[Deleted]
 

[Deleted by Admins]

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

I was under the impression that most states allowed crossbow use in one season or another.

Some states may still prohibit the crossbow in any season....and if they do then I would be willing to bet that it is because they are still mistaken as a "poacher's weapon". Many folks still seem to think that they are a "quiet rifle" when that is not the case. But, because of this view, people tend to view them as the ideal weapon to use to poach...

...at least that is my take on it.

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

Texas regs. Crossbows are legal in bow season for any hunter with a PERMANENT upper limb disability that prevents him from using a conventional bow. They are legal to use, without restriction, for any general season, including spring turkey season.

That makes 4 months of legal crossbow hunting. 5 months for the disabled that can crossbow hunt during bow season. That doesn't include bowfishing with a crossbow which is also legal. It doesn't include hog and varmint hunting, which is also legal for the crossbow. You add that in and that makes 11 months of legal hunting with a crossbow.

Only the bow season, the month of October, is restricted.

I have to say that not once since the crossbow was granted legal hunting status in Texas have I ever seen anyone, except a couple of disabled hunters, with a crossbow in the woods. If there were any demand for crossbow hunting in this state, there would be crossbow hunters out there hunting in those general seasons, just like the bow hunters I run into during those seasons.

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

crossbows are legal in Ar, to anyone disabled or not, during the archery season.
heck, that's the way it ought to be!

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

I hunt in Ohio, where the crossbow is legal. I don't use one. I'm not a fan of them. Not to alienate anybody that uses them, I just don't care for them.

I feel they should be legalized for anybody who is disabled, only.

What they have done is open bowhunting to anybody...whether they take time to practice or not. A fella can go to any store (not even a true hunting shop) buy a crossbow, bolts, and broadheads...and be shooting bulls in a couple hours. A hunter shooting a longbow can't be ready to hunt for a month at least.

I've always considered bowhunting to be much more than that. Bow hunters are a different breed than gun hunters. They spend hours practicing...they know shot placement...they know stand placement...They put more stock in their hunting. (AS A WHOLE...I'M NOT RIPPING GUN HUNTERS)

With a crossbow, these aspects are liable to disappear.

Crossbows also filled the woods in Ohio. I used to see nobody during bow season, not I see lots of folks. Whether this is due to the x-bow or hunting popularity...I can't say.

All this said, I don't look down on somebody for using a X-bow. I have buddies that use them. I just ride them a little harder---<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>---

JMHO

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

THe only difference between a bow hunter and a crossbow - bow hunter is the draw and release. The actual prep, scouting, practice, stand placement, knowlege of deer patterns, trails, beds, food source, etc... all go into the &quot;bow hunting&quot; ethics. The difference as mentioned is only 10% of the actual &quot;bow hunt&quot; hunt.

I use both a compound and a crossbow and i practice the same amount of time with both. And just because i didnt buy my gear at a &quot;true hunting shop&quot; as you mentioned does not mean anything. Hitting bulls in a few mins with a crossbow is a bit far fetched. However when i practice i do it at different angles, heights, etc....... so that may have a bit of difference to your comment, maybe those folks were on level ground, 15 yards away??

The outdoors is yours, treat it with RESPECT!!!

Edited by - buckforme on 01/24/2002 12:05:08

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

Buckforme, hitting bulls in a few minutes with a crossbow is NOT far fetched. Last summer I wanted to experiment with a crossbow. I bought probably the sorriest POS crossbow made, a Barnett Wildcat, and was shooting CONSISTENT 2&quot; groups at 20 yards within a half hour.

Now, I had a crossbow back in about 1965, but have had nothing to do with one since then and forgot everything I ever knew about them. If someone like me who has almost no experience with a crossbow, no real knowledge other than reading the directions, can do that kind of shooting with that piece of junk Wildcat topped with a cheap .22 scope, I'm certain that someone buying a top of the line Tenpoint or Excalibur mounted with good glass can be wearing out a target in no time.

I'm pretty certain the only reason crossbows are so popular in Ohio is that week long gun season you guys have. You reckon it's just possible that you're overrun with people that want to hunt, but don't have the stones to learn how to shoot a bow?

I'm curious. Does anyone remember how long Ohio's gun season was before the crossbow was legalized?

Edited by - Arthur P on 01/24/2002 13:52:39

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

As far as i know....crossbows are not illegal...i know in some states you have to be disabled to hunt with them....i just got a new crossbow for christmas and i was told by my local pro shop that i could hunt with it sometime in December.....

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

ArthurP: I am sorry you have that perception of Ohio hunters, its a shame that you dont recognize the true aspect of the actual hunt, and that the release, and draw is only about 10% of the hunt. Now mind you i practice alot with both my compound and crossbow from all angles, heights etc...and maybe the majority of hunters do not take the time to practice enough with whatever weapon they use. Do a search on here and you can see that even the high and mighty compound users wound and loose alot of deer!

The outdoors is yours, treat it with RESPECT!!!

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

Hunting with a crossbow is no different than it is with a .44 mag iron sighted revolver. Gotta get close with both. Gotta get the sights on the ribcage with both. Gotta squeeze the trigger.

What you DON'T gotta worry about is getting busted by the deer because you DON'T have to make large body movements in order to fire the preloaded and precocked weapon.

I have a very good grasp of the true aspect of the actual hunt, thank you. And you're totally wrong about how important the actual draw of the bow is to the entire process. Finding the animals and getting within range is the 10%. Having the skills and knowledge to be able to camoflage those large body movements in order to draw on a wary animal without being detected is 90%. In fact, it is the essence of bowhunting.

Raising a stock to your shoulder, leveling the crosshairs on the ribcage and pulling the trigger is the essence of gun hunting. Whether the projectile is a bullet or a bolt, it doesn't matter. In that case, I agree. The shot itself is worth about 10% of the hunt.

Of course, that makes crossbow hunting about 90% easier than bowhunting. Doesn't it.

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

Buck4me...This is why I don't like the x-bow discussion. I don't like them...and there's always somebody that wants to persuade me into liking them. I won't...

First off, you're right, where you buy your bow doesn't matter. I was simply making a point that you need no professional help at all with a crossbow. You pick it up...load it and shoot it. With a compound, you need a peep put on, a kisser button, string silincers. All of which you and I probably do ourselves...most beginners cannot. Tuning is not the issue with a crossbow that it is with any longbow...your arrow rest is fixed.

Secondly...The draw and release is only 10%??? It isn't for me. I'm not questioning you...It's more important than that to me. I've been busted drawing probably 10 times since I've been bowhunting...even killed 2 that busted me. That's 8 times. I've only killed about 30 deer with a bow. I've wounded 2, drawn on a couple that I ended up not shooting at. That means that out of about 42 deer I've drawn on...the draw cost me 8 of em. Probably none of those busts would have occured with a crossbow.

I'm not bashing you for using one. I don't care. I'm just not happy about fighting for an acre to hunt because everybody's now a &quot;bow&quot; hunter. The crossbow has done that.

JMHO

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

you guys that like crossbows should go to
www.huntingpa.com their is a big debate over their they need some new meat to fight with.

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

People like Dep

Good Luck This Season: Buck Magnet
P.S. Only Chuck Adams can sit at home and see deer so get into the woods. =;^)

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

Why are the not illegal in other places<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

Im not sure why they are here in PA.

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

Buckforme
Here we go,<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> I just hope Dep doesnt spot this thread. I will agree that the hunt is 100% the same until the moment of truth. But having the xbow cocked at the moment of truth is, in my opinion a huge and fundamental difference.

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

I can gladly go tell Dep about this thread if you guys want me to?????<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

Don't go to huntingpa.com....I post over there...infrequently...and I have to tell you that I am rather disappointed with some of the replies I have gotten to some posts.....

...especially the &quot;blue laws/Sunday hunting issue&quot;...



Edited by - PABowhntr on 01/24/2002 18:09:26

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

sorry but i did find this section.still trying to push a compound onto others.i think it was said best when it was said that you are missing the essence of the hunt.the hunting tool does not make the hunt. the hunter makes the hunt. i see you are still into name calling.

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

Frank, Did you go and rat us out? <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

Several Points here: One, why was the other crossbow topic locked on the other forum

Two, I was reading the posts on the huntingpa board and wow.... do they hate the crossbow. One thing that i found quite disturbing what the impression alot of these folks have about the crossbows being un-ethical. I think its the person who makes the hunt un-ethical, not the weapon of choice. One guy claimed that all of the wounded deer in Ohio were from crossbows. How can you prove that when all arrows / bolts use broadheads????

Three: Only 10% is the acutal prep and the release and draw is 90%??? I disagree with you on that. Any movement must be masked and cammoed, ANY MOVEMENT. But that does on matter if you ahve not done the prep work to get you to that small instance when you can actually draw and release or raise and shoot. Full body movement to draw a compound??? I use a compound, and i dont use full body movement to come to draw. Why do you use full body movement. I guess i may be confused as to your statement about full body draw.

DEP: Welcome back! Alot of people love you on here!!!!!

The outdoors is yours, treat it with RESPECT!!!

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

HNI Visitor - Where are they NOT legal ?

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

I have a question.......for the ladies and gentlemen that are opposed to x-bows, for hunting purposes. Humor me, lets say x-bows are legal in every state, and you had a state vote, to ban the use of x-bows for the purpose of hunting in your state, would you vote for it, or against it???

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

I would vote against the use of them in archery season for people who aren't disabled. I believe that if they aren't disabled, they shot take some time and master a long/recurve/compound. Thats my personal thoughts.

Good Luck This Season: Buck Magnet
P.S. Only Chuck Adams can sit at home and see deer so get into the woods. =;^)

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

Man i just got my hand slapped on another section of this board for questioning why a topic was locked. I hope this topic does not get locked. I was wondering when Buck Magnet was going to respond to this one! Welcome back!!!

The outdoors is yours, treat it with RESPECT!!!

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

They are not legal to hunt with in New York.
Those devices that will hold the string back
on your compound are not legal to hunt with either. Since they are already banned for
hunting here, I dont have to vote. I do approve of people with disabilities using them. One more question to stir the pot.
If crossbows were to become legal to use
in archery season, do you think we would
see a large increase in the number of bow
licenses sold? I certainly do.

[Deleted]
 

[Deleted by Admins]

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

I went home for lunch today and i was watching the Outdoor Channel. Our old buddy Keith Warren came on. I usually can't stand the guy and this time was no different, but I was interested in the show due to this very topic. He was bragging about the fact that two first time crossbow hunters were going hog hunting. The guide basically took 5 minutes to teach the two fishing guides how to shoot the crossbow, and next thing you see is them in the stand. Both shot hogs, but it also appeared that both shots were a little high and a bit far back. Both animals were recovered. My point is, I wonder how many people do this very thing? Go to Academy the night before season, pick out a crossbow, maybe shoot at a pie plate and go hunting. Keith Warren was even praising the crossbow for getting more people to archery hunt. I know people do the same thing with rifles every year too, but I don't think crossbows should be used in archery season.

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

a spear gun or crossbow except for a physically disabled person in possession of a Modified Crossbow Permit.

They ARE legal in NY according to the regulations if the person using it has a permit. I think its odd that they wouldn't be legal in modern gun, but it IS NY. Still waiting to see where they are totally banned ....

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

There is a lot more meaning when you shoot a bow as opposed to shooting a crossbow. Its too much like a gun. I shot my first deer with a bow and I decided I was not satisfied w/ the results. Honestly it wuz just too easy. Thats when i decided that i am going to buy a bow. and i did!! but they should be for disabled people and let the others not be lazy!!!

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

Ok to clarify this: I use both a compound and a crossbow depending on what stand or terrain i am hunting in. And practice hours and hours with both...... Lets say we both do the exact same prescouting, spent hours selecting the right stand location in relation to time of year, wind, beds, trails and food source, have spend 100 hours practicing with our bows, have got the scentloc suits, a climber or a fixed stand, etc...... Spend hours on stand, nothing, then finally one day (after grunting with our Buckcall) we BOTH get the opportunity of a life time......same day we both have a HUGE buck 20 yards out in a firing lane we cleared out....... we both nail him, direct pass through, deer runs 40 yards and drops, we wait about 30 to 40 mins to decend, pack our gear, gut and drag.......We did everything the same except i used a crossbow and you a compound...... Now does that make me LAZY!!!???? Maybe i have a different view on this since i do use both bows, and i do spend alot of time practicing with both. I dont care how easy it is to shoot or sight in a crossbow, that is not an excuse for not practicing alot of hours with it at different hiegths, angles, etc.....Just becasue at times i use a crossbow (its legal in Ohio) does not classify me as LAZY.

The outdoors is yours, treat it with RESPECT!!!

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

I believe the whole thing isn't the dedicated crossbow users. I think that it has to do with the rifle hunters that never bowhunter buying crossbows to use them. I know that in Pennsylvania, if crossbows are legal for everyone, a bunch of gun hunters who never shot a bow in their life are going to buy crossbows, shot them a couple times until they are &quot;good and accurate&quot; then go out and attempt to harvest an animal. These are the lazy people that everyone is talking about. They are going to be using the crossbow like a gun. They will do minimal practicing. They will get out in the woods, attemp shots that are too far and too risky. They will end up wounding too many deer. We have over a milling hunters in Pennsylvania, something like 350,000 archers. Lets say another 350,000 gun hunters buy crossbows, don't practice with them, go out and wound deer. That is a lot of WOUNDED DEER. I agree that you have to do the same preseson scouting, stand hanging, calling,... Its just that I know a lot more lazy rifle hunters would get crossbows and start wounding deer. Do you understand where I am comming from?


Good Luck This Season: Buck Magnet
P.S. Only Chuck Adams can sit at home and see deer so get into the woods. =;^)

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

buck magnet-first sensible argument you have given. i agree to a point with you. the only difference is that the same thing can be said about compounders. you by saying this acknowledged that it is not the tool, it is the person.

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

Buckforme
You make a valid point regarding the hunt and getting to the point where you have the deer into bow/xbow range. I also agree that the xbow has roughly the same distance limitations. Not that it loses accuracy past 30 yards but more that the noise factor makes it inneffective much past 30.
I have no problems with a crossbow being treated as a seperate weapon but I have two major problems with allowing it for the able bodied in archery season.
First, as I said in the other thread that eventually got locked, I own one. I have no disability but use it in a suburban deer control program in the gun season on properties where guns are not permitted. I shot 3 deer with it this year including a 129 6/8&quot; buck. I can honestly say that the buck and one of the does would still be walking around if I'd had to draw a conventional bow. (I had to hunt tight spaces where it was tough to be concealed well with VERY people smart deer residing there.) My point is the success rate would be higher than conventional bows and it wouldn't be fair that the large majority of bowhunters would have to have a shorter season due to a fundamentally different weapon being brought into an established season.
My second problem is one I bet you can really appreciate is that bowhunting takes a serious commitment. Something I suspect you have for your sport. My worry here is that the crossbow proponents I see here that arent in it for the money are looking for an easy way to get in on the extra time archers have in the woods. Archers get lots of woods time simply because what they do is harder than many have the patience and perseverence for. The success rate is relatively low. Lots of woods time is one of the rewards that makes the challenge worth it. From what I've seen , I think it's a legitimate concern that the woods will swell with &quot;shortcutters&quot; and seriously detract from a long standing respected sport.
:)JMHO:)

BTW this is strictly a personal opinion, but shooting that 129&quot; buck with an xbow did detract from my sense of accomplishment.
That is strictly my personal opinion!

Edited by - btbowhunter on 01/25/2002 17:26:49

Edited by - btbowhunter on 01/25/2002 17:29:49

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

Buck Magnet,

Your estimate of new bow/X-bow hunters amazed me. You said that Pa. has one million hunters of which 350,000 are archers. If the X-bow attracted 350,000 new gun hunters to try the X-bow that would require over half the gun owners to buy a X-bow. Not very likly. Perhaps 10% at most. And many of them won't last more than a few seasons when they find out that except for being held at drw for them the X-bow has all the other limitations. So five years after the X-bow was allowed I doubt you'd have more than 40,000 &quot;new archers&quot; that you other wise wouldn't have.

I learned a number of things from the other thread that got locked about this issue.

1. BOTH weapons have a good number of &quot;bells and whistles&quot; that can be added at extra cost. I first though that the X-bow had a advantage in this area when looking in my hunting equipment catalogs. The X-bow can use a scope after all. But when I consider just how much help a scope would be at 30 yards or less vs. a scopes limited field of veiw I don't see one having much advantage over the other.

2. Many long bow (all types of verticle bows) hunters seem to have a real fear of allowing the X-bow for fear it will shorten their seasons.

3. A perception by many that the X-bow is somehow &quot;unfair&quot;. I don't get this one at all. If true, then the compound should also be condemned as it shares many advantages over recurve and long bow. I alos wonder why the state of Ohio has more verticle bow hunters than X-bow hunters even though both have been legal there for years. Choice of the individual. Or just because the X-bow isn't as huge a advantage as some think.

4. A allowance of the X-bow as a legal to use for all sportsmen for deer hunting would be a help in areas that need greater numbers of deer to be taken. Although this would be mimimal as Ohio shows the X-bow wouldn't add greatly to hunter numbers.

5. both these weapons use stick and string and suffer the limits there of. Both require a strong commitment to time scouting, placeing of stands, good camo, use of wind and many other factors that could be included. What it all boils down to is one is already at drawn when the deer arrives, the other isn't. The holding of the bow at draw means little or nothing. With compounds now being sold with a 83% let off there isn't much to hold, only the motion of drawing it. And there is motion in raiseing the X-bow to shoulder it for a shot as well, NOT as much as the long arm movments required to draw a bow of any other type but still a fair amount. And any movement can easily spook deer.

The question asked by HNI Visitor is, I think, really asking why they arn't allowed for all hunters to use. And there isn't any reason based on biology or any other sound proofs. Only bias amoung hunters themselves, and that is a sad thing.

While I don't hunt with either of these two weapons I do think the X-bow should be allowed to all. Let all hunt with the weapon of choice. The seasons will be set acording to what the needs are of the resourse, as it should be. The choice of weapon to use to take a deer, should be a individual one.

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

Craig, here is a modified excerpt from a post I made on another site. I can't say it applies to every state, but it is what I think the impact would be in Texas.

&quot;1999. A total of 25,548 deer taken in archery season statewide. Of those, 10,984 were taken by conventional bows, meaning longbow, recurve and compound. The remaining 14,564 were taken with crossbows. So, the crossbow accounted for 57% of all deer taken during Ohio's archery deer season.

2000. 29,319 deer taken. 16,946 crossbow kills. 12,373 conventional bow kills. Nearly 58%

But that's nothing new. According to ODNR, the crossbow has been outproducing conventional bow harvest every year since 1989, only 13 years after they legalized the crossbow in 1976. ODNR is really proud of that for some reason, because they go to great pains to point out that little tidbit of information in many of their news releases.

There used to be a breakdown of all hunters by weapon that showed crossbow hunters also outnumber conventional archers, but it seems they removed that page from their archives. At least, I can't find it any longer. Anyway, it seems things started out with a few crossbow hunters wanting inclusion in what was originally a BOW season, but the season has now become more of a CROSSBOW season.

Nobody seems to remember how long the gun season was before Ohio legalized the crossbow, so I've done some research. Deer were totally eradicated from Ohio in 1904. They didn't come back strong enough to allow hunting again until 1943. Gun hunting doesn't have anywhere near the tradition or history in Ohio that it does elsewhere. Certainly NOT like the rabid obsession it is here in Texas.

That is undoubtedly why Ohio's gun hunters can accept a 6-day season. Ohio is successful with crossbows because of your state's game managment history. If the bow harvest in Texas was eventually more than doubled by the inclusion of crossbows, like what has happened in Ohio, our 29 day bow season would be cut. Probably terminated. The game commission will not allow the gun season to suffer in this state.&quot;

I agree with your point that Ohio statistics do not show an increase in total number of hunters as a direct result of allowing the crossbow. I presume that most of the crossbow hunters are gun hunters that choose a crossbow rather than learn how to shoot a bow. After all, they are used to shouldering their weapon and squeezing the trigger, so it's a familiar operational format. Better to be in the woods, hunting with a crossbow, for 4 months than to wait all year for a 6-day gun season.

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

Craig...I see your points. Living in Ohio, I get to see the ill effects of the crossbow first hand. Since the crossbow has been legalized in Ohio, we have 5X the bowhunters. (No stats...just my observations) The bow season used to be a peaceful event. Now in many areas, it is like gun season.

I am a high school math teacher. I can't tell you how many kids that I have bringing in pictures of 8pts or 10pts that they killed with a &quot;bow&quot;. They did kill them...they use crossbows. I can't see these kids taking the time to learn the recurve/compound and practice to get it right. The crossbow hunters outnumber the longbow hunters 2 to 1 around here. Maybe higher.

I don't look down upon a guy who chooses to use a crossbow. It just makes me look &quot;upward&quot; to those of us who still choose to use a real bow here in Ohio.

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

I'm not in favor of crossbows. I have one. The only real difference in a compound and a crossbow that I can see is in the draw. When I started hunting with a bow there were no compounds, sights, releases, silencers, and all the other stuff. That's the challenge. Same goes for the new muzzle loaders. Why a special season for a gun that shots almost as well as an .06 or slug shotgun.

LIVE FREE OR DIE

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

Seems my questions go unanswered ...

1) Where are crossbows illegal ?

2) If its the hunter, and not the weapon ( as many crossbow hunters/advocates argue} then why can I not use a 6 inch barreled, iron sighted handgun in archery season - because it aint going to be any more accurate really that a high tech compound.


No one answers #2 - because there you cannot aruge &quot;its the type if weapon you use&quot; and then turn around and say nope to a limited range firearm. Oh, its archery you say ? Archery - like the type where you draw, with a release aid, a machined aluminum riser bow, carbon limbs, 80% letoff (thats holding a mere 12 pounds for a 60 lb bow), shooting a carbon arrow with a mechanical tip, using a laser sight and a zero-effect rest ....... yeah, thats a bow and a cross bow isn't ?

I say crossbows for handi-cap persons in archery season, legal for gun season ( why not ?) and let it be at that. Why do I draw those lines ? Because of the skill and practice factor. Sure, you aint going to get all compound shooters to do it right, but crossbows make it darn easy to do it wrong - often.

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

you can use that handgun in texas. it has to be used during rifle season. i see no problem at all with any wepon used as long as the USER is ethical in his or her hunting

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

Stealthy,
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>They ARE legal in NY according to the regulations if the person using it has a permit. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

The permit you speak of is for a modified Crossbow permit.The crossbow can not fire conventially.You must have a blow tube attached to use one in NY.It's not like other states where you can get a permit for one because you have a hang nail.I can't find the data but I would bet there are maybe 100 guys in NY using one.

As far as I'm concerned if you let go of the string and nothing happens it should not be in bow season.

I have no problem with the crossbow being used to hunt with.In some states muzzle loader and archery overlap,let crossbows hunt in that type season season or during gun season.