MThunter

thanks for the info. Wow i'm sure amazed at the responses and it really put rests into a new light for me. If the weather is so bad my rest is failing then i probably won't be able to hunt any way.

AKDoug

I prefer the quick shot model. I doubt I'd like the WB as much if the quick shot wasn't an option.

C'mon Len...you're smarter than that. All these folks are worried about rests icing up fail to realize that the arrows, vanes and your rigging are iced too. The spray that CAP sells works good for those too

Len in Maryland

C'mon, Doug...I am smarter than that. I, as well as many others, understand how hard the WB is on fletchings. Add to that the chance of partial icing and you may have some real problems. While most rests allow the arrow to 'rest' on them, the WB requires that the arrow and its fletching 'pass' through. Couple that with the 'extrusion' process of launching your arrow that can produce erroneous tuning to the unknowing, and you've got a compound problem.

Any standard rest that may have a tendency to ice up can usually be detected easily or made to operate by a slight push. Concerning the WB, if you can't see it, you can't fix it.

I noticed that in Arrowman's last 10 posts, 6 of them were complimentary to the WB. Makes you wonder!

As far as icing up, it only takes a little moisture to freeze between the hundreds of fibers making up the biscuit. The arrow will, in all probability, find its way through the biscuit if icing occurs. What, however, will be the resultant affect on the flight of the arrow????? Most who will ever experience this will find something else to blame.

While this problem will never occur to 99% of the archers using the WB, who wants to be in that 1% category? The 'No Snow' is produced by CAP and THEY advertise it as a 'BISCUIT & Feather Water Repellent'. If it weren't made for the BISCUIT, why would they so state that????????? Or, why wouldn't they just market it as a product for feathers???? Finally, what could have prompted them to enter into a market (water repellancy) if the problem didn't ever present itself??

C'mon, Doug....you're smarter than that.

AKDoug

Len, how much does 1/8" of clear ice built up on the tips of a Nap 1000 throw off the imact of an arrow? For that matter, how much is the impact thrown off when a small layer of ice develops on the windward side of your arrows in your quiver?

The last thing to ice on my bow is the bisquit, in fact I have found no ice at any time that has effected it's accuracy. I've had my bow ice up many times. That's something that very few folks on this board can ever say happened to them. I'm relating my experience and IMHO the WB has no issue with ice.

AKDoug

Nice to have a product testing lab here at the office...LMAO It's -25F right outside my window.. I happen to have my kid's christmas presents here. Two compounds. One with a Nap 1000 rest that I am replacing with a WB and one with a WB. Took both outside and let them sit for a couple minutes. Came back out with two 20 oz. bottled waters. Poured them over the rests on both bows. Allowed both to sit for 2 minutes. Both rests frozen solid. The WB was as hard as a rock (brand new out of the package) the Nap no longer had any spring movement. Took ONE finger and shoved it through the WB ONE time. Cleared the ice and it was as supple as new. Took ONE finger, pressed down on the spring loaded two arms of the Nap, ONE time. Arms stayed down. Pulled them up and they stayed up. Spring action was definately altered.

I for one would really be interested how some of the drop aways would have faired. Maybe I need to do some tests like 5 shot has done on the broadheads

Y'all decide which one is for you.

Len in Maryland

Doug:
I didn't manufacture the 'No Snow', CAP did. I didn't elude to a problem, CAP did. I said that there would probably only be a small chance of a major problem and you seem to be offended by that statement.

Your test, while a good attempt, doesn't cover all possible scenarios. Your test, while showing the results you wanted, was not conclusive as to how the arrow would react when shot off both rests.

The pouring of water over the rests and subjecting them to freezing is not conclusive. How water is 'collected' and 'displaced' by materials and designs is something to be studied. How 'surface water' freezes and the action of components under various 'conditions' should be considered and documented. CAP may have done some of these tests and therefore decided to protect themselves against complaints. I know of one drop-away manufacturer who has done extensive freezing tests with their product. They subsequently saw no need for 'No Snow'.

I hope you'll never have the experience of being that 1% I mentioned; but, some out there may witness that regretful experience.

Arrroman

Lennie in Md: My biscuits have never iced up with or without the "No-Snow" on them. The spray does work real well on feathers though, it penetrates the fibers of the feather and doesn't allow water to penetrate the feather. There may be other uses for 'No-Snow" besides feathers. I sprayed the bathroom mirror with the stuff and buffed it dry and the mirror didn't fog after running the shower for five minutes. Maybe it can do the same for eyeglasses or the inside of the windshields on our trucks in the morning. As far as my compliments on the biscuit go they are all true. I have never torn a feather or a vane because of the biscuit and the biscuit is just as accurate or more, than any other rest out there. I have had other rests bend, break, and drop my arrow and none of that has happened with the biscuit. The whisker biscuit is solid in its design and it stays in adjustment. If you simply bend the bristles of the rest occasionally while you are hunting you will know what its supposed to feel like and maybe gain an insight as to how often and under what weather conditions you need to do this. Basically whenever you feel the need to move and breakup the ice that forms on your clothing you could check the biscuit too. The biscuit has consistently been a very durable rest for me. I've pulled the rest through briars, grape vines, and tree branches and its never bent. broke, or gotten out of adjustment to foul up my shot. In the past I've purchased enough moleskin and tape to make rests work that I could probably have made a new seat cover for the truck. The biscuit works right out of the package without any tape or moleskin. The biscuit lasts for thousands of shots and if you want to change biscuits or substitute a real soft quiet well worn one for hunting the bow is still going to be in tune. The whisker biscuit tunes easier than any other rest I've tried. There are no clicks, whacks, or bangs when you tune a whisker biscuit and no foot powder either. The biscuit will not cure poor form when shooting a bow. The biscuit will not magically fix a bow that is out of tune. On a properly tuned bow shooting the correct spine arrows the biscuit is a very accurate, quiet, reliable, durable, and long lasting rest. I got no complaints with any of my whisker biscuits, anybody that has a problem with the biscuit is probably doing something wrong. Good luck hunting!

Len in Maryland

Arrowman:

Your dissertation surely was full of 'I', 'me' and 'my'. Therefore 'I' can only assume that all your information is based on your personal use of the WB.

My basis of information is gained through my shop working on about ten thousand bows a year. We stock the WB for those who want it. We therefore have to tune not only those we sell but those which are already on the bows we're asked to tune.

Since you personally find the WB to meet all your archery needs as far as rests are concerned, my congratulations to you. Many do, however, differ with your findings. In fact, the manufacturer admits to certain shortcomings.

As you may or may not have read, I stated that only a small percentage may have the freezing problem with the WB. The main problems we see are fletching interference/damage, lack of proper tuning, loss of arrow speed due to excessive arrow to rest contact, and (until the easier loading model) loading problems.

I could see the progression of this rest years ago. First was the original model, then we saw the easier loading version somewhat coupled with the Drop-tine, and eventually we should see it spring loaded. Right now it is the same as shooting 'off the shelf' as you would with a traditional bow. While this is not impossible, it does require some better tuning methods to get it right. If you study how an arrow flexes during launch, it might be easier to understand how much 'interference' there is in any captive style rest.

Enjoy your rest and good hunting to you as well.

Arrroman

Len: Believe me I have studied how arrows leave the bow and I am amazed that they clear the bow as well as they do. The Beiter site has slo-mo pictures that show just how much flexing is going on upon release of the arrow. What I have found that works well with the biscuit is to start the tuning with the bow at an even tiller, the biscuit parallel to the bowstring and the arrow nocked at 90degrees to the bowstring. Every bow is its own collection of stresses and biases but most right-handed bows that I've worked with seemed to be pitching the arrow about 1/8" to the left of the centerline of the bow and that has been consistently where the rest usually has to be for the bow to shoot its narrowest groups. If you actually read my last dozen posts you probably already know that I adjust the tiller to get a level arrow in the target and leave the nockpoint at 90degrees. None of what I do requires a bowsquare or a lazer its just oldfashion shoot the bow logic that gets the job done. I've got a drawer full of old rests and a handful of my own handbuilt rests and none of them are as good as the whisker biscuit. I can admit when my own work has been surpassed and the biscuit has got me beat. The biscuit is a very consistent rest. My current bow is a Newberry B-1 and its shooting 273FPS through the biscuit and grouping Magnus broadheads inside of an inch at 25yards. Fieldpoints clack together so often that it makes me nervous and I end up spending as much time inspecting the shafts as I do shooting them. The biscuit is a different rest to tune, whatever it does to arrowflight it does from 360degrees around the arrow. There is no springboard and no temporary now its here and now it isn't thing going on with the biscuit. I like the biscuit because I can understand how it works. Fix the bow so it pitches the arrow straight through the middle of the biscuit and the arrows fly like darts and there is no fletching wear worthy of mention. Fortunately none of this is brain surgery, but it is just common sense. Good luck hunting!

AKDoug

Len, my test was as much tongue in cheek as it was useful. Hey, it's the best I can do while at work. I'd be glad to test as many rests as people were willing to send me. I could shoot an arrow out of a Hooter Shooter with a cold bow and rest without ice, then shoot them again after they and the arrows in the quiver sat in a continuous mist of water at 31F for an hour and see what happens. I guarantee every rest on the market would fail, so would every bow. However, give a guy a couple minutes to wipe the ice of his string and cables, ice off an arrow and whatever way he wants to clean the rest. Then shoot it again through the Hooter. I have a feeling that a bunch of the non-sealed drop aways and two prongs will have issues still. The WB, with one poke of the finger, is ready to go again.

I'll mention again that I have, out in the field and in my back yard range, substained at least a dozen times, enough ice on my equipment to render it inaccurate. Yet the WB has remained pliable and in working conditions. This was one of my criteria as I practiced for my November caribou hunt. I shot for nearly for a month solid in crappy weather outdoors in October with zero WB failures.

Your assertion that the WB is like shooting off the shelf with Trad equipment holds no water. The interference with a fletch on a trad bow is with one fletch only. The WB interferes with all the fletches simultaniously, thereby negating any contact issues other than a minute loss of speed.

You use CAP's constant improvement of the WB as some sort of addition of weakness? I call it great costumer service. They have not strayed from the original idea a bit. How many fricken rests do NAP and GKF make? A bunch, but you'll never see me denying that any of them work well in CERTAIN applications.

I'd love to see the setups that are ripping off fletches from a curiousity standpoint. It's weird to me that dozens of guys I talk to have zero issues with vanes in WB's. I'm still shooting the factory vanes on my GT graphites that came with them. I have at least a hundred shots on each of the dozen and the only damage is from other arrows. There has to be a common denominator that shows which bows and arrow combinations that don't work with the WB. There may very well be bows out there that really don't like the WB. Maybe because of poor nock travel, maybe because of other factor. Just like a two prong, you cannot jamb too much of a helical fletch through them.

Jim Despart shoots one with his Sceptor III for his hunting bow. Do you think a guy of that calibre would shoot junk?

I defend them because I like them. I think they are a great rest for ground hunters and people who push there equipment to the limit in brushy country. I have no affiliation with CAP other than the caribou photo I sent them after my successful caribou hunt. Hopefully they'll get a couble bear and moose photos from me next year.

I certainly hope you get some time off to hunt with all those bows to work on. It would be a shame if you didn't. Have a Happy Holiday Season.