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RE: The Kill - Revisited .......
ORIGINAL: PatrickMc Tony, I think you and I are on the same page here. You take an animal to eat it, as do it. You don't do it maliciously, nor do I. I don't have a problem with taking the life of an animal in order to eat it. My beef is with the people who kill an animal for the sake of killing something and then try to pass themselves off as hunters. I consider myself a hunter, as I consider you a fellow hunter. I believe that you hunt for the meat and the gratification of the experience. Taking pride in an accomplishment of what was taken is just a bonus, I don't mean that you can't celebrate or enjoy your successes. I know in all actuality we do kill every animal we take, but I just think that us real hunters kill an animal to harvest the meat, not just kill to kill. I have read a lot of your posts Tony and I think you have a lot of good insight, I don't mean to offend you in any way. As for the politically correct thing...working for government will do that to you. lol. |
RE: The Kill - Revisited .......
You are dead wrong on that. I have taken out BOTH shoulders on a buck with a Muzzy.Dropped him on his nose. I have gone through the shoulder on others for a kill. I have abuddy that hasblown through shoulders with a fixed blade also.All this on large midwestern deer.Shoot at enough deer and someday it is going to happen. When it does, I would take a smaller fixed blade over any large mechanical EVERY time. I have tried both. Any head through the lungs will kill. Not every head on marginal hits will.IF you ever shoot as many deer as some on this board have, you will stop the snide comments about shot placement, because it will happen to you too. I've only killed 16 with my bow.....and yeah...I've had a few bad hits, too. But I've never hit a bone with a mechanical that a fixed BH would have "blown through". Not once. In fact....the only bone I've hit (other than a rib) is eitherthat rib bone or an off-side leg. I've spinedtwo, also.....and there isn't a BH out there to go through a deer's spine. In the case of the ribs....."butter". In the case of the off side leg bone.....again....NO BH is gonna penetrate hard bone. Not one. Nothing "snide" about my comments. It's a known fact. Hit a bone.....and you're not going to penetrate too far. Hit a bone....and you've made a bad shot. And yeah....I've had my share of bad shots. Luckily.....most have worked out, though. |
RE: The Kill - Revisited .......
Absolutely no offence taken ..... and your right...we feel the same way...I am just a little more "in your face" ...being a preacher can do that to you Seriously though, I think the killing part of hunting gets way too much attention. I like the hunt as much or more, than the kill. The kill has to be done for the meat.(Never could eat horns, give me gas) The hunt is done for the game of it all. That said, "Rage Sucks".[:'(] Where are the broadhead ballistic penetration tests when you need 'em? Right Jeffro?:D LT |
RE: The Kill - Revisited .......
ORIGINAL: GMMAT You are dead wrong on that. I have taken out BOTH shoulders on a buck with a Muzzy.Dropped him on his nose. I have gone through the shoulder on others for a kill. I have abuddy that hasblown through shoulders with a fixed blade also.All this on large midwestern deer.Shoot at enough deer and someday it is going to happen. When it does, I would take a smaller fixed blade over any large mechanical EVERY time. I have tried both. Any head through the lungs will kill. Not every head on marginal hits will.IF you ever shoot as many deer as some on this board have, you will stop the snide comments about shot placement, because it will happen to you too. I've only killed 16 with my bow.....and yeah...I've had a few bad hits, too. But I've never hit a bone with a mechanical that a fixed BH would have "blown through". Not once. In fact....the only bone I've hit (other than a rib) is eitherthat rib bone or an off-side leg. I've spinedtwo, also.....and there isn't a BH out there to go through a deer's spine. In the case of the ribs....."butter". In the case of the off side leg bone.....again....NO BH is gonna penetrate hard bone. Not one. Nothing "snide" about my comments. It's a known fact. Hit a bone.....and you're not going to penetrate too far. Hit a bone....and you've made a bad shot. And yeah....I've had my share of bad shots. Luckily.....most have worked out, though. |
RE: The Kill - Revisited .......
Out of your setup......with your current BH.....would you expect anything different?
If I shot 250fps .....I wouldn't shoot the head I do. If I wasn't pushing 70+Fp's/KE I wouldn't shoot it. Rob I'm not disputing the bear's leg was broken. But your BH blew through it? interesting. I broke my leg by jumping on it wrong. Any chance your BH hit the bone and the bear did the rest of the damage when he bolted? How would one ever know? |
RE: The Kill - Revisited .......
ORIGINAL: TEmbry if it doesnthave anythingto do with the killing, then why take a weapon in the first place?  rather than this one...  |
RE: The Kill - Revisited .......
ORIGINAL: LouisianaTomkat Absolutely no offence taken ..... and your right...we feel the same way...I am just a little more "in your face" ...being a preacher can do that to you Seriously though, I think the killing part of hunting gets way too much attention. I like the hunt as much or more, than the kill. The kill has to be done for the meat.(Never could eat horns, give me gas) The hunt is done for the game of it all. |
RE: The Kill - Revisited .......
Me personnally, I love to hear the TWACK. It's just a comforting feeling that comes over me when I hear TWACK. All is well in the universe. Survey your terrain and the scene and just replay it in your head.... TWACK>>> TWACK..... TWACK. Nothing like it.:D I can't get all wrapped up in the hype of this broadhead or that broadhead. There are so many that do the job. And all of them say TWACK.
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RE: The Kill - Revisited .......
ORIGINAL: RackLuster ORIGINAL: GMMAT I don't admit it. [:-] I've used rage broadheads the last two years and i am not impressed. yes, they make a huge entrance hole but it does you no good when the deer is hit high and there's no exit hole. I much prefer a broadhead that will blast through the bone (and come out the other side). It happened to me last night. i hit a doe high in the shoulder with muzzy 2 blade. not a good shot, but my penetration was absolutely, flat out terrible. I've had muzzy's blow through shoulders at 170 fps, now i shoot 270 fps and I can't? When that deer was running away I thought the arrow was going to fall out, that's how little of it penetrated. i'm going back to muzzy. I had a hard time recovering 2 of the 3 deer i've shot with rage. blaming me and saying i need to practice more - is a cop out. marginal shots happen to the best of us. if they haven't happened to someone yet, then they haven't hunted long enough. i believe 100% that if i was using my old muzzy broadhead the arrow would have penetrated through the bone and out the other side of the deer. creating a much better blood trail then the rage did. i don't mean to cause an argument. I'm simply saying that it's not all about the size of the entrance hole for me. cripes - the last thing i want to do is start another rage argument. that's a dead horse that needs to be left alone :D |
RE: The Kill - Revisited .......
ORIGINAL: TEmbry ORIGINAL: TEmbry if it doesnthave anythingto do with the killing, then why take a weapon in the first place? rather than this one...
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RE: The Kill - Revisited .......
ORIGINAL: PreacherTony ORIGINAL: TEmbry ORIGINAL: TEmbry if it doesnthave anythingto do with the killing, then why take a weapon in the first place? rather than this one...
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RE: The Kill - Revisited .......
ORIGINAL: GMMAT Out of your setup......with your current BH.....would you expect anything different? If I shot 250fps .....I wouldn't shoot the head I do. If I wasn't pushing 70+Fp's/KE I wouldn't shoot it. Rob I'm not disputing the bear's leg was broken. But your BH blew through it? interesting. I broke my leg by jumping on it wrong. Any chance your BH hit the bone and the bear did the rest of the damage when he bolted? How would one ever know? I know exactly because there was a perfect 3 blade Muzzy hole through the leg, the broadhead stopped under the hide of the rear ham where it shattered on the rock the bear was laying against. Doesn't matter to me if the Muzzy broke it or the bear broke it because it still stands true that the broadhead went through it solid dead center. (We deboned the meat and I purposely showed this to the outfitter as he was not a fan of bows). I should have kept the bone as a keep sake. |
RE: The Kill - Revisited .......
I should have kept the bone as a keep sake. |
RE: The Kill - Revisited .......
ORIGINAL: GMMAT Out of your setup......with your current BH.....would you expect anything different? If I shot 250fps .....I wouldn't shoot the head I do. If I wasn't pushing 70+Fp's/KE I wouldn't shoot it. Rob I'm not disputing the bear's leg was broken. But your BH blew through it? interesting. I broke my leg by jumping on it wrong. Any chance your BH hit the bone and the bear did the rest of the damage when he bolted? How would one ever know? I'm shooting roughly the same KE today as I did then. |
RE: The Kill - Revisited .......
ORIGINAL: GMMAT I should have kept the bone as a keep sake. |
RE: The Kill - Revisited .......
Funny how certain folks can post results of broadheads when they have never had the experience.:D(ie., will never penetrate hard bone.) I shot a slick trickinto a 1/8" thick piece of channel iron. (60lbs/350 grain arrow at 20 yds)Didn't get a pass thru, but impressive nevertheless. Penetrated about 1/2 inch.I believe a living being's bone is softer than steel. Wouldn't you agree?
LT |
RE: The Kill - Revisited .......
I know as I know your are doubting it but it is what it is but if Matt would have posted it, it'd probably be gospel. ;) [8D] |
RE: The Kill - Revisited .......
ORIGINAL: GMMAT I know as I know your are doubting it but it is what it is but if Matt would have posted it, it'd probably be gospel. ;) [8D] |
RE: The Kill - Revisited .......
ORIGINAL: Rob/PA Bowyer I know exactly because there was a perfect 3 blade Muzzy hole through the leg, the broadhead stopped under the hide of the rear ham where it shattered on the rock the bear was laying against. Doesn't matter to me if the Muzzy broke it or the bear broke it because it still stands true that the broadhead went through it solid dead center. (We deboned the meat and I purposely showed this to the outfitter as he was not a fan of bows). I should have kept the bone as a keep sake. |
RE: The Kill - Revisited .......
ORIGINAL: Schultzy ORIGINAL: Rob/PA Bowyer I know exactly because there was a perfect 3 blade Muzzy hole through the leg, the broadhead stopped under the hide of the rear ham where it shattered on the rock the bear was laying against. Doesn't matter to me if the Muzzy broke it or the bear broke it because it still stands true that the broadhead went through it solid dead center. (We deboned the meat and I purposely showed this to the outfitter as he was not a fan of bows). I should have kept the bone as a keep sake. |
RE: The Kill - Revisited .......
I didn't dispute you, Rob. I asked if your current setup would go through the same bone.
The moment I start basing my BH choice on my poor shots......and start touting my BH for it's poor shot capabilites......is a sad day. Ditto the day I start blaming my BH for MY ineptness. If I was gonna do that (pick a BH based on its poor shot capabilities).....I'd just shoot at anything "brown".....pick my head based on the worst case scenario......and hope for the best. I've killed enough deer, now....to have seen perfect hits with both.....and not so perfect hits with both (mech's and fixed blade BH's). I picked my current BH based on my past experiences with both. When I heara hunter exclaim he's against mechanicals....because they won't blow through bone like his fixed blades......let's just say my radar bleeps. |
RE: The Kill - Revisited .......
i went to cabelas tonight and picked up some good ole muzzy 100 grain 3 blade heads. by the way, i've blasted through front legs too. on more occasions then i should probably admit.
rob - i hope there's no difference in them. i'll have to look through my collection. i have 90 grain, 115 grain, 125 grain, 100 grain (3 and 4 blade)...some are 12 years old. |
RE: The Kill - Revisited .......
Honestly Jeff I doubt like I said, that Snypers would have blown through that bone like that Muzzy did but I still use Snypers. Like I said too, that bear would have been just as dead and there is no reason why a broadhead needs to go through a rear femur. In my case, it's the way the bear was laying. Deer don't lay the same way as their joints don't bend the same as bears which is the same as ours.
If someone is hitting solid bone in a deer, it's poor shot placement. Judging broadheads like Rage or Snypers or others for that matter for perhaps not having that capability is hogwash. Hitting solid bone via the front leg, a person is too high, too low or too far forward or shooting at a poor shot angle and it's likely no broadhead would make that kill.  I also believe that no broadhead will make it through the spine but all of them will drop the deer by busting the spine. All I said is I've seen a broadhead blow through a solid bone. BUT that particular outcome was irrelevant, the bear was dead regardless had the broadhead stopped at the bone or gone through it like was the case. :D But there I go hijacking PT's thread. [8D] |
RE: The Kill - Revisited .......
That's a kick ass graphic!:D
And clearly illustrates what you just said about evaluating a broadhead for bone crushing as hogwash. There is one small obstacle that is bone that would need 'Smashed" and its the shoulder blade ..........if you're hitting that you're taking a shot you probably shouldn't be and the percentage of body mass that that single bone covers and the amount of vitals it covers is so small compared to the rest of the animal that like I always say.........I'll take the most damage I can inflict with the set up I am using. Bone be damned. It means nothing to me. I've shot going on 50 deer in my life and NOT ONE in the shoulder blade. Not a single one..........but I sure have hit a few in the liver, liver one lung etc through the natural movement of an animal. You aim at the vitals, and they don't typically move BACKWARDS> ;) |
RE: The Kill - Revisited .......
That's a kick ass graphic! http://www.fallingpixel.com/product.php/5484     And many more. :D |
RE: The Kill - Revisited .......
Oh that's Way killer![:-]
Paste those pictures into your recovery thread as reference!!! |
RE: The Kill - Revisited .......
The only thing I think they have a bit wrong is the height of the esopahgus, windpipe and the major vessels alongside (corotid artery and jugular vein) I think these ride lower as they enter the body.
I've taken out windpipes from a deer's neck and they dont' sit that deep..........and I've seen some of Frank's patented low neck shots that hit that artery and they aren't where they show in the graphic. LOL :D |
RE: The Kill - Revisited .......
ORIGINAL: Matt / PA Oh that's Way killer![:-] Paste those pictures into your recovery thread as reference!!! |
RE: The Kill - Revisited .......
ORIGINAL: Matt / PA The only thing I think they have a bit wrong is the height of the esopahgus, windpipe and the major vessels alongside (corotid artery and jugular vein) I think these ride lower as they enter the body. I've taken out windpipes from a deer's neck and they dont' sit that deep..........and I've seen some of Frank's patented low neck shots that hit that artery and they aren't where they show in the graphic. LOL :D Here's another one I found and added.  And this one, shows the more realistic esophagus.  |
RE: The Kill - Revisited .......
ORIGINAL: Rob/PA Bowyer ORIGINAL: Schultzy ORIGINAL: Rob/PA Bowyer I know exactly because there was a perfect 3 blade Muzzy hole through the leg, the broadhead stopped under the hide of the rear ham where it shattered on the rock the bear was laying against. Doesn't matter to me if the Muzzy broke it or the bear broke it because it still stands true that the broadhead went through it solid dead center. (We deboned the meat and I purposely showed this to the outfitter as he was not a fan of bows). I should have kept the bone as a keep sake. |
RE: The Kill - Revisited .......
ORIGINAL: Rob/PA Bowyer ORIGINAL: Matt / PA The only thing I think they have a bit wrong is the height of the esopahgus, windpipe and the major vessels alongside (corotid artery and jugular vein) I think these ride lower as they enter the body. I've taken out windpipes from a deer's neck and they dont' sit that deep..........and I've seen some of Frank's patented low neck shots that hit that artery and they aren't where they show in the graphic. LOL :D Here's another one I found and added. And this one, shows the more realistic esophagus.
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RE: The Kill - Revisited .......
There is one small obstacle that is bone that would need 'Smashed" and its the shoulder blade ..........if you're hitting that you're taking a shot you probably shouldn't be and the percentage of body mass that that single bone covers and the amount of vitals it covers is so small compared to the rest of the animal In saying what I said I do get your point.;) |
RE: The Kill - Revisited .......
I think we totally hijacked this thread.:D
That's why quartered slightly away is the desirable shot.  |
RE: The Kill - Revisited .......
What the hell WAS this thread about anyway! LOL :D
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RE: The Kill - Revisited .......
ORIGINAL: GMMAT The moment I start basing my BH choice on my poor shots......and start touting my BH for it's poor shot capabilites......is a sad day. Ditto the day I start blaming my BH for MY ineptness. call it what you want but do you mind keeping the personal attacks to a minimum? please. you've managed to refer to me as inept and tell me i have to practice more all in the same day. Just for expressing my opinion and personal preference on a broadhead. lighten up! everyone has made marginal shots. i owned up about that. i disagreed with you on several things, yet made no personal attacks. by the way, i practice as much as i physically can, trust me. |
RE: The Kill - Revisited .......
call it what you want but do you mind keeping the personal attacks to a minimum? please. you've managed to refer to me as inept and tell me i have to practice more all in the same day. Just for expressing my opinion and personal preference on a broadhead. lighten up! everyone has made marginal shots. i owned up about that. i disagreed with you on several things, yet made no personal attacks. You read what I post and make up anything you want. I can't stop you from doing that.;) |
RE: The Kill - Revisited .......
ORIGINAL: GMMAT I don't admit it. [:-] I've used rage broadheads the last two years and i am not impressed. yes, they make a huge entrance hole but it does you no good when the deer is hit high and there's no exit hole. I much prefer a broadhead that will blast through the bone (and come out the other side). It happened to me last night. i hit a doe high in the shoulder with muzzy 2 blade. not a good shot, but my penetration was absolutely, flat out terrible. I've had muzzy's blow through shoulders at 170 fps, now i shoot 270 fps and I can't? When that deer was running away I thought the arrow was going to fall out, that's how little of it penetrated. i'm going back to muzzy. I had a hard time recovering 2 of the 3 deer i've shot with rage. ...you're going to get the last word in aren't you? ;) |
RE: The Kill - Revisited .......
boy this post got sour quick...seems to have taken a spin back for the better....
for a couple pages, i thought we would have to cancel the bow contest and make it a PICTURE contest...if your buck isnt alive and well with a clear paintball hit within the 8 ring or better, its invalid ;) :D Jeff, since you were on the topic, did you happen to read over the Ashby studies?? just curious...i dont care one way or another.... i might actually save some bones next time i come across some and shoot them... not to add fire to things...but a mechanicals blades will shear off long before a well built fixed blade heads will...and if your shooting the right head, i think you stand a much better chance of getting through SOME heavier bones...with the RIGHT bow and arrow setup. noone WANTS to hit heavy bone...but it CAN happen...to me, it only makes sense to shoot a bow and arrow and broadhead setup that DOES stand a better chance to get through...not arguing with you or your broadheads...just my feelings on the subject...dead is dead when hit through the vitals....2+" hole...10" hole...4 blade hole, 2 blade hole, 3 blade hole...1" hole...a hole cut through the vitals is going to put game down in a short distance... now i gotta remember to keep my eye out for large bones laying around....got 3 blade muzzys, think i got some RM jacknife mechanicals, and Snypers...plus some other 100gr fixed heads...heck, if i look hard enough i can find some skulls, shoulders, legs, hips etc....im REALLY interested in doing it actually....might put it off till next year when i am resetup though...doubt i do it now...i might start bone collecting now though! lol.... edit...i honestly skipped the last 2 or 3 pages...didnt see you guys had a pretty good conversation about the subject going!!! |
RE: The Kill - Revisited .......
ORIGINAL: LouisianaTomkat I believe a living being's bone is softer than steel. Wouldn't you agree? LT  ORIGINAL: Rob/PA Bowyer I think we totally hijacked this thread.:D That's why quartered slightly away is the desirable shot. |
RE: The Kill - Revisited .......
HAHA Tony when i clicked on the "attachment" link it said SUPERTONY! I like the name choice:D
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