest. Its a little strange how efficient the biscuit is when its used properly, compared to the fletching wear and tuning problems when its not used properly. I find that eliminateing having to adjust the spring tension of the rest and not having to fiddle with the nocking point repeatably to be a great asset when tuning with the biscuit. This is rest that most people can get to work with relative ease compared to a lot of other rests. I don't know how many "arrow repairs" you have capitalized on because someone shot the best groups of their life with a marinally tuned biscuit, not knowing that they might be able to do better if they shot the correct spine arrows for their bow. Not informing your customers about the truth on how something is supposed to work when you possess that knowledge would strike me as bit unethical to say the least. Of course its possible to freeze a biscuit solid with ice, anybody that would hunt with the biscuit and not check it once in a while and clear it when they see ice or any other foreign matter in the rest probably should not have a bow. If you see "significant damage" going on do you fix the problem or not? I've been shooting bows and guns for over 45years. I'm not on hunting and fishing forums to engage in a pissing contest with anyone. I have shared what I have learned about how the biscuit works for me. I try like hell to never criticize another man's dog and I expect the same from the next guy. I do expect that the folks at CAP will always be looking at ways to refine their products. I don't think adding a spring to the rest would help any. Happy holidays to all! Good luck hunting!

Len in Maryland

Arrroman:

I realized that I had spelled your 'handle' incorrectly and immediately corrected it. I tried to be nice and professional in my statements to you and about you. I even gave you the benefit of the doubt in several statements you made.

Now that you've become frustrated and decided to sling some mud, I'll do like I've done to many others on this and other forums - ignore you. I don't have time to listen to some very opinionated and self-centered individuals with a keyboard who, when approached with reason and logic, can't conduct themselved in a civil and mutually respectful manor. Many professionals who have frequented these boards have evidently elected not to post as much anymore. I'm sure most have grown tired of dealing with this phenomenon.

How dare YOU question my ethics and professionalism??? Making statements like you just did are outrageous. It is, in part, my indepth analyses and honesty that many in this profession and most of my customers appreciate. If you think "shooting bows and guns for over 45years" automatically makes you an expert, I've seen many like you.

I could go into rebutting your comments. I won't because of the nature/tone of those comments.

Have a nice day.

Arthur P

It's amazing how many people take a stupid rest so SERIOUSLY. Len is correct on all points. His only mistake was wading into a nest of people that are blinded by the light and trying to be truthful about the WB. Here's a quarter. Go buy a life!

Geez!

Arrroman

I've never had a biscuit freeze up while hunting. Logic and opinion are two different things. I don't accept the premise that a biscuit is going to freeze up under adverse hunting conditions. I really don't know how many arrow repairs Len has made on account of the biscuit and I really don't think he knows either. I don't think every rest needs a spring, or a magnet, or a rubber band to work. I don't want to buy a rest and then have to cobble up some moleskin or tape or heatshrink tubeing every so often just to keep it working. I don't like it when someone else impugns my abilities at tuning a bow or a rest. I don't like to offend people. My purpose in visiting the forums is to share a bit of knowledge on how things work. I'll admit to being just a bit offended by those people who see the need to disect every word of someone elses post in a blatant attempt to obfuscate the truth about how something works or how it should be used. The world we live in is an amazing place and one thing that I have learned over the years is to be careful about when I choose to state something in an absolute fashion. I believe that people have the ability to change if they so choose. How people handle problems and adverse conditions does speak volumes about their character. I like the kind of people that can offer a cogent, well reasoned analysis of the situation and the remedial steps needed to fix it. Those people who offer no fixes and only bitch, complain, and attempt to assess blame to others are useless to me. Not informing your customers about the truth on how something is supposed to work when you possess that knowledge would strike me as being unethical. Sorry if that struck a nerve but its true. Hey its just an arrowrest! Happy hloidays to everyone! Good luck hunting!

MThunter

wow i seem to have stirred up the hornests nest in here. To be honest we've taken a very simple question and twisted it into a scenerio where no bow could possible work anyway. If there is excesive mist and freezing to the point where the wb cannot work, then the rest of the bow is probably unshootable anyway. Len I appreciate your input as a professional and it is a shame there are not more professional tuners on this board to give what is obviously quite informed opionions on equipment. Arrowman, i appreciate your informal enviromental test and I certainly hope noone expects that you thought that was the ends all of testing for rests. I decided to go ahead and get a whisker on my bow. I'll have nine months to see for myself if it works for my setup and usage. I think that is the really important thing that is easy to forget. There is a thousand ways to get the job done and there is never a definate word on anything. Everything has its advantages and drawbacks.

AKDoug

I just tried to PM you about 10 minutes ago and it wouldn't work. Then your post popped up

I want to appologize for taking this thread to a wrong direction and picking fights with Len. Bowhunting and archery doesn't need this kind of crap and I'm sorry for knitpicking. I just get a little passionate about stuff that works for me is all.

Best of luck to you. If you have any issues with the WB send an Email to Arrroman. He has helped me in the past and his solutions were simple and quick.

Good luck, good hunting and have a Happy Holidays.

Doug Moore