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RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
ORIGINAL: rybohunter Proper age structure for the way a deer herd is meant to me made up. (numbers just guessed, may not be exactly correct) Which seems more healthy to you? 50% 1.5's 30% 2.5's 10% 3.5's 10% 4.5+ 85% 1.5's 10% 2.5's 5% 3.5+ |
RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
ORIGINAL: rybohunter I'm sure the age structure of the does is just fine, since we don't attpempt to shoot 80% of the existing does each season. |
RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
I loathe them in Pennsylvania. I never have been, nor never will be hung up on antler size. PA has had point restrictions for several years. Upon initial discussion, I honestly didn't think they would affect my own hunting and almost didn't care one way or the other if the regulation was passed. Now, I can see that I was wrong. During the same period as the antler restriction inaugauration, Pennsylvania's game commission went on a crusade to reduce the deer population, under the pretense of increasing the average antler size. Funny now, how I don't see the bigger bucks, let alone the number of deer that I once did. (Formerly, if I so much as bumped a deer heading in or coming out in the dark I considered myself lucky. I neverdid see the "herds" of deerthat the game commission claimed. Last season, I went 15 days straight without ANY encounter or sighting to even know whitetails still existed.) The bucks that I do see are smaller than before, and I feel like such an @ss staring at one throught binoculars at 5 or 10 yds trying to count their points and make sure they are all an inch long. I don't care what it is. After 20 yrs of hunting, I'd still be thrilled to shoot it! But, I abide them, and ifI can't be certain, I let them walk, albeit shaking my head in disgust the entire time...
I don't see what theso called "QDM" buzzis about. WHAT is the point of shooting a deer with large antlers if ALL the deer have been cultivated to produce such? Where's the trophy?!!! Even if some hunters only want to kill "big" deer, "big" is still relative to the region. |
RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
ORIGINAL: early in ORIGINAL: mez Who am I to tell someone how they can or can't enjoy deer hunting so I will have a chance at a bigger deer. As far as AR go, I personally think it's the very best thing the PGC has done in aLONG time! I'm seeing more bigger bucks than ever before, no doubt.This gives our bucks a chance to live past 1 1/2.:DWhat needs to happen now,is for them to "close" antlerlessseason in some "counties", andlower the number of available tags in others. This doe situation needs a lot more attention than it's getting. It seems to be too across the board/broad. Attention needs to be paidmore onspecific area's. Counties, not whole WMU's.JMHO |
RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
Ok Guys ....... lets talk about WHY AR's are needed ...... let's be honest here ....
1. Increase in anler size and age of bucks 2. Help balance buck/doe ratio - this is only true if the doe permits are handled properly anything else??? |
RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
NOPE! Thank you Preach for summarizing this entire thread. You hit the nail on the head. Lets all say a prayer for PA.
Preach thank you for restoring order :) you may want to take a look at the exterminator thread. Some may need some order, including myself soon[:@] |
RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
ORIGINAL: PABuckbuster12 NOPE! Thank you Preach for summarizing this entire thread. You hit the nail on the head. Lets all say a prayer for PA. Preach thank you for restoring order :) you may want to take a look at the exterminator thread. Some may need some order, including myself soon[:@] |
RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
ORIGINAL: PreacherTony ORIGINAL: Germ Jim have you read the book "Deer Wars"? For the black top dwellers in Armstrong county ,and below ,kill them all,bait them, poision them,but some of us farmers like a few around for entertainment. Maybe a poll from land owners would be more accurate as to how we feel.:eek: |
RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
ORIGINAL: AK in PA I loathe them in Pennsylvania. I never have been, nor never will be hung up on antler size. PA has had point restrictions for several years. Upon initial discussion, I honestly didn't think they would affect my own hunting and almost didn't care one way or the other if the regulation was passed. Now, I can see that I was wrong. During the same period as the antler restriction inaugauration, Pennsylvania's game commission went on a crusade to reduce the deer population, under the pretense of increasing the average antler size. Funny now, how I don't see the bigger bucks, let alone the number of deer that I once did. (Formerly, if I so much as bumped a deer heading in or coming out in the dark I considered myself lucky. I neverdid see the "herds" of deerthat the game commission claimed. Last season, I went 15 days straight without ANY encounter or sighting to even know whitetails still existed.) The bucks that I do see are smaller than before, and I feel like such an @ss staring at one throught binoculars at 5 or 10 yds trying to count their points and make sure they are all an inch long. I don't care what it is. After 20 yrs of hunting, I'd still be thrilled to shoot it! But, I abide them, and ifI can't be certain, I let them walk, albeit shaking my head in disgust the entire time... I don't see what theso called "QDM" buzzis about. WHAT is the point of shooting a deer with large antlers if ALL the deer have been cultivated to produce such? Where's the trophy?!!! Even if some hunters only want to kill "big" deer, "big" is still relative to the region. |
RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
ORIGINAL: bawanajim ORIGINAL: PreacherTony ORIGINAL: Germ Jim have you read the book "Deer Wars"? how far from Buffalo do you live, Jim? |
RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
ORIGINAL: Rob/PA Bowyer ORIGINAL: AK in PA I loathe them in Pennsylvania. I never have been, nor never will be hung up on antler size. PA has had point restrictions for several years. Upon initial discussion, I honestly didn't think they would affect my own hunting and almost didn't care one way or the other if the regulation was passed. Now, I can see that I was wrong. During the same period as the antler restriction inaugauration, Pennsylvania's game commission went on a crusade to reduce the deer population, under the pretense of increasing the average antler size. Funny now, how I don't see the bigger bucks, let alone the number of deer that I once did. (Formerly, if I so much as bumped a deer heading in or coming out in the dark I considered myself lucky. I neverdid see the "herds" of deerthat the game commission claimed. Last season, I went 15 days straight without ANY encounter or sighting to even know whitetails still existed.) The bucks that I do see are smaller than before, and I feel like such an @ss staring at one throught binoculars at 5 or 10 yds trying to count their points and make sure they are all an inch long. I don't care what it is. After 20 yrs of hunting, I'd still be thrilled to shoot it! But, I abide them, and ifI can't be certain, I let them walk, albeit shaking my head in disgust the entire time... I don't see what theso called "QDM" buzzis about. WHAT is the point of shooting a deer with large antlers if ALL the deer have been cultivated to produce such? Where's the trophy?!!! Even if some hunters only want to kill "big" deer, "big" is still relative to the region. |
RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
Minnesota needs to do something, anything! AR's would be a start, and a great one.
ORIGINAL: Germ Iowa kills more % of their deer herd than Minn. If you had a choice to go on a free hunt to Iowa or Minn where would you go?(no offense to Minn hunters) Minn has twice as much habitat;) |
RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
I'm all for AR's in Minnesota. i'm so sick of seeing 1 1/2 yr old bucks it's not even funny. we should also move our gun season out of the rut (that will never fly here though).
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RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
Reread. A part is HR. Most is AR.
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RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
"Too limit a man's ability to legally kill a deer while encouraging another to kill an elephant is a travesty"....mother shadow 2008
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RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
Too limit a man's ability to legally kill a deer while encouraging another to kill an elephant is a travesty"....mother shadow 2008 |
RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
Man, I can't believe there aren't more of us that don't care.
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RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
Who are we managing for?
I'm all for letting the guys with the degrees (read KNOW-how) to manage our natural resources (until a more qualified body comes along).......but who are we trying to "please"? AR's "seem" to shove a QDMA "type" system down some hunters' (in states they've been implemented) throats. What is "hunting", to you? Is it about bigger bucks? What about the majority of hunters in your state? I'm for the guy who gets to hunt 10 times a year.....being able to get "his buck" if that's what he wants to do. From everything I read.....the juvenile bucks do a lion's share of the breeding. To the average hunter.....why should he care if the herd is balanced (hold on...;)) in regards to age structure? As long as the natural resource isn't being depleted to dangerous levels......why should the average hunter care (and I ask this.....being ignorant to the answer) AS LONG AS the buck/doe ratio isn't completely out of kilter? One half of a deer's genetics comes from the doe. I think this fact is oft overlooked. |
RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
Im all for it for many reasons. If you just enjoy the challenge of hunting whitetails and getting outdoors, and or youre after meat, then theres plenty of Does to shoot.
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RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
What is "hunting", to you? Is it about bigger bucks? What about the majority of hunters in your state? As for the doe slaughter, it's exactly what PA and Alt said they would do. Does anyone know why? |
RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
Andy......
If you just enjoy the challenge of hunting whitetails and getting outdoors, and or youre after meat, then theres plenty of Does to shoot. But it ain't all about ME. I know too many guys who couldn't care less about killing a monster buck.....but they sure like to hunt for "A" buck. I'd just hate to deny them (the guy who gets to hunt 10X/yr) of this. EAB? Sure! EAB (with a caveat that 2 had to be harvested before a buck could be legally taken)? Bravo! THAT would serve our purposes (in NC)a LOT better than AR's. (IMO) Plus.....NOBODY would be telling a man he couldn't shoot ANY buck. Gary makes a great point about EAB and BB mortality. It's a double-edged sword. I don't know the answer. But in NC.....HOW is the "mature buck/trophy" hunter helping with our "issues" (too many does)? He isn't. He's part of the problem (if he's not part of the solution). How would (and I don't know the answer) limiting the number of bucks taken (via reduced bag limits) not serve the ame purpose as AR's (in the end)? Less bucks taken can't be a bad thing. And....if herd balance/structure is our REAL goal...wouldn't this be a means to an end? I don't know. I'm aksing. |
RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
One of my buddies in MI coined this phrase
"It's all about the antlers" That goes from the trophy hunter, to the guy shooting a spike. When you come to understand his comment, you understand what deer managers are up against in some states. We know pretty much we will never have a true balance herd here in MI, but we can atleast try and make it a little better:D Even with AR's or OBR those states still have 50% yearly buck kill. That is all we are looking for in MI, 50% is way better than 70%+[&:] |
RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
People ask how do AR's help the over all heath of the herd? If you can only kill certain bucks, that lets"more" bucks live longer to spread desireable genes and help keep a closer buck to doe ratio. At least this is the situation in Pa. I love the AR's here in Pa.
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RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
We're over 50% (buck kills).
How would AR's help this BETTER than EAB? If you figure in the success rate %-age for bowhunters in NC......you're gonna eliminate a LOT of people from the buck killing pool.....simply because there aren't that many guys (%-age-wise) who kill 2 deer a season with their bow. Take away the possibility of that 1st deer being the first buck they see......and I think you've gone a long ways towards achieving your goal. A theory..... |
RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
If you can only kill certain bucks, that lets"more" bucks live longer to spread desireable genes and help keep a closer buck to doe ratio. |
RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
I am not reading 15 pages of debate about antler restrictions.In the absence of any other (same old thing) management I am for them.Are they the best answer no,are they the only answer certainly not,but they are better than doing the same as a state has always done.
I live in an area on New York that has been under antler restrictions for two seasons,this season will be the third,to date it hasn't shown an appreciable effect on the age class of bucks I havetaken but I believe it will,and am willing to show patience to give it a chance. |
RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
ORIGINAL: PABuckbuster12 I know when I was younger, i traveled upstate to big woods to hunt with my fathers hunting buddies. Every given year I would see min 50 deer. Now you go upstate, to the same place, your lucky if you see 5. I would sense theres a problem no? BUT, when I deer hunt Ohio in gun season, there are many days when I don't see a deer at all. Even during bow season, I might not see a deer, although usually I will see at least 2 or 3 during a halfday sit. That is how it supposed to be when the deer herd is at a good level (which I think it is in my part of Ohio). There is just something not right about seeing 50+ deer when you go out deer hunting. I have friends in PA who talk about seeing that many in ONE afternoon of hunting. Well, at least in the "good ol" days. To this day, they still see more in a day than I ever have in Ohio. Well this is in the Western PA and I understand things are different in the mountains. I'd be all for AR in Ohio, but not necessarily to produce bigger bucks. I like the fact that it actually makes people have to identify their target especially during gun season. What a concept! ;) At least right now, I am happy to be living and hunting Ohio. The Division of Wildlife does a good job. Ohio's biggest challenge to hunter is the lack of public hunting land and land access. But I guess that is a problem in other states too. |
RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
ORIGINAL: early in People ask how do AR's help the over all heath of the herd? If you can only kill certain bucks, that lets"more" bucks live longer to spread desireable genes and help keep a closer buck to doe ratio. At least this is the situation in Pa. I love the AR's here in Pa. |
RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
So its OK to tell a guy that he CAN’T shoot ANY buck, until he shoots a doe.
BUT it’s NOT OK to tell him that he CAN’T shoot a buck with X number of points. Makes perfect sense. [&:] |
RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
ORIGINAL: rybohunter So its OK to tell a guy that he CAN’T shoot ANY buck, until he shoots a doe. BUT it’s NOT OK to tell him that he CAN’T shoot a buck with X number of points. Makes perfect sense. [&:] Maybe we should elect the leaders in the Conservation department of our state ..... |
RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
i am for them any attempt to make bigger bucks the norm is a good thing. but i also see the point in now everyone has to be a "trophy hunter".
what about the people who poach.. is this going to be taken more seriously. i know guys who shoot at least 5 bucks a year and none of them are tagged. this in my area is as much if not more of a problem then AR. |
RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
ORIGINAL: rybohunter So its OK to tell a guy that he CAN’T shoot ANY buck, until he shoots a doe. BUT it’s NOT OK to tell him that he CAN’T shoot a buck with X number of points. Makes perfect sense. [&:] |
RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
ORIGINAL: Germ ORIGINAL: rybohunter So its OK to tell a guy that he CAN’T shoot ANY buck, until he shoots a doe. BUT it’s NOT OK to tell him that he CAN’T shoot a buck with X number of points. Makes perfect sense. [&:] |
RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
Those that are against it ...... why not allow some of the 1 1/2 year old bucks to live another year? Isn't it true that many yearlings (1 1/2) would make most antler restriction standards??
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RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
ORIGINAL: bawanajim ORIGINAL: Germ ORIGINAL: rybohunter So its OK to tell a guy that he CAN’T shoot ANY buck, until he shoots a doe. BUT it’s NOT OK to tell him that he CAN’T shoot a buck with X number of points. Makes perfect sense. [&:] Jim's old enough to tell you days of seeing a lot of deer in PA. I bet 90% he saw were does;) Use to be here in MI you would see 100 deer in NLP. 2 of them would be bucks[8D] Our Cabin in NLP is right in the middle of DMU 452. The DNR killed almost all the deer in 452. In late 90's we did a number on the herd. It got to the point seeing a deer track was a good day. 8 years later the herd has come back a bit, and the deer are bigger(bucks and does). Guys are seeing bucks with antlers bigger than they have in years. I am talking 50-60 years. There is enough natural food now where the deer are not eating themselves out of food. Second deer are in good deer habitat, and this is a big one. What most don't get is when you have an over population deer will live anywhere. Hunters get into a habitat of hunting poor deer habitat and seeing deer. Once the numbers come down the deer(this is a shocker to some[&:]) move and live in good deer habitat;) MI out doors went to a guys 20 acres who was whining about not seeing any deer anymore. They were not coming to his feeder, he had 20 acers of pine trees and sand:D |
RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
I would be for them here in NC probably 3 points per side would be nice, you see other states benefit from having them and then some of the 1.5 year olds would make it through the year
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RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
In the big woods of PA the need for herd reduction was obvious a very prominent browse line as far as you could see. No where near enough timbering was or is taking place.
Our so called experts have come up with a plan to cut just 1% of the forest land they control,its call a 100 year plan by them.It called utter ignorance by any one with middle school or higher education. Timber is a harvest able crop just like corn OR soy beans.A twenty to forty year plan would benefit both wildlife and the agencies that own the timber.Pole timber is worthless as wildlife habitat yet thats how its being managed.[:@] In north western PA we have some of the best deer habitat in the country,we have hard wood ridges covered with oak,we have impenetrable swamps and bottom lands that deer can thrive in. The area is comprised of 50 % woodland and 50% crops or pasture according to the states experts.Yet our herd is managed just like the big woods pole timber producing areas in the middle of the state.[:'(] |
RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
ORIGINAL: Brknarrow1970 I would be for them here in NC probably 3 points per side would be nice, you see other states benefit from having them and then some of the 1.5 year olds would make it through the year |
RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
Hell it is pretty bad as it stands, folks hitting the fields at night and picking the bucks off the beanfields? Never thought of that, but would still be for the AR's if you see how many small bucks are taken... why should a 3inch spike, if you want meat shoot a doe
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RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
ORIGINAL: Brknarrow1970 Hell it is pretty bad as it stands, folks hitting the fields at night and picking the bucks off the beanfields? Never thought of that, but would still be for the AR's if you see how many small bucks are taken... why should a 3inch spike, if you want meat shoot a doe Some seem to forget DNR is not the Department of Hunter Satisfaction:eek: |
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