Slowing your hunting arrow down?
 

I've only been at this a few years, now....and I admit to getting caught up in the "speed" thing in the past. Speed is great. It's an advantage in most all cases. Having a bow capable of pushing top speeds is an advantage. If nothing else.....it allows one to set up a heavier arrow and still achieve "optimal" speeds/setups.

That's where I'm coming full circle.

I remember shooting 3D in VA with the TN state champ a couple seasons ago. As always....the conversation got around to hunting. He said he'd taken 17 deer with his bow the prior season. He also said he liked for his hunting setup to push his arrow no more than 250fps. When I asked "why?"....he said ....any faster than that....and he can't see the arrow make impact.

I've always struggled with that, too. I occasionally see the arrow make impact. More times than not...I simply see a hole appear on the animal. I'm trying to build a heavy arrow (for penetration purposes) but I must admit the fact I may see the impact better is a "plus".

I'm in the process of trying to SLOW DOWN my arrow. It's a natural side-effect of adding weight....but I'm looking at it as a "positive". A 30yd shot in my hunting situations is a long shot. So, trajectory issues shouldn't be an issue. If I hunted the western plains....or planned on longer shots in the field....I might have a different outlook.

Looking for +/-525gr. and 250fps. right now. I'll report back when I give them a field test. I've taken my last 11 deer with two pass-thrus. My goal is to have one EVERY time. We'll see. I hope to be able to see my impacts better, too.

Speed is great. Using all that your bow will produce is great.....for some. Having it at your disposal (and being able to do what I'm doing) is something everyone can't do. So....I'm not putting down "speed bows" (quite the contrary). Just offering a different (not "different" to many here who've been around the block and KNOW what I'm talking about) perspective.

RE: Slowing your hunting arrow down?
 

I agree speed isover rated when it comes to eastern up close bow ranges but a flat tradjectory for the longer shooting western guys might be a great benefit.

Jeff have you really only gotten 2 pass thru's out of 11 deer. A hunting buddy of mine was not getting the pass thoughs he expected. He does his own work on his bow but had never shot through paper. It turns out his tears were poor. He shot well but the arrows were hitting the bull with a slight cant to them which really affected penetration.

RE: Slowing your hunting arrow down?
 

I'm not making this stuffup. I'm concerned. My bow (believe me) is in tune. I BH tune it....and admittedly don't paper tune. When I go to 60 yds and get true flight.....I'm pretty sure it's true at the shorter distances. My arrows are impacting my target(s) in a linear fashion (no fish-tailing).

These results are with two different bows over the better part of two seasons. Two bows with two different #-ages (66#'s and 60#'s).....producing KE #'s in the +/-70FP's to almost 80FP's.

As soon as my shafts get here....I'll have the arrow I want to try built. We'll go from there.

RE: Slowing your hunting arrow down?
 

Jeff.

If you go for a extreme high FOC arrow you will get better arrow flight and a lot more penetration.

What arrows are you getting?

You can get 100grbrass inserts from www.3riversarchery.com for just about any shaft combine those with a 125gr head and your FOC should be right up there as long as the arrow is spined right for your set up you should not have any trouble getting a pass through

RE: Slowing your hunting arrow down?
 

I went the speed route last year with the X Force and I was shooting over 300 fps, that was fast for me with 26.5" draw, but I was not able to shoot it well...this yr with Ally Im shooting 280 fps and i think this is ideal for hunting.

RE: Slowing your hunting arrow down?
 

I'm a bit puzzled on the lack of pass-throughs you are getting too. Rage or not, you are pushing good energy. I have always shot bows on the slower side, mostly because of my draw length. At 32" of draw, my arrows are inherently long, thus adding weight. Fine by me though! My current setup with my Commander is only going 268 on the chrono, but my 565 gr. arrow is getting 90#s of energy. I've never really conciously thought about the visual impact this has, as far as being able to see the arrow in flight, since I've always been able to see mine plodding toward the intended target. I think you will like the slower arrow in the hunting environment, and if you are only shooting to 30 yards, even better. The one advantage I see with my slower bow, is that my sight pins are farther apart, eliminating any pin confusion. I know this shouldn't happen, but when Mossy Horns Ghost Face is standing there, I don't need anything else to worry about!

Are you switching bows too do you think?

RE: Slowing your hunting arrow down?
 

Kanga:

I'm looking at either the a/c/c 3-60 OR the PSE Black Mamba. I'll pull the trigger on one of them, today.

I bought the muzzy 100gr brass inserts....and I'll compliment them with a 100gr BH. Total arrow weight should be around 515gr.

RE: Slowing your hunting arrow down?
 

Jeff I completely understand your thinking and (I hope heis not watching this[8D]) but the longer I do this the more I agree with AurturP that momentum is more important than KE. I shoot kind of a mid wieght setup. I am shooting a 434 grain arrow at 287 fps. I have always gotten great pentration out of this setup. According to Dr. Ashby's study of momentum (depending on the braodhead coefficient used) I am getting close to the magic number of .57 foot pounds of momentum. I shoot mechanicals either Undertakers or Rages depending on the day. I have had great success with both. I actually shot a doe the other day and dead centered the femur on the offside leg as it exited and it snapped the leg bone and still passed through. I shoot a heavier arrow to slow my bow down and would actually prefer another 25 grains of arrow wieght (125 grain head) but they don't make a 125 grain Rage or Undertaker so I switched back to 100 grain heads. I think you will definitely see your pass through percentage go up though I am suprised you are getting them now. Good luck! Let us know how it turns out.

RE: Slowing your hunting arrow down?
 

I see your point Jeff. I know you all have seen me posting about wanting a fast bow, but it is not to have the fastest bow. My goal is to havea bow that is IBO set for well over 300 this way I can set it up for hunting specs with an arrow 420 grains or better and still hit the 290 to 300 fps. Also as far as point of impact goes thats another reason I will be shooting tracers. I honestly don't see why in the world someone would want to take a bow that shoots 350 fps, and shoot a 350 grain arrow out of it. I think you need a little more punch along with the speed.

RE: Slowing your hunting arrow down?
 

Me like it. I liken it to the impact of a .38 vs a .45.

RE: Slowing your hunting arrow down?
 

No Yoop....no need to change bows. I've finally found the bow I'll shoot for years.....and it took me coming full-circle to do that.

RE: Slowing your hunting arrow down?
 

Just be cautious witn broadhead selection. I just started archery this year after a 15 year hiatus. I was shooting an old Martin Lynx Magnum set at 55lbs using the old Aluminim gamegetter arrows tipped with a mechanical crimson talon broadhead. The deer I arrowed on Election day (wohoo at least something good happed then) only penatrated about 4 inches on a perfect broadside shot 3 inches back from the shoulder.

Upon futher research, the tip on that braodhead requires speed for penetration. It was one of the spiral tips. Tests show it requires about 40 lbs of energy to penetrate deer hide. Slower bows don't produce to much more then that. I was advised to use a cut on contact BH if I continue shooting that bow.

RE: Slowing your hunting arrow down?
 

I'll be interested to hear the results Jeff... so please keep us posted. I too think that a lot of people get caught up in the hype that is "bow speed" when in reality it doesn't take as much speed as one thinks to take down a deer. Now other animals with thicker and tougher hides... maybe.

I too have been debating messing with my arrow as well as poundage to see if I can achieve more accurate flight versus speed. My Guardian is LIGHT YEARS ahead of my old PSE Baby G-Force in regards to speed and quietness. However, even though my Baby-G is a good bit slower than my Guardian... I never had any problems with pass throughs or speed while in the woods with that bow. It was and still is an amazing bow and I keep it as my backup. So in my opinion... my Guardian's speed doesn't really matter all that much to me seeing as I was able to do just as well in the past with a slower bow. Also, when I was shooting my PSE... I had absolutely NO knowledge of arrow spine... that knowledge didn't come until 2 years ago when I really started to research (I'm 27 and been bowhunting regularly for 13 years now).

All of my shots in the past were with Muzzy heads, so obviously I can't comment on the lack of pass throughs with the Rage expandables. That doesn't mean I don't have one in my quiver to test. ;) Like I said... keep us posted... I'm curious to see the results.:D

RE: Slowing your hunting arrow down?
 

GMMAT, I'm gonna go with Yooper on this one. I've been trying to follow your arrow posts, but with work and hunting, it's tough to keep up with threads.

I don't get your 2/11 with pass thru. What happened to the other 9 ? Did you kill them? Not busting your stones, just trying to get an idea of what's going on here. Where are you hitting these deer ? PM me if you don't want to post your info again about this. I'm curious as hel about this.

I certainly don't want to sound like a know-it all, but I've taken 42 whitetails with a bow, and can think of 3 that weren't pass thru's. 5 tops if I rack my brains. I don't shoot anything heavy either. 65lbs tops, 400 grain arrow, 100 gr. muzzy, slik trik, or innerloc broadheads since 1993. For5 years after a shoulder injury in 2000, I shot a 55lb. bow with 28" C Xpress 200 arrow at 7 grains per inch with a 75 gr muzzy. 14 deer down with that combo, only one not a pass thru........and that was because the arrow hit a sapling behind the deer and stuck in it. I like you, take most deer inside 30 yds. Maybe 3 in my life over 30. Tops. And those were pass thru's. I've never owned a hunting that shoots over 270, and never figured up KE or FOC.

As far as seeing your arrow, that's a tough one. With your heavy weight up front, you have room to play with a lighted nock. Bright fletchings help too. But I wouldn't recommend developing a habit of watching your arrows fly. That leads to horrible follow through after release, dropping the bow arm, and peeking up out of your peep/anchor point. You WANT to pick your spot/hair on the deer, focus on it, release, and if all goes well, you'll catch the arrow out of the corner of your eye and see the hole appear on the deer.

Anyway, just some food for thought for you. Not trying to change your mind, or disagree with you, just throwing some #'s out there for you.

RE: Slowing your hunting arrow down?
 

Out of that number, yes....I killed the other 9. Some had entrance/exit wounds (most, really) but a complete pass-thru I did not get.

Here's just a few of the ones from this season that I did not get a complete pass-thru on.

No. 1 shot at 6 yds from 23'



8yds from 23'



23yds from 23'



In each instance...I had and entrance and an exit wound. Numbers one and two I recovered broken arrows near the POI. Number 3...I never recovered the arrow.

RE: Slowing your hunting arrow down?
 

Here's the 4th bowkill from this season....shot at 10 yds from 23'. I recovered the arrow 10yds from the POI....and I also got an entrance/exit wound.

RE: Slowing your hunting arrow down?
 

My arrow flys at 223FPS and I can consistantly hit a 4" circle at 45 yds. My max hunting range is 25 yds but I would use the same arrow at 45 yds and quite possibly even farther if I ever needed to hunt at those ranges. I never understood the need for a flat trajectory if you can hit your spot, regardless of range. I'll take my slow, heavy, high FOCarrow and stack its performance against any fast, light, low FOCarrow at any range.

Kudos to you, GMMAT, for being willing to look at other options to improve the performance of your hunting setup instead of just saying, "...it's good enough, it kills deer....". It may kill deer but it isn't performing up to the level you expect and that is what we need to have confidence in our setups.

RE: Slowing your hunting arrow down?
 

I agree that speed is overrated for hunting. Yes...its nice, but certainly not needed, especially when the majority of shots are < 30yds. I shoot a 530gr arrow @ 240fps....I get passthroughs 90+% of the time. If I dont...its typically becasue I made a bad shot like into the knuckle joint or something. Keep in mind, I shot Muzzy's for years, then went to Magnus about 5-6 yrs ago. Both have performed excellent for me. Only thing I can think for you is that the BH's you've been using are just eating up tons of energy. Even so....its still puzzling why you haven't gotten more passthroughs though, you've hit your deer well. No major bone involved - should be blowing right through imo. ? Good luck.

SA - you are right, ArthurP is probably right. [8D]Think about the older bows, or even the guys who shoot recurves with a good broadhead (and heavy arrow) that still get passthroughs....gotta be something to it.

RE: Slowing your hunting arrow down?
 

I've said this before..... I shoot fixed pins and fixed blade broadheads.

I get the best results by shooting 270-275 fps. It also keeps a bigger gap between my pins for easier sighting.

RE: Slowing your hunting arrow down?
 

Jeff-

Weird. Just last night, Iswitched and re-tuned my bow for 7595 GT Pro Hunters with a 100 grain Muzzy brass insert. This may not quailfy as an 'extreme' FOC set-up. But, as soon as I get some more doe tags, I will have a report.

I don't keep track of pass thru's. However, most of my stands are 25+ - which is essential given the pressure in this area.It is much more difficult to achieve a pass thru from higher stand heights. I know you're a statistics fiend. Can you correlate your pass thru's to the heights from which the deer were shot?

Thanks to Kanga and Aussieguy for their help in drinking the high FOC Koolaid.

RE: Slowing your hunting arrow down?
 

Arthur P and Dr. Ashby all in one post. Whats the world coming to? What's next Single Beveled Grizzly Broadheads? :D:D:D

RE: Slowing your hunting arrow down?
 

Aftershock Archery makes 25 grain Boosters that will increase your tip weight:

http://www.aftershockarchery.com/booster.aspx?product=6

RE: Slowing your hunting arrow down?
 

Why not go with a 125gr head as well to get more weight up front?

RE: Slowing your hunting arrow down?
 

Because 125 grains broadhead selection is very limited.

RE: Slowing your hunting arrow down?
 

Ok somebody needs to explain FOC to me.:eek:

RE: Slowing your hunting arrow down?
 

No need to look farther then Striker Magnums;)

RE: Slowing your hunting arrow down?
 

GregH, funny you mention it..but that was the ONE thing I liked most about going heavier in the arrow setup...my pins spaced out. lol

RE: Slowing your hunting arrow down?
 

Thanks Bruce!!!! I shot them an email to see if they will fit an A/C/C. Do you know if they will? I am assuming they will but wanted to be sure. Thanks again!

RE: Slowing your hunting arrow down?
 

I shoot them, and they will fit ANY arrow...they screw in just the same as a BH would, then the BH screws into it.

Now, the outer diameter might not match up perfectly with the arrow shaft, but this wont effect flight, penetration, or anything.

RE: Slowing your hunting arrow down?
 

I went with the PSE Black Mamba arrow. It'll do the trick as far as getting me to the desired weight....and the durability is there, obviously. Plenty of spine for my setup, too.

Should have them built and ready to test by next Wed.

RE: Slowing your hunting arrow down?
 

Jeff I have never not seen where my arrow hit;)

Welcome to the good side of the force:D

RE: Slowing your hunting arrow down?
 

My PSE Mojave is slow. about 228fps. I'd like to get a faster bow but I don't want to sacrifice a smooth and silent bow. I'd like to settle on about 260fps and may go back to aluminum arrows with more weight too. I've shot the General and really liked it. My DL is 29". Maybe next year. The extra speed I want is to get a flatter trajectory. I get about a 6" drop from 20-30yds. I'd like to cut that in half if possible. Gives you more margin for error if you estimate the distances wrong.

RE: Slowing your hunting arrow down?
 

Shot a8 point last night 25 yards. Complete pass through, arrow stuck in the ground and through the paddle bone on exit with 70 lbs and a 415 gr axis arrow with a 100 gr. G5 montec broadhead. I getting 100 % pass through with this set up. I'm shooting 280 fps and the bow is supper quit. Check out my pictures of the hit and story
http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=3168391

RE: Slowing your hunting arrow down?
 

Are you being serious?

RE: Slowing your hunting arrow down?
 

I don't understand the lack of pass thru shots, unless the shots were quartering away and the off side shoulder was consistentlyhit or a large diameter mechanical was being used.

I've killed 22 deer; 16 with mechanicals and 6 with fixed heads.
About 19 out of 22 times the arrow weight was under 400 grains.
I've killed several deer (9) with 316 - 345 gr. arrows.
The others were killed with 345-375 grain arrows.
Arrows had about 58-67# of KE, with a typical KE of 60# momentum of .42
I've gotten a pass through 19 out of 22 times.
The 3 times I did not get a pass thru: once I hit spine and twice I used a 2'' diameter mechanical.

RE: Slowing your hunting arrow down?
 

ocd...

I won't say I "prefer" a quartering away shot, but...given the chance (at close range) I'll take that in a heartbeat. I'd say most of the shots I cite WERE quartering away. And ALL were shot (for the numbers cited) with the Rage 2-blade.

My new arrow will be built by Wednesday. I'll get my bow tuned and sighted in on Wednesday....and I'll be hunting with the new arrow setup for the remainder of the season.

Fixed blade BH....+/-520gr arrow. Hopefully pushing around 250fps.

I'll report back results....if I'm lucky enough to get a shot on a deer.

RE: Slowing your hunting arrow down?
 

Jeff, I'm likely going down the same path as you next season.

My set up will be:
Bowtech allegiance
28"
62 lbs
27" Goldtip CAA 400
100 grain insert/100grain broadhead 457 total grains
19.83% FOC

Might go with a 125 gr. broadhead but it shows my spine getting a little too weak with my current arrow. Switching over to grizztricks. Should be a devastating combo.

RE: Slowing your hunting arrow down?
 

MO ....I have the new 100gr muzzy inserts, 4" QS vanes, 6" reflective wraps in a box, here, now.

My arrows should be here, Tuesday. I've got PLENTY of spine to push this arrow...and I'm excited as to how it may work out. Like I said....hopefully I'll get another opportunity at a deer to test them out. If I do....I'll report my results. I'm betting a full pass-thru.;)

RE: Slowing your hunting arrow down?
 

I guess I don't under stand thispost too im ocd. I have shot around 400 gr. and 100 gr.broadheads for years and have shot game quartering away and through the paddle bone. I shot down on one and hitabout the last rig out and the arrow came out under his neck and was stuck in the ground. Maybe it's because I shoot supper tuned. tight grouping,70 lb bows and heads like the thunderhead and now the G5 montes, But I blow through every thing deer up to elk like they were a card broad box, I havepassed through two bull one at about 25 yards and one at 40 yards. I'll will say because I can't remember not passing through one so, 98 % of the time. The only time I can remember not is when I try ed some mechanical heads and when I shot aluminums and thats been a lot of years ago. I shot a buck this year at 25 yards and was a little to far forward just missed the paddle bone going in and right through the middle of it low going out and the arrow past through like he was made of card broad and sticking in the ground about 6 inch's. Maybe if I were shooting 50 lb bow areI hada real noisy bow. All my bows have be supper quit shooting, have good speed and put out a lots of KE.:eek:

Good luck on every thing just my opinion

RE: Slowing your hunting arrow down?
 

That really is a great point. I am currently looking for a new bow this year. Speed was my #1quality...not sure now...