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RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
ORIGINAL: GMMAT If you can only kill certain bucks, that lets"more" bucks live longer to spread desireable genes and help keep a closer buck to doe ratio. |
RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
ORIGINAL: early in ORIGINAL: GMMAT If you can only kill certain bucks, that lets"more" bucks live longer to spread desireable genes and help keep a closer buck to doe ratio. |
RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
Preach
No 1.5 deer out smarts a hunter:D They just get lucky;) The other factor I like about AR's and it has been proven in PA is safty. Hunter's shooting hunters is down. One most check before trigger is pulled. I think OBR helps in the same way. |
RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
ORIGINAL: Germ Preach No 1.5 deer out smarts a hunter:D They just get lucky;) Early made a statement about AR's allowing the smarter bucks to make it longer, thus improving the quality of the herd ...... that is what I was responding to ..... makes no sense top me I think OBR helps in the same way. |
RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
One Buck Rule
I think after a 1.5 makes in through a season he's a little smarter. Even if not shot at he learns a thing or two;) I do not think AR's make any deer smarter[8D] |
RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
ORIGINAL: PreacherTony ORIGINAL: early in ORIGINAL: GMMAT If you can only kill certain bucks, that lets"more" bucks live longer to spread desireable genes and help keep a closer buck to doe ratio. |
RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
So its OK to tell a guy that he CAN’T shoot ANY buck, until he shoots a doe. BUT it’s NOT OK to tell him that he CAN’T shoot a buck with X number of points. Makes perfect sense. [&:] |
RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
Jim:
You have 3 times the hunters we have......but we have damn near the same amount of deer. Change the bag limits.....and bring 'em on. We need some culling to occur. EI: Smarts/experience!They live longer and pass on these traits through their genes.;) That's why I asked you (and will, again) to explain your point. |
RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
ORIGINAL: GMMAT So its OK to tell a guy that he CAN’T shoot ANY buck, until he shoots a doe. BUT it’s NOT OK to tell him that he CAN’T shoot a buck with X number of points. Makes perfect sense. [&:] |
RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
Check post 165
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RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
To argue that its ok sometimes to tell people what they can/cannot shoot, but other times its not ok is ridiculous. I suppose its ony ok as long as you agree;)
1.5 year old bucks vary too much to know who will wind up being top dog as a mature buck. Letting them live longer helps to sort out the best genes on thier own, as opposed to randomly distributing them as 1.5's. Living longer in and of itself, does absolutely nothing regarding passing on "smart" genes. But getting them past that first year when they are the dumbest, can help them live a 3rd & 4th season even though they are no longer getting free passes. Jeff, My attempt to exlain what you are askingEI is this: As 1.5's you can't tell at all what a bucks genetic make up will eventually turn out to be. So a bigger at the time buck, may breed over one who's smaller, but carries better genes. Or you can just say that all 1.5's will breed, rather than letting them get older and sorted out such that the biggest stringest bucks breed. And I've read studies, where having more mature bucks in the herd, supresses young bucks from breeding, hence they do not expend energy to do so, and in turn can grow and maximize thier potential sooner in life. ie you end up with a healthier herd. |
RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
Check post 165 That 3.5 yr old buck's genes don't get "no smarter";)if they stay in his loins for 2 more years. He has the SAME genetic composition as a 1.5yr old as he will have as a 3.5 yr old. |
RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
That 3.5 yr old buck's genes don't get "no smarter";)if they stay in his loins for 2 more years. He has the SAME genetic composition as a 1.5yr old as he will have as a 3.5 yr old. |
RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
ORIGINAL: GMMAT Check post 165 That 3.5 yr old buck's genes don't get "no smarter";)if they stay in his loins for 2 more years. He has the SAME genetic composition as a 1.5yr old as he will have as a 3.5 yr old. |
RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
Where did anyone say "Genes" get smarter?
I read deer is smarter[8D]From Early |
RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
ORIGINAL: early in ORIGINAL: GMMAT Check post 165 That 3.5 yr old buck's genes don't get "no smarter";)if they stay in his loins for 2 more years. He has the SAME genetic composition as a 1.5yr old as he will have as a 3.5 yr old. |
RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
And I've read studies, where having more mature bucks in the herd, supresses young bucks from breeding, hence they do not expend energy to do so, and in turn can grow and maximize thier potential sooner in life. ie you end up with a healthier herd. Give me a team of stud freshmen baseball players......and pit them against a group of mediocre juniors and seniors....and Ill take my chances with the youngsters. You're guaranteeing (by instituting AR's....in a LOT of instances) that the inferior bucks WILLlive to see another year.....when maybe they aren't the best breeding stock you have. What could be better than "natural selection".....and letting the TRUE cream of the crop rise? Will you kill some of these potential studs by NOT having AR's? Yep. Will as many inferior bucks slip through the cracks (by virtue SOLELEY of what's on their heads)? Yep. They're breeding, too.;) It would seem to me.....that the bucks who elude hunters (although they risk peril, every year.....regardless of their headgear)are thegreatest examples of "natural selection". I've never seen any studies that show that a larger rack = intelligence. |
RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
At some point he'll be putting a 3 1/2 year old's genes into a doe. No? |
RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
I'm wondering (help me) how this constitutes a "healthier herd". Who's to say the genes the 3.5yr old is carrying are superior to the ones the 1.5yr old is carrying? Just because the 3.5yr old is doing a lot of breeding.....is this necessarily a "good" thing? IF you view a better cross-section of age groups as being a "healthier herd".....then I see your point. I look at it like this...... Give me a team of stud freshmen baseball players......and pit them against a group of mediocre juniors and seniors....and Ill take my chances with the youngsters. You're guaranteeing (by instituting AR's....in a LOT of instances) that the inferior bucks WILLlive to see another year.....when maybe they aren't the best breeding stock you have. What could be better than "natural selection".....and letting the TRUE cream of the crop rise? Will you kill some of these potential studs by NOT having AR's? Yep. Will as many inferior bucks slip through the cracks (by virtue SOLELEY of what's on their heads)? Yep. They're breeding, too.;) It would seem to me.....that the bucks who elude hunters (although they risk peril, every year.....regardless of their headgear)are thegreatest examples of "natural selection". I've never seen any studies that show that a larger rack = intelligence. 1. Much of whatI read says that genetic makeup/potential CANNOT be determined from 1st year racks. So you have just as much chance at killing the next booner whether you shoot a forky or a basket 8. 2. What I (my opinion only) is that, a healthier herd is one that allows the deer to grow and reach thier potential and lets THEM sort out who breeds. (to the best extent possible). 3. Bucks eluding hunters in PA have nothing to do with being the best at elduing hunters nad being the best natural selection tool, it ALL has to do with random luck. 4. The significance of small(less points) bucks living real long and dilluting down the gene pool is statistically insignificant. We are not over run with mature 4 pts like the gloom & doomers predicted. 5. No one said AR's are perfect, and I know they have thier short comings. BUT unless you can get a VAST majority of people to buy in to QDM, one of the few ways to achieve saving a few more bucks each season, is implementing an AR program |
RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
ORIGINAL: GMMAT And I've read studies, where having more mature bucks in the herd, supresses young bucks from breeding, hence they do not expend energy to do so, and in turn can grow and maximize thier potential sooner in life. ie you end up with a healthier herd. Give me a team of stud freshmen baseball players......and pit them against a group of mediocre juniors and seniors....and Ill take my chances with the youngsters. You're guaranteeing (by instituting AR's....in a LOT of instances) that the inferior bucks WILLlive to see another year.....when maybe they aren't the best breeding stock you have. What could be better than "natural selection".....and letting the TRUE cream of the crop rise? Will you kill some of these potential studs by NOT having AR's? Yep. Will as many inferior bucks slip through the cracks (by virtue SOLELEY of what's on their heads)? Yep. They're breeding, too.;) It would seem to me.....that the bucks who elude hunters (although they risk peril, every year.....regardless of their headgear)are thegreatest examples of "natural selection". I've never seen any studies that show that a larger rack = intelligence. |
RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
Rybo there it is in a nutshell
Unless some are willing to have 700+ hunters in the woods like in NY, PA, MI and other states to really see what it is like, I say stay out[8D] We kill more bucks in MI than NC kills deer[&:] We have 1.8 millon deer If I was a deer manager in these states, I would use OBR or an AR. In some places just to piss a few more people off, I would make them a Spread Restriction[8D] |
RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
1. Much of whatI read says that genetic makeup/potential CANNOT be determined from 1st year racks. So you have just as much chance at killing the next booner whether you shoot a forky or a basket 8. 2. What I (my opinion only) is that, a healthier herd is one that allows the deer to grow and reach thier potential and lets THEM sort out who breeds. (to the best extent possible). To me....you're kinda looking at this from an "Affirmative Action" POV.;) 3. Bucks eluding hunters in PA have nothing to do with being the best at elduing hunters nad being the best natural selection tool, it ALL has to do with random luck. 4. The significance of small(less points) bucks living real long and dilluting down the gene pool is statistically insignificant. We are not over run with mature 4 pts like the gloom & doomers predicted. 5. No one said AR's are perfect, and I know they have thier short comings. BUT unless you can get a VAST majority of people to buy in to QDM, one of the few ways to achieve saving a few more bucks each season, is implementing an AR program Great post there, Ryan.;) We kill more bucks in MI than NC kills deer[&:] We have 1.8 millon deer Really? How many bucks did you kill, last year? (Michigan) |
RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
With all this talk about genetics, how come no one mentions the doe? She carries HALF the dna, regardless of how you cut it. So you could have great genes from one and not the other, where are you gonna get? You can practice QDM all you want and AR but if you don't have the genes, which are carried by both the breeding pair, you aren't gonna get what you all are envisioning. The only thing AR do is try and limit the age of harvested deer, giving you more time to see what kind of genes you have. But this is guestimating at best. Recent studies have shown that the majority of doe are bred by young deer, not the old mature deer that we used to think. In fact this study showed that some does would not breed to the older study deer and would in fact only allow the younger deer to breed with them. Actually witnessed it on a Drury show, where they hinted at this study.
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RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
ORIGINAL: nctaxi With all this talk about genetics, how come no one mentions the doe? She carries HALF the dna, regardless of how you cut it. So you could have great genes from one and not the other, where are you gonna get? You can practice QDM all you want and AR but if you don't have the genes, which are carried by both the breeding pair, you aren't gonna get what you all are envisioning. The only thing AR do is try and limit the age of harvested deer, giving you more time to see what kind of genes you have. But this is guestimating at best. Recent studies have shown that the majority of doe are bred by young deer, not the old mature deer that we used to think. In fact this study showed that some does would not breed to the older study deer and would in fact only allow the younger deer to breed with them. Actually witnessed it on a Drury show, where they hinted at this study. Jeff we killed around 150,000 bucks during MI firearm season, not counting ML or archery[:-] Me I did not kill any bucks, just does. None came buy that were big enough or limping[:-] Total 2007 450,000 deer With about a 65% bucks 35% does |
RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
With all this talk about genetics, how come no one mentions the doe? She carries HALF the dna, regardless of how you cut it. So you could have great genes from one and not the other, where are you gonna get? I always thought that was very interesting. Don't you? |
RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
With all this talk about genetics, how come no one mentions the doe? One half of a deer's genetics comes from the doe. I think this fact is oft overlooked. And Duke corrected me. |
RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
ORIGINAL: nctaxi With all this talk about genetics, how come no one mentions the doe? |
RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
ORIGINAL: PreacherTony ORIGINAL: nctaxi With all this talk about genetics, how come no one mentions the doe? I have to believe that AR's are more to do with addressing age in these cases. Larger antlers = older bucks (usually). |
RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
ORIGINAL: PreacherTony ORIGINAL: nctaxi With all this talk about genetics, how come no one mentions the doe? A point often left out. It truly is all about the antlers;) |
RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
Does nobody think the mental make up (smarter)of a given buck over time/ARis spread through his genesto new generations? It does with humans over generations because of education, why wouldn't it with deer?
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RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
ORIGINAL: GregH ORIGINAL: PreacherTony ORIGINAL: nctaxi With all this talk about genetics, how come no one mentions the doe? I have to believe that AR's are more to do with addressing age in these cases. Larger antlers = older bucks (usually). I'll be honest ... I am for them for bigger racks ..... it'll makea difference ..... a huge one? I dunno .... If the spikers and the forks are not fair game anymore, OR you have to use your doe tag ........ there's a ? ......does a fork horn become a doe for the purpose of filling your tag out? Anyway, ... I digress ..... |
RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
ORIGINAL: early in Does nobody think the mental make up (smarter)of a given buck over time/ARis spread through his genesto new generations? It does with humans over generations because of education, why wouldn't it with deer? |
RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
Hey we made it to 20:D
Preach is this your first one? AR's Rock[8D] |
RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
I think I’ve figured out one last way to explain it.
You are hung up on EI’s older deer with superior genetics, I have never once even remotely alluded to that. Take a group of 50 bucks, half with “good” genes, half with “bad” genes. As 1.5’s you don’t know which is which, the DEER don’t even know who has the better genes. You have a 50/50 chance of a buck passing bad genes. Now let them grow and mature. At 4.5 years old, there is going to be a larger disparity between the “good” gened bucks and the “bad” gened bucks. When push comes to shove (literally) for breeding rights, the good gene bucks will do the lion’s share of the gene passing. So you’ve improved your odds of passing good genes. Notice no where in my example did I mention inches of antler or “smart” genes. Good genes & bad genes criteria is left SOLELY to the deer and natural selection. I know the bucks with the biggest inches of antler aren’t necessarily the most dominant and that a bunch of other factors come into play. All I am advocating as that the bucks are allowed to grow up and figure that out for themselves. It’s a win-win. The deer get to do their thing as evolution intended and hunters get to see a few more big mature bucks (hopefully) One last disclaimer…… I know I spent all this time arguing and making a case for passing on the best genes possible for the deer, but I fully realize a wild free ranging herd’s genes can’t really be affected to any significant degree…AND I also (at least where I live) feel that in all but the rarest of occurrences, even a “bad” gene buck, is going to be a whopper if left to mature. |
RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
Buck walks under your stand as a 1.5 yr old.....2 points on each side.....but a respectable body. Mills around for 10 minutes......and feeds off. You could have killed him with your pocket knife. He sure is dumb.
FF one year....same tree.....same buck walks under your stand and beds down for 20 minutes. He's sportin 3 to a side, now......but the AR's say he's off limits as a 2.5yr old in your zone. Nevertheless.....he's cagey. FF another year.....same tree.....same buck.....and he's got 4 on both sides, now, as a 3.5 yr old. He's standing underneath you again. Youre witnessing nothing short of a miracle. This guy's the one you want in your gene pool.....yet he's only fell short of suicide by not helping you sight in your bowand by not applying the 10-ring sticker, provided. Hopefully it's opening day....and he hasn't spread the love, yet. He is a true patriarch of the forest. Any deer or hunters' feelings hurt in the aforementioned depiction is strictly coincidental....and was not intended. (I was poking fun;)) In reality....speaking for PA.....Rybo's #3 point back there spelled out the NEED for AR's in HIS STATE, to me. It was a STRONG point.;) |
RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
ORIGINAL: Germ Hey we made it to 20:D Preach is this your first one? AR's Rock[8D] BTW .... you made it to 10,000!       |
RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
No I don't agree at some levels. I think that deer are smarter from experience and from learning from older deer. How many guys have been busted by an old doe, and her teaching her fawns to look up? If you raise a fawn to adulthood, it doesn't know any different. It has to be taught to some extent. You could take the child of the 2 smartest people in the world and stick it on a deserted island with the 2 biggest idiots in the world and you are gonna end up with a dumb kid with good genetics.
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RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
Does nobody think the mental make up (smarter)of a given buck over time/ARis spread through his genesto new generations? It does with humans over generations because of education, why wouldn't it with deer? |
RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
ORIGINAL: rybohunter I think I’ve figured out one last way to explain it. You are hung up on EI’s older deer with superior genetics, I have never once even remotely alluded to that. Take a group of 50 bucks, half with “good” genes, half with “bad” genes. As 1.5’s you don’t know which is which, the DEER don’t even know who has the better genes. You have a 50/50 chance of a buck passing bad genes. Now let them grow and mature. At 4.5 years old, there is going to be a larger disparity between the “good” gened bucks and the “bad” gened bucks. When push comes to shove (literally) for breeding rights, the good gene bucks will do the lion’s share of the gene passing. So you’ve improved your odds of passing good genes. Notice no where in my example did I mention inches of antler or “smart” genes. Good genes & bad genes criteria is left SOLELY to the deer and natural selection. I know the bucks with the biggest inches of antler aren’t necessarily the most dominant and that a bunch of other factors come into play. All I am advocating as that the bucks are allowed to grow up and figure that out for themselves. It’s a win-win. The deer get to do their thing as evolution intended and hunters get to see a few more big mature bucks (hopefully) One last disclaimer…… I know I spent all this time arguing and making a case for passing on the best genes possible for the deer, but I fully realize a wild free ranging herd’s genes can’t really be affected to any significant degree…AND I also (at least where I live) feel that in all but the rarest of occurrences, even a “bad” gene buck, is going to be a whopper if left to mature. |
RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
ORIGINAL: nctaxi No I don't agree at some levels. I think that deer are smarter from experience and from learning from older deer. How many guys have been busted by an old doe, and her teaching her fawns to look up? If you raise a fawn to adulthood, it doesn't know any different. It has to be taught to some extent. You could take the child of the 2 smartest people in the world and stick it on a deserted island with the 2 biggest idiots in the world and you are gonna end up with a dumb kid with good genetics. |
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