RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

Dont have the Stats but from the many Ohio bowhunters I've talked to over the years. (At IBO shoots and I've got relatives in OH)
Their opinion is that the woods became swamped with crossbows and it has detracted from the bow season. At least for them.

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

charlie p-you can get a crossbow permit in texas with a hang nail. you have to have a upper body disability that limits your being able to pull back the string. that permit is allowed after you get a doctors letter stating that you have the disability. know where does it say anything about a hang nail.everything you say about a crossbow can be said about a compound bow.

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

The "point" i see here is the fear of allowing crossbows in other states during the archery season because of unethical hunters wanting an extended season. The point was made that alot of gun hunters would take up the crossbow just to give them an extended season. This relates to laziness in ther preparation and basically wounded deer. In other words they would not respect the true sport of bow hunting. I agree with you here. So i would assume the problem here is the "un ethical" hunter in the woods rather the type of bow used.

The outdoors is yours, treat it with RESPECT!!!

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

Stealthy - Here's a rough breakdown, state by state.

Legal in archery season: Arkansas, Indiana (late season only), Ohio, S. Carolina, Wyoming

Crossbow season: Kentucky

Disabled in archery season: Alabama, Connecticutt, Delaware, Georgia, Illinios, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Louisiana, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnestota, Mississippi, Missouri, Nebraska, New Hampshire, New York, N Carolina, N Dakota, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Virginia, Wisconsin

Legal in general (gun) season: Alaska, California, Colorado, Delaware, Florida, Hawaii (private land only), Idaho, Kentucky, Michigan, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, S Carolina, Texas

Not recognized as a hunting weapon: Maine, Nevada, New Mexico, Oregon, Rhode Island, W Virginia

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

Dep, The hangnail comment was tongue in cheek,ok? You stated that you need an upper disability to get a x-bow permit in Texas,right.How many of the guys that have them get them and don't really need them.It happens all the time,a guy goes to his doctor and says I'm haveing problems pulling back my bow for whatever reason they come up with.The unsuspecting Doc writes them a scrip so they can get a permit.

I've had four back surgeries do you think I could get a permit in Texas?I have a permanent 50% disability that involves my upper body.You know what? I don't need to use a X-bow, I can still shoot a compound with no problem.Even with titanum cages in my back.Do you understand where I'm coming from?

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>everything you say about a crossbow can be said about a compound bow. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>


Your totally wrong here.If I let go of the string (fingers or release) the arrow shoots,right? I have to hold the string back,myself it doesn't stay back with out me holding it.You can try and compare the trigger on a release to the trigger on a X-bow, but the argument doesnt hold water.

If I bring my arm forward with out touching off the release the string will also come forward, right?

After cocking a X-bow what happens when you remove your arm from the cocking device? That's right absolutely nothing.It remains cocked all day.

I'll say this again. I think people should be allowed to hunt with X-bows,just not in the archery only seasons.

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

Buckforme, I think you hit hte nail square on the head. Imagine with our hunter numbers here in Pa if that happens. Turning back would be very difficult if that happened here. That's the main reason I advocate seperate seasons, very limited in scope at first. If the worst fears don't materialize then I think many bowhunters, and so far the anti xbowers are a LARGE majority here, might be willing to bend.

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

Charlie, Texas doesn't issue crossbow permits for the disabled. All they have to have is a doctor's letter. A problem with your back, even a shoulder, doesn't qualify. It has to be an upper limb disability. Here's the regulation:

&quot;ONLY a person with an upper-limb disability* may use a crossbow to hunt deer and turkey during the Archery Only Open Season, provided the person, while hunting, has in their immediate possession a physician?s statement certifying the extent of the disability.

An *upper-limb disability is a permanent loss of the use of fingers, hand, or arm in a manner that renders the person incapable of using lawful archery equipment.&quot;

Probably a lot of guys ask their doctors for letters and the doctors never read the regulation.

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

Arthur, Thanks for clearing that up.Dep had posted
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>you have to have a upper body disability that limits your being able to pull back the string. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

I know a fuy that hunts here in NY that pulls the string back with his teeth.He has a tab on the string that allows him to do it.He's taken quite a few deer with the set-up.Disclaimer: I only mentioned this because I find it interesting.

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

did not mean to say permit. it is a letter from a doctor that has to be carried at all times with your regular hunting license. it has to be updated every year.

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

Arthur P - Excellent - THAT was what I was looking for.

My point is, people argue that its not the weapon that makes the hunter what the hunter is, its the ability to get close ( these people are crossbow shooters and very high techy compound shooters) but in the same breath they don't want a short ranged handgun shooter hunting their archery season, or a flintlock shooter, or a shotgun, buckshot only hunter. So see, its NOT about shooting range, its about the weapon, isn't it ? Yes it is, there, lets all say it together now ...

ITS ALL ABOUT THE WEAPON AND NOT ABOUT HOW CLOSE WE CAN GET TO GAME ...

thank you

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

Stealthy,

I could really screw this up for you and say that it isn't about distance but rather the trajectory....but we won't go there....<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>....

I tend to agree with this paragraph of yours...

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I say crossbows for handi-cap persons in archery season, legal for gun season ( why not ?) and let it be at that. Why do I draw those lines ? Because of the skill and practice factor. Sure, you aint going to get all compound shooters to do it right, but crossbows make it darn easy to do it wrong - often.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

Well said.

Edited by - PABowhntr on 01/28/2002 13:21:57

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

PABowhntr

We could even talk about the constantly expanding drift between compounds and longbows/recurves ! Talk about 140 FPS self bow, 170 FPS longbow/recurve, as opposed to a compound of 280 FPS and crossbow at the same.

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

I have 2 questions..... KEEP IN MIND I SHOOT BOTH A COMPOUND AND A CROSSBOW:

What is the time it takes to draw a compound and what is the time to shoulder a crossbow?

What exact upper body movement is required for both?



The outdoors is yours, treat it with RESPECT!!!

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

Yeah, but Stealthy, the longbow/recurves are so much quieter...<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

Buck4me...
You do have to move to shoulder a crossbow. However:

1. You can take 15 minutes to shoulder that crossbow and once shouldered, you can hold it there as long as need be. Granted you can draw a bow slowly...but no comparison. Plus, even with 85% let off, you can't hold a compound all day.

2. From a seated position, you can have a crossbow shouldered with approximately 18&quot; movement. Just raise crossbow. With a compound, you have to level the bow vertically, push with the right arm and pull with the left. (I'm a lefty) That's about 36&quot; of total movement as I figure it.

Not to mention that leaning around a tree with a x-bow changes nothing. Shooting sitting with a x-bow changes nothing.

Once again, I don't think less of a crossbow hunter...they just don't belong in the same season as a guy using a stave of hickory backed with deer sinew...shooting cedar arrows. JMHO

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

A jokester on another site says handgrenades should be legal for bow season because they are hand held, hand drawn and hand released. <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

Hey, they don`t have alot of bells and whistles, either! But, I don`t think that simms limb savers will quite them down, much.<img src=icon_smile_approve.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

I just heard a rumor that someone is coming out with lazer sights and vibration shocks for hand grenades next month. Here we go......<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

Buckforme

Ok we both have hunted with both so lets imagine for a minute .... I'm right handed but a lefty can do this in reverse. A deer sneaks in from my right shoulder and has stopped at close range with me still sitting in my tree. I raise my right arm, rest the xbow on a limb (dont have to trim nearly as many off the tree) and without even shouldering it I can aim and shoot. The only part of me that moved is my right arm. Now same situation but I have a compound with every imaginable gadget. I have to stand, turn my whole body around, draw, aim and shoot..... except I get busted doin all that movin! Real life situation. Any bowhunter who hasn't been there hasn't hunted much.

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

Pretty much ignorance

brian

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

KE KE KE KE KE KE KE!!!!!

>>>>--------o-->

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

Crossbow, locked in position, ready to pull the trigger. Recurve, longbow, compound bow..all drawn before shooting. A crossbow is a short distance version of a rifle. Nothing against handicapped persons using them though.

All in all, some sort of rules or limits must be set. Unfortunately for some, the crossbow falls under that category in most states. For example we could say that anyone wanting to use a spear, baseball, rock, blowgun, hand grenade, bazooka, etc. should be allowed. Just as in most states anything smaller than a 20 gauge shotgun is illegal to deer hunt with. Or anything smaller than a 45 caliber muzzleloader is illegal in many states.

Edited by - Cougar Mag on 01/28/2002 23:09:34

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

Ignorance? Now THAT'S a two way street.

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

ArthurP, I didn't think of it that way till you posted it but I guess it is. I have nothing bad to say about them and they are more like bows than a gun. Give me a break. It shoots a bolt which is a short arrow has a broadhead to do the killing. there is no explosive at all no primer no brass no gun powder (imr 7828 H1000 RL22 ) So no one here will convince me that they are rifles. Its just a funny looking bow. That you don't have to draw at the moment of truth.

So Arthur does that make more sense to you about where I stand.

Brian

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

God I'm Glad I live In OHIO Where A HUNTER can make a choice in the Hunting TOOL he or she CAN USE. Be it Compound or Crossbow.
For me I have very little movement in my draw with my Compound bow as well very little movement with my Xbow.
It seems you people make way to much movement.
Also the more you can get into a sport like Bow hunting or Hunting in a hole. That means there are more Hunters to fight the ANTIS.
And No I'm not disabled and no I'm Not Lazy

I'M An AMERICAN WITH FREEDOM OF CHOICE GOD BLESS AMERICA

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

PABowhntr - You should hear my longbow - whisper quiet.

buckforme - your crossbow should be balanced on your knee, like a rifle (assuming your portables stands are built low seated like mine). Thats the way I shot them, off a rest. Drawing a compound when the deer is 40 yards out and holding until it comes in is another piece in this puzzle, isn't it ?

Cougar Mag - Way wrong there buddy. Crossbows date a long, long way back, many hundreds of years - they are much more traditional than a compound ever will be ( a compound is what, 50 years old ?) - thats a fact Cougar.

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

well said Nitro

brian

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

445, the direct answer to your question is no. You can shoot a crossbow off a rest, just like a firearm. I prefer to shoot my crossbow off a rest as a matter of fact. Even though it doesn't go 'bang', the crossbow is more akin to hunting with an iron sighted handgun rather than a bow.

Nitro, I've spent a lot of time studying the harvest data on the ODNR website. In Ohio, you are confined to hunting with bow and crossbow, with a few days of hunting with a shotgun and another few days of muzzleloader. Thank God I live in Texas, where I can hunt deer with a whole varitey of weapons. Handguns, rifles, shotguns, muzzleoaders or bows. As well as crossbows. And I can hunt with any of them, at my whim, for 11 months of the year, taking spring turkey season, small game, varmints and feral hogs into account. Bows just give me an average of an extra 29 days. And even then, those 29 days are pre-rut. The rut doesn't get into full swing until the gun opener in November.

With the political structure and big money interests in gun hunting here, I have grave concerns about crossbows being allowed in our bow season. In Ohio, crossbow harvest has exceeded bow harvest each year since 1989. In other words, take out the crossbow figures and the harvest would be less than half of what it is now. If crossbows more than doubled the bow harvest here, like the numbers in Ohio shows is very possible, then our bow season would be cut, or eliminated.

Perhaps you question that? Deer hunting has a $2.2 billion dollar impact, according to Texas Parks and Wildlife Department, on the Texas economy. The biggest part of that money comes from gun hunting. The big game ranches are already trying to get bow season consolidated into the general season. It would mean an extra $500 million, give or take a few 10's of millions, to the linings of their pockets. The game commission here is heavily influenced by the ranches and I guarantee that they will not allow the gun season to be negatively impacted by an increased bow harvest. Money talks.

Hunter success rates in Ohio run about 33%. Ten year average hunter success rate in Texas is 75%. Ohio has a 4 month bow season and a 6 day gun season. Texas has a 29 day bow season and a 3 month gun season. What works in Ohio won't work everywhere.

Also, how can you draw and shoot a bow without more movement than you can shoot a crossbow? The arm and shoulder are rather large body parts that are in motion for a good 20&quot; (for a short armed shooter) compared to squeezing your index finger a half inch.



Edited by - Arthur P on 01/29/2002 09:42:44

[Deleted]
 

[Deleted by Admins]

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

Arthur P

Well thought out and well written. I hope you wont mind that I intend to save your post. It will be handy any time I get into a debate over crossbows.<img src=icon_smile_approve.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

I dont use a rest when i shoot my crossbow, and i (in my situation) tend to move a bit more with my compound then i do with my crossbow. However, with a deer behind me i would stand and move to face that direction no matter what bow i am using that day. I was just curious to see how many hunters who slam a crossbow actually have hunted with one and to see they could compare movements between the two bows. When i shoulder my xbow, its not on a rest, i hold it there until the deer gives me a shot. Now grant it, holding a compund bow at full draw, and shouldering a xbow is a bit different.....but the same in alot of instances.

The outdoors is yours, treat it with RESPECT!!!

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

&quot;Now grant it, holding a compund bow at full draw, and shouldering a xbow is a bit different.....but the same in alot of instances.&quot;

Would you expand on that statement a little and describe how holding a compound at full draw and shouldering a crossbow is the same?

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

I would be glad to.....depending on the &quot;let-off&quot; of some bows, holding a xbow and compound are virtually the same in this regard, you still have to keep still, level and on target. I USE BOTH so i speak from my own experience only here. My xbow wieghs 17lbs if that gives you a better idea. Now with a lesser let off the odds favor the xbow at &quot;hold on target&quot; but as the let off increases the ease of both becomes equal.

I have a question about your numbers of xbow kills versus bow kills in Ohio. To my knowledge or experience i have never been asked when checking in my deer if i used a xbow or a compound, and i have taken deer in every season with one or the other. Where did those stats come from? Maybe they only &quot;poll&quot; a few hunters at a few check stations? Just curious thats all.

The outdoors is yours, treat it with RESPECT!!!

Edited by - buckforme on 01/29/2002 13:57:14

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

I am glad i dont live in Texas, only 29 days to bowhunt.... God i would go crazy.....and 3 months to gun hunt??? Man, no wonder your success rate is so high......If they would shorten the gun season and increase the bow season would you be over run with the deep population?

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

BClark -

341 BC
Earliest reliable record of crossbow use at battle of Ma-Ling in China.

228 BC
Earliest crossbow artifact, a bronze lock mechanism from the tomb of Yu Wang.

0-100 AD
Heron of Alexandria describes gastraphetes.

300-700
Roman carvings of crossbows.

385
Vegetius mentions crossbows in DE RE MILITARIA.

1066
Crossbows introduced to England by Normans.

1096
Anna Comnena describes Norman crossbows.

1100-1200
Composite crossbow lath appears.

1139
2nd Lateran Council interdict forbids use of crossbow among Christians.

1192
Crusader victory at Jaffa aided by crossbows.

1314
Earliest reliable record of steel lath.

1346
Genoese crossbowmen defeated at Crecy by English longbowmen.

1373
Earliest illustration of cranequin.

1503
First of many English laws restricting possession and use of crossbows.

1550-1600
Firearms replace crossbows in most Western armies.

1860
Photographic evidence from Chinese shows repeating crossbows still used there as military weapons.

1939-45
&quot;Arrowspeed&quot; crossbow used by Australian commandos in Pacific Theatre.

1945-1975
Crossbows employed by Montagnard peoples and US special forces during Vietnam conflict.

1960?-present
Crossbows used to shoot anesthetic darts for capturing and treating wildlife; also used to obtain tissue samples from marine animals for obtaining genetic information

Just a little history on the crossbow. They are traditional archery equipment much more so than a compound. Explain your statement then ... Cougar hasn't replied, has he ?

Arthur P - well thought out post

buckforme - use a rest for God's sake - you'll be MUCH more accurate. Yes, I have shot both, I aint ignorant on the matter. Holding on a crossbow is zero, holding on a 60 pound Q2XL is about 12 pounds, holding on a longbow/recurve is 100%.

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

LOL..... I am very accurate with both bows, i practice lots of hours with both but dont like the rests, get in my way too much. How can you say a hold of a xbow is zero....that is unless its on a rest....then i would agree with you.

The outdoors is yours, treat it with RESPECT!!!

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

Good Lord!!! 17 pounds??!? You haul that thing around in a trailer or what? <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> Mine weighs about 7 pounds with scope and quiver full of bolts.

I don't disagree with you on the high letoff compounds. In fact, that's the main reason Pope and Young won't budge on their 65% minimum. They knew the crossbow proponents would someday make that argument. However, getting TO full draw with a deer in front of you is still a bit more difficult than simply shouldering a crossbow.

The Ohio kill numbers came off the ODNR website. It's your game department, not mine. You would have a better idea of how they come up with their data than I would. But, I have to admit to a little ignorance on my part how my state comes up with it's numbers.

As to whether our deer population would overrun everything if they shortened our gun season, the answer is yes. Texas has about 4 million whitetail deer and, with just under 600,000 hunters, we NEED that 75% success rate. But, as I said earlier, you can hunt with whatever you want to hunt with in the gun season, aside from some public lands that restrict you to shotgun, muzzleloader, bow or crossbow.

I wish I could give you hard data on Texas bow season, but several years ago TPWD started selling licenses with all stamps and permits needed for nearly all hunting and fishing in the state. So, someone that only goes fishing for redfish or hunting for whitewing dove and needs those permits but doesn't have any interest in turkey hunting or bowhunting, he will buy the combined license with the turkey and archery permits. It's cheaper than just getting the hunting/fishing license with only the permits he needs. So, we really don't know how many are bowhunting. We don't have check-in stations either, so they can't do any on site surveys.

That's why I don't know how my state gets it's data. I can tell you that bowhunters don't like it for that very reason. We don't know how many of us there are. We can't go to the commission and say there are 'X' number of people they are going to mess up by pulling one of their little schemes to get guns into bow season. We had a devil of a time last winter when TPWD proposed a youth only gun season to be held each and every weekend of bow season. We managed to hold it to only the last weekend, but still, our season was encroached upon.

In fact, we think the license program is a prelude to incorporating the bow season into the general season. If, or when, that happens, the argument against crossbows in this state will be a moot point. And there won't be any more crossbow hunters here than there are right now.




Edited by - Arthur P on 01/29/2002 15:44:09

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

Yep, use a winch to bring it up to my stand. Dam thing wieghs as much as my summit bushmaster... Its an older xbow made my huntsman advantage, full stock, heavy limbs, etc...dont have a scope use the rear peep sight with one pin. i have to admit it is one heavy SOB! So my perception of &quot;holding&quot; is centered around my own experience.

I looked at the ODNR site and saw the numbers (scratching my head) i am amazed. I have never in 20 years of bow hunting been asked what type of bow i used. Must be a spot poll from year to year and i just have missed it! <img src=icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle>

The outdoors is yours, treat it with RESPECT!!!

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

Buck4...I thought the same thing about the x-bow vs longbow numbers. We were in a similar discussion earlier this year, and I couldn't remember being asked. However, I was asked this year, and the CO that checked my deer said that everybody should be asked.

I'm like you though...I can't remember being asked in the past.

RE: Why are crossbows illegal?
 

So Stealthycat, you are saying that because xbows are dated much earlier in history than compounds, that crossbows should be legal based on that???? Makes no sense at all. Using that sort of logic, then guns should not be allowed for hunting.