Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
08-05-2008, 09:50 AM
#171
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 7,208
RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
To argue that its ok sometimes to tell people what they can/cannot shoot, but other times its not ok is ridiculous. I suppose its ony ok as long as you agree
1.5 year old bucks vary too much to know who will wind up being top dog as a mature buck. Letting them live longer helps to sort out the best genes on thier own, as opposed to randomly distributing them as 1.5's. Living longer in and of itself, does absolutely nothing regarding passing on "smart" genes. But getting them past that first year when they are the dumbest, can help them live a 3rd & 4th season even though they are no longer getting free passes.
Jeff,
My attempt to exlain what you are askingEI is this:
As 1.5's you can't tell at all what a bucks genetic make up will eventually turn out to be. So a bigger at the time buck, may breed over one who's smaller, but carries better genes. Or you can just say that all 1.5's will breed, rather than letting them get older and sorted out such that the biggest stringest bucks breed.
And I've read studies, where having more mature bucks in the herd, supresses young bucks from breeding, hence they do not expend energy to do so, and in turn can grow and maximize thier potential sooner in life. ie you end up with a healthier herd.
1.5 year old bucks vary too much to know who will wind up being top dog as a mature buck. Letting them live longer helps to sort out the best genes on thier own, as opposed to randomly distributing them as 1.5's. Living longer in and of itself, does absolutely nothing regarding passing on "smart" genes. But getting them past that first year when they are the dumbest, can help them live a 3rd & 4th season even though they are no longer getting free passes.
Jeff,
My attempt to exlain what you are askingEI is this:
As 1.5's you can't tell at all what a bucks genetic make up will eventually turn out to be. So a bigger at the time buck, may breed over one who's smaller, but carries better genes. Or you can just say that all 1.5's will breed, rather than letting them get older and sorted out such that the biggest stringest bucks breed.
And I've read studies, where having more mature bucks in the herd, supresses young bucks from breeding, hence they do not expend energy to do so, and in turn can grow and maximize thier potential sooner in life. ie you end up with a healthier herd.
08-05-2008, 09:57 AM
#172
Dominant Buck
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location:
Posts: 21,043
RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
Check post 165
That 3.5 yr old buck's genes don't get "no smarter"
if they stay in his loins for 2 more years. He has the SAME genetic composition as a 1.5yr old as he will have as a 3.5 yr old.
08-05-2008, 10:00 AM
#173
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 7,208
RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
That 3.5 yr old buck's genes don't get "no smarter"if they stay in his loins for 2 more years. He has the SAME genetic composition as a 1.5yr old as he will have as a 3.5 yr old.
if they stay in his loins for 2 more years. He has the SAME genetic composition as a 1.5yr old as he will have as a 3.5 yr old.
08-05-2008, 10:05 AM
#174
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Mont County, Pa
Posts: 7,368
RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
ORIGINAL: GMMAT
???????????????????
That 3.5 yr old buck's genes don't get "no smarter"if they stay in his loins for 2 more years. He has the SAME genetic composition as a 1.5yr old as he will have as a 3.5 yr old.
Check post 165
That 3.5 yr old buck's genes don't get "no smarter"
if they stay in his loins for 2 more years. He has the SAME genetic composition as a 1.5yr old as he will have as a 3.5 yr old.
08-05-2008, 10:11 AM
#176
Dominant Buck
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location:
Posts: 21,043
RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
And I've read studies, where having more mature bucks in the herd, supresses young bucks from breeding, hence they do not expend energy to do so, and in turn can grow and maximize thier potential sooner in life. ie you end up with a healthier herd.
Give me a team of stud freshmen baseball players......and pit them against a group of mediocre juniors and seniors....and Ill take my chances with the youngsters. You're guaranteeing (by instituting AR's....in a LOT of instances) that the inferior bucks WILLlive to see another year.....when maybe they aren't the best breeding stock you have. What could be better than "natural selection".....and letting the TRUE cream of the crop rise? Will you kill some of these potential studs by NOT having AR's? Yep. Will as many inferior bucks slip through the cracks (by virtue SOLELEY of what's on their heads)? Yep. They're breeding, too.
It would seem to me.....that the bucks who elude hunters (although they risk peril, every year.....regardless of their headgear)are thegreatest examples of "natural selection". I've never seen any studies that show that a larger rack = intelligence.
08-05-2008, 10:11 AM
#177
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Michigan/Ohio
Posts: 11,682
RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
ORIGINAL: early in
They won't stay in his loins, he'll breed. It will become a progressive thing. At some point he'll be putting a 3 1/2 year old's genes into a doe. No? I'll be back after lunch.
ORIGINAL: GMMAT
???????????????????
That 3.5 yr old buck's genes don't get "no smarter"if they stay in his loins for 2 more years. He has the SAME genetic composition as a 1.5yr old as he will have as a 3.5 yr old.
Check post 165
That 3.5 yr old buck's genes don't get "no smarter"
if they stay in his loins for 2 more years. He has the SAME genetic composition as a 1.5yr old as he will have as a 3.5 yr old.
08-05-2008, 10:26 AM
#179
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 7,208
RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
I'm wondering (help me) how this constitutes a "healthier herd". Who's to say the genes the 3.5yr old is carrying are superior to the ones the 1.5yr old is carrying? Just because the 3.5yr old is doing a lot of breeding.....is this necessarily a "good" thing? IF you view a better cross-section of age groups as being a "healthier herd".....then I see your point. I look at it like this......
Give me a team of stud freshmen baseball players......and pit them against a group of mediocre juniors and seniors....and Ill take my chances with the youngsters. You're guaranteeing (by instituting AR's....in a LOT of instances) that the inferior bucks WILLlive to see another year.....when maybe they aren't the best breeding stock you have. What could be better than "natural selection".....and letting the TRUE cream of the crop rise? Will you kill some of these potential studs by NOT having AR's? Yep. Will as many inferior bucks slip through the cracks (by virtue SOLELEY of what's on their heads)? Yep. They're breeding, too.
It would seem to me.....that the bucks who elude hunters (although they risk peril, every year.....regardless of their headgear)are thegreatest examples of "natural selection". I've never seen any studies that show that a larger rack = intelligence.
Give me a team of stud freshmen baseball players......and pit them against a group of mediocre juniors and seniors....and Ill take my chances with the youngsters. You're guaranteeing (by instituting AR's....in a LOT of instances) that the inferior bucks WILLlive to see another year.....when maybe they aren't the best breeding stock you have. What could be better than "natural selection".....and letting the TRUE cream of the crop rise? Will you kill some of these potential studs by NOT having AR's? Yep. Will as many inferior bucks slip through the cracks (by virtue SOLELEY of what's on their heads)? Yep. They're breeding, too.
It would seem to me.....that the bucks who elude hunters (although they risk peril, every year.....regardless of their headgear)are thegreatest examples of "natural selection". I've never seen any studies that show that a larger rack = intelligence.
1. Much of whatI read says that genetic makeup/potential CANNOT be determined from 1st year racks. So you have just as much chance at killing the next booner whether you shoot a forky or a basket 8.
2. What I (my opinion only) is that, a healthier herd is one that allows the deer to grow and reach thier potential and lets THEM sort out who breeds. (to the best extent possible).
3. Bucks eluding hunters in PA have nothing to do with being the best at elduing hunters nad being the best natural selection tool, it ALL has to do with random luck.
4. The significance of small(less points) bucks living real long and dilluting down the gene pool is statistically insignificant. We are not over run with mature 4 pts like the gloom & doomers predicted.
5. No one said AR's are perfect, and I know they have thier short comings. BUT unless you can get a VAST majority of people to buy in to QDM, one of the few ways to achieve saving a few more bucks each season, is implementing an AR program
08-05-2008, 10:31 AM
#180
Giant Nontypical
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Heaven is my home, temporarily residing in WNY :)
Posts: 6,679
RE: Antler Restiction programs ...are you for or against them?
ORIGINAL: GMMAT
And I've read studies, where having more mature bucks in the herd, supresses young bucks from breeding, hence they do not expend energy to do so, and in turn can grow and maximize thier potential sooner in life. ie you end up with a healthier herd.
I'm wondering (help me) how this constitutes a "healthier herd". Who's to say the genes the 3.5yr old is carrying are superior to the ones the 1.5yr old is carrying? Just because the 3.5yr old is doing a lot of breeding.....is this necessarily a "good" thing? IF you view a better cross-section of age groups as being a "healthier herd".....then I see your point. I look at it like this......
Give me a team of stud freshmen baseball players......and pit them against a group of mediocre juniors and seniors....and Ill take my chances with the youngsters. You're guaranteeing (by instituting AR's....in a LOT of instances) that the inferior bucks WILLlive to see another year.....when maybe they aren't the best breeding stock you have. What could be better than "natural selection".....and letting the TRUE cream of the crop rise? Will you kill some of these potential studs by NOT having AR's? Yep. Will as many inferior bucks slip through the cracks (by virtue SOLELEY of what's on their heads)? Yep. They're breeding, too.
It would seem to me.....that the bucks who elude hunters (although they risk peril, every year.....regardless of their headgear)are thegreatest examples of "natural selection". I've never seen any studies that show that a larger rack = intelligence.
And I've read studies, where having more mature bucks in the herd, supresses young bucks from breeding, hence they do not expend energy to do so, and in turn can grow and maximize thier potential sooner in life. ie you end up with a healthier herd.
Give me a team of stud freshmen baseball players......and pit them against a group of mediocre juniors and seniors....and Ill take my chances with the youngsters. You're guaranteeing (by instituting AR's....in a LOT of instances) that the inferior bucks WILLlive to see another year.....when maybe they aren't the best breeding stock you have. What could be better than "natural selection".....and letting the TRUE cream of the crop rise? Will you kill some of these potential studs by NOT having AR's? Yep. Will as many inferior bucks slip through the cracks (by virtue SOLELEY of what's on their heads)? Yep. They're breeding, too.
It would seem to me.....that the bucks who elude hunters (although they risk peril, every year.....regardless of their headgear)are thegreatest examples of "natural selection". I've never seen any studies that show that a larger rack = intelligence.