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Old 03-12-2010, 07:59 AM
  #11  
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Originally Posted by m9a9g9i9c View Post
we make the biggest mistake when we think that man is superior to all other creatures.
In fact we are the biggest reason we have and need wildlife managment
What you fail to account for here is that there was NO wildlife management (and other than the reintroducing wolves, there STILL isn't) in Yellowstone Park. That cannot be said outside the park in Idaho, Wyoming, and Montana.

While you and National Geographic may revel in the idea that the wolves have brought the elk population in Yellowstone down, what you conveniently omit is that there was NO credible predator in Yellowstone until wolves were reintroduced. Man was not allowed to hunt there, but I'm sure you're aware of that, living in Belgium and all?

Man, on the other hand, DOES hunt the surrounding area extensively, and the sustainable elk populations there reflect that. Because populations outside the park are already managed, the "habitat destruction" depicted in that cute little artist's rendition in National Geographic .... can't exist outside the park.

It's probably interesting to note that Rocky Mountain National Park also boasts an overpopulation of elk. And, like Yellowstone, hunting by humans is forbidden. Problematic though, reintroducing wolves (as some now advocate, trumpeting Yellowstone as the model) almost ensures problems and negative interactions between humans and wolves in nearby Estes Park and the Denver Metroplex.

"Hunters" are so villified by the artsy people around Estes Park that one cannot call the current efforts underway to reduce the elk problem what they are ("hunting"). Essentially, many of them are more "hunter-hater" than they are "wolf-lover". They don't want humans killing elk. That's the bottom line.

You said it best. This issue is far from your doorstep. Don't try assuaging the guilt you Europeans have for killing off all the wolves by championing them in someone else's backyard. If you want them so badly, I'm sure we could send you more than you'd know what to do with.
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Old 03-12-2010, 09:54 AM
  #12  
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Originally Posted by homers brother View Post
What you fail to account for here is that there was NO wildlife management (and other than the reintroducing wolves, there STILL isn't) in Yellowstone Park. That cannot be said outside the park in Idaho, Wyoming, and Montana.

While you and National Geographic may revel in the idea that the wolves have brought the elk population in Yellowstone down, what you conveniently omit is that there was NO credible predator in Yellowstone until wolves were reintroduced. Man was not allowed to hunt there, but I'm sure you're aware of that, living in Belgium and all?

Man, on the other hand, DOES hunt the surrounding area extensively, and the sustainable elk populations there reflect that. Because populations outside the park are already managed, the "habitat destruction" depicted in that cute little artist's rendition in National Geographic .... can't exist outside the park.

It's probably interesting to note that Rocky Mountain National Park also boasts an overpopulation of elk. And, like Yellowstone, hunting by humans is forbidden. Problematic though, reintroducing wolves (as some now advocate, trumpeting Yellowstone as the model) almost ensures problems and negative interactions between humans and wolves in nearby Estes Park and the Denver Metroplex.

"Hunters" are so villified by the artsy people around Estes Park that one cannot call the current efforts underway to reduce the elk problem what they are ("hunting"). Essentially, many of them are more "hunter-hater" than they are "wolf-lover". They don't want humans killing elk. That's the bottom line.

You said it best. This issue is far from your doorstep. Don't try assuaging the guilt you Europeans have for killing off all the wolves by championing them in someone else's backyard. If you want them so badly, I'm sure we could send you more than you'd know what to do with.
Excellent Post!
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Old 03-12-2010, 11:31 AM
  #13  
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Now, if they were to introduce the wolve and regulate them with some sort of management tactic in order to secure the whole ecosystem allowing it be balanced then I may be able to be fine with it.. But they won't because the "tree huggers" think its a sin to kill a wolf..
That was actually tried. Problem is that you have to have an actual population to "manage" before you can manage it, and when wolves are supposed to be protected, yet everyone who feels like it is shooting, shoveling and shutting up (usually only because dad did it and granddad did it) that doesn't give the population much of a chance to grow.

And then when that the population is large enough in most states that it CAN actually be managed, there are backawards states like Wyoming where the so-called "management plan" is to treat the wolf as a pest; no "management" at all. That's how the animals became endangered to begin with (duh). And that's why they were re-listed in many states (don't blame "liberals" or "wolf lovers" for that; blame states like Wyoming)

FYI: I am not a "tree hugger", a "liberal" or whatever. Calling everyone who disagrees with you names just makes a person look ignorant.

I'm a hunter and I get a deer every year (well, almost) because I get off my a$$ and scout, hunt, try different areas and different tactics, and actually work for it. 90% of the hunters I meet who whine and moan about wolves spend their time in a tree stand in the same area they've hunted for 30 years (deer DO actually move around, so maybe the hunters should, too - ?), riding the roads with a rifle on the passenger seat, looking for an opportunity to jump off the shoulder and kill and easy deer without having to walk too far, or sitting in deer camp drinking beer and bemoaning the "old days" when deer were as thick as fleas on a dog (supposedly). Other hunters may not love wolves, but they recognize them as a part of nature and adapt. Just like they've adapted to increasing populations, less huntable land, more hunters in the woods, and climate changes that move the deer around. But too many hunters give minimal effort to their hunting, then single out wolves because they're an easy target and they can put a face to the source of their anger: easier to hate wolves than to hate (or understand) a bad winter, food shortages, or CWD.

Wolves killing for sport? That's about the stupidest assumption I've ever heard of. Animals who have to find their own food in order to survive don't have the energy to expend calories for "sport." They may kill for their young, to return to a kill later on, or due to opportunity, but I highly doubt wolves are killing for "sport." I would take that information with a big fat grain of salt, especially coming from an outfitter - a person who makes more money by having more deer in the woods...

I don't agree with eliminating an animal from nature just so we can create better hunting opportunities for armchair hunters. If you want to do that, buy some land and create your own wildlife preserve that's wolf-free; don't try to dictate to the rest of the world which animals should be wiped out and which should live, based solely on a single activity (hunting). Plenty of people enjoy the outdoors who are NOT hunters, and the reason they start becoming "anti-hunter" is because of some of the backwards things hunters start bitching about: "kill all the wolves to protect our deer and elk (hint: they ain't "ours" until we legally harvest them). Oh yeah, and like 'em or not, those people vote, too.

I'm all for managing wolves like any other managed species, but only if done properly; every wolf being shot on sight by a PO'd deer hunter isn't "management."

Where I live, cars kill more deer than wolves do; maybe we should outlaw cars .
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Old 03-12-2010, 12:33 PM
  #14  
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Living in Wyoming I've seen the mass decline of Elk & Deer over the past several years do to these pests. They wouldn't be a bad thing if there was a way to check them in check legally. Our opinion a good wolf is a DEAD wolf.
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Old 03-12-2010, 03:59 PM
  #15  
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macman, maybe one deer a year and you put in that much work?? WOW, not to good if you ask me you must be doing something wrong.. i scout year around and have many nice animals to my credit not mention that I fill all my tag every year with quality animals and all with my bow.. I farm, scout, farm, scout, do food plots, check trail cams, plant some more food plots, hang stands, glass the fields all summer long (just about every night), manage my property, scout some more, and search for sheds.. In-between I bear hunt, turkey hunt, do some bird/rabbit hunting.. NOW, how is it that just because I hate the idea of wolves does it make you some sort of a better hunter?? I'm positive you and many more people out their don't do half what I do in order to manage the wildlife I have on my properties.. I bust may ass and spend countless hours in order to be more successful in the field and consider myself basically obsessed with bowhunting, an addict I guess.. So honestly macman you have no idea.. To clearify your foolishness, I put enough time in to do not only my homework but probably yours as well!! I have my reasoning behind not liking or wanting the wolves around and you may love them and that is fine.. And once again its not that i want them to be extinct but i would like to see a management plan in place before they do get out of control and in the areas that I am referring to there are plenty of wolfs (more then deer)... I however no longer hunt those areas, but that land is a waste now..
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Old 03-12-2010, 06:11 PM
  #16  
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Did you guys read the story today about the Alaska Teacher that was killed by wolves. The article says the autopsy is inconclusive but there were wolf tracks by her tracks and blood on the road. They drug her off the road down the hill. They do need to be controlled especially if they are coming into the towns and killing people.
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Old 03-13-2010, 03:53 AM
  #17  
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Originally Posted by Wheatley View Post
Did you guys read the story today about the Alaska Teacher that was killed by wolves. The article says the autopsy is inconclusive but there were wolf tracks by her tracks and blood on the road. They drug her off the road down the hill. They do need to be controlled especially if they are coming into the towns and killing people.
Though I'm not generally a proponent of the argument that wolves attack people (a la mountain lion), this is the time of year where there'll be a lull in the wolves' food supply. The easy pickin's have been picked, and the moose up there haven't dropped their calves yet.

Judging from the public outcry of support for the cute kitties when they attack people though, this won't matter at all in the wolf control argument.

We've seen so many cats out here that my eastern, "citified" relatives are paralyzed with terror any time we take them up into the mountains, insisting that I bring along some kind of firearm (which suits me fine). Maybe we DO need more cats and wolves?
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Old 03-13-2010, 04:40 AM
  #18  
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Originally Posted by macman99 View Post
90% of the hunters I meet who whine and moan about wolves spend their time in a tree stand
What's a tree stand?

Somehow, I'm not making the connection between you, the "uber hunter" and wolf management.

Nor do I get the impression here that most of these guys here swill beer in camp, road hunt, and complain about wolves. Many of them (I suspect) hunt the country around Yellowstone. I don't anymore. I hate horses, and the last elk I shot there took four days (and almost 100 miles, 12 mile one-way and 3000 feet of altitude difference x four quarters, packing one quarter - 90 lbs - at a time).

If we want to debate wolf/hunting management, we first must come to grips and accept that the Yellowstone reintroduction was artificial - not only in its success, but now in its failures. Wolves thrived at first, coming into a land where the elk lived their long lives free from any harassment other than the people on the roads. While at the same time, the elk outside the park were hunted every fall.

So now, the pack I watched thriving in Lamar Valley in the 90s (the "Druids") is down to its last member? Intra-pack killing, disease, migration outside the park, ... Yes, some were killed by man. Interestingly though, the original alpha female was killed by three rivals in her own pack? And then disease. Mother Nature has done more to "manage" this pack than has man. And we see the result.

And what most wolf proponents lack is a fundamental understanding of wolves in the first place. Most wolf advocates I come into contact with hate human hunting more than they understand the wolf. In a sick kind of way, I hope wolves ARE introduced to Rocky Mountain National Park. They WILL, at a point early on, find their way into town and kill the city park elk. No doubt, they'll chase cats and dogs, maybe even some of the runners and skiers who enjoy their idyllic mountain lifestyle once they get hungry enough or see them as an opportunity?

And through that, maybe we'll finally realize that wolves are innately wild, and need to be kept wild - not accustomed to man like the coyote. Not in conflict with man as are mountain lions and bears.


Originally Posted by macman99 View Post
Where I live, cars kill more deer than wolves do; maybe we should outlaw cars .
Out here, our government unwittingly solves that problem by banning the roads. Maybe you should relocate?
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Old 03-13-2010, 06:42 PM
  #19  
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m9a do you even hunt?
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Old 03-13-2010, 07:53 PM
  #20  
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When they don't live with Wolves they don't have a clue...Nuff Said
Attached Thumbnails Wolf Info-yak1.jpg   Wolf Info-wolf020003.jpg  
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