early in

This is true. However, the fact remains that even where there are a ton more deer, which there is, there hasn't been any real change in deer kill/hunter numbers. Hencethe increase in allotted tags. I should also mention I hunt public land and am amazed by the low number of hunters, reguardless ofthe weapon of choice.

Germ

MAtt MI is close to PA and we are just about ready to pass xbows in Archery.

Two main differnces

1 PA has more hunters
2 MI has two buck tags

I think it's about a wash. I disagree with all your numbers. I don't think as many hunters are going to convert as you stated. I am guessing(only gusssing) less than half. Of the half I am guessing the success rate the first two years is less than 10%. Being these guys hunt like they have a gun, being you still have to get close to kill one, I just don't see it happing. Of the 100,000 that do convert, at least half will be done in 5 years. It will be too hard

I see compound hunters converting to become the majority of xbow hunters. We know they will be about 2% better than with a bow.

We just see it differnet, and there is nothing wrong with that

Just think where bowhunting would be today without compounds? Would some states even have a season?

For those who state it's about money, well it is and always will be. Hunting is the 12th biggest industry in the USA when put together. Without money no bowhunting

Big Duane

Matt / PA

Quote:

It has already been written in nice dark print that if crossbows are allowed here in PA they are going to have to shorten the archery season.

you could dark print that PA will blow up too when crossbows are allowed, that doesn't mean it will happen

PROOF it will happen, FACTS to back your belief it will happen ....... give me something besides a side affect of P&Y fear tactics.



most likely now? I thought you just said they will HAVE TO do it? you mean you don't know now, its just specualtion on your part ?


speculation on both, theory and not fact and ever other states that have allowed crossbows to everyone ver very few people if anyone complains now

funny that huh ?



no its not the same, but what happened when compounds were allowed in PA archery season ? hunters numbers went up 1000% and seasons actually probably increased too didn't they ? when compounds went to 80% letoff, and 300 fps, with mechanical releases, carbon arrows .......... all of that INCREASED hunters in the woods.

where are all the threads complaining about THAT Matt / PA ?

fiction, wives tale, P&Yscare tactics, fables


Sorry, those fears are unfounded and the G&F of PA knows it and they're doing what they're suppose to do - maximize huning opportunities and make money and getting more people into archery season by way of crossbows is a GOOD THING. Heck, maybe you'll triple your bowhunting numbers, and by sheer number of bowhunters petition the G&F to ADD 4 weeks to your season and reduce gun by 1 week.

Theory - it COULD happen, just like ya'lls theory- based on nothing



ok, WHO is saying this ?


because if you can show me crossbows are a NEGATIVE to archery season, I'll JOIN you in being against them

Matt / PA

From the UBP Website outlining the source of hoopla concerning crossbows in PA:

The crossbow industry and the various and numerous trade and commerce associations which support them, long recognizing a potential market share in Pennsylvania worth multiple millions of dollars, has finally succeeded in convincing at least 55 members of the Pennsylvania House of Representatives that by merely ‘legally’ changing the Title 34 definition of ‘bow’, currently defined as hand held, hand drawn and held in place by hand or with a hand held mechanical trigger to now also include the crossbow in that definition of what is a bow. This legislation changes the definition of a bow from a hand held, hand drawn, in the presence of game hunting implement, to ‘include’ a device that is hand held, but actually in the condition of and as a fully loaded, locked, and cocked device, requiring no concern for physical movement or mental training to accomplish the task at hand, much like a firearm; the crossbow.
If this legislation that will re-define the legal definition of what constitutes a vertical bow and that of a crossbow to be one and the same, all existing and future archery seasons would be understood to include the crossbow.
There is little data available to either substantiate or disprove the crossbow industry’s documented claims that there will be no significant biological impact on the deer management plan in Pennsylvania, or any possible effect on the duration of the presently long-existing and well-tested successful archery seasons in the state. There is; only rampant commercial speculation as to how many crossbows may be sold in Pennsylvania if the Legislation passes. There has been no consideration by either the crossbow industry’s commercial interests nor the 55 members of the House of Representatives currently signed as co-sponsors to House Bill 2653, for the possibly significant social ramifications on the already severely stressed relationships between Pennsylvania’s already existing many special interest hunting factions. There is, or was also, no consideration by either party, of the extremely difficult to predict overall effects to wildlife management in a state that historically fielded nearly a million sportsmen per year, or for that matter, in a state which has more acres of public lands shared by more varied outdoor enthusiasts than nearly any other state in the nation.


Hopefully Mr. Frye wouldn't object to me postingthe following here also.......concerning what was talked about above: House bill 2653

By Bob Frye
TRIBUNE-REVIEW OUTDOORS EDITOR
Sunday, June 29, 2008

Could hunters who use crossbows to take deer in places like Allegheny County get the opportunity to lug them off to deer camp someday soon?
Maybe so. The Pennsylvania Game Commission will look into the possibility of allowing hunters to use crossbows for big game in all seasons.
Hunters can already use crossbows in Pennsylvania in certain situations. Anyone who can get a doctor to say they're physically incapable of drawing a conventional bow can get a permit to use them in any big game season. More able-bodied hunters can also use them to hunt elk, bears, and even deer in special regulations areas.
They've been off limits in other situations, though -- most noticeably the statewide archery deer season.

At last week's Game Commission meeting in Harrisburg, however, commissioner Russ Schleiden of Centre County asked agency staff to investigate the pros and cons of introducing crossbows to all seasons in time for the 2009-2010 hunting seasons.
He asked for a report to be presented at the agency's October meeting, which will be held in Washington County.
"The crossbow has been approved for just about every season but one," said Schleiden, of Centre County. "I feel it's been long overdue."
The idea is sure to generate lots of debate.
The United Bowhunters of Pennsylvania -- the group representing the state's organized archers -- has long opposed the legalization of crossbows for the archery season.
In a report on the organization's web site, UBP president Wes Waldron said the group opposes "the use of crossbows in the general archery season by those fully capable of drawing and holding a conventional bow."
The previous three attempts at legalizing crossbows for Pennsylvnaia's archery deer seasons were all sparked by requests from crossbow manufacturers, dealers, and state lawmakers, Waldron added.

Commissioner Tom Boop of Northumberland County believes that is the case again this time.
Typically, he said, commissioners make changes to game laws based on "a perceived need, or a perceived desire," expressed by the agency's constituents. But he said he's heard from no hunters asking for crossbows.
"I think it's fair to say that this is being driven by manufacturers and lobbyists and not from our stakeholder groups," Boop said.
Indeed, the only person to testify in support of crossbows at the agency's June meeting was a representative of a crossbow manufacturer.
Schleiden -- who said he does not own a crossbow and has no plans to get one -- hinted that there is broader support for the tool, though he did not specify who that might be.
"I think you'll find out once we introduce it," he said.
Schleiden did admit that introducing crossbows to archery season could have ramifications. If too many hunters take up crossbows and shoot too many deer, the commission might have to consider shortening archery season or bag limits, he said.



If I can find the other source where I read the PGC reiterating the likelihood of shortening the season or bag limits I'll post it.

Like I said.......even commissioners have stated that this not something that is being driven by the bowhunters or even HUNTERS in general of this state.

Lanse couche couche

There were no commercial interests driving the traditional bow and compound bow movements in the past and present?

GMMAT

Good question.

Just how many years ago were compounds legalized during the archery season? Were they ever "illegal"?

Germ

One thing we know about history, were doomed to repeat it

Big Duane

UPB is hardly a good source for an unbiased source Matt / PA

that first quote is ALL speculation, with a nice twist of fear added

ok, you need to stop saying it WILL happen and replace it withits your opinoion, or there is apossibility that balks what every other states seasons have went through etc etc

Quote:

Like I said.......even commissioners have stated that this not something that is being driven by the bowhunters or even HUNTERS in general of this state.

you seriously don't understand that EVERYTHING is driven that way. People didn't ASK for compounds, or carbons, or mechanical heads ....... manufacturers gave them to us when seeing a way to "improve" and i use that word loosley.

and we, as consumers, bought into it all and we do every fall with new gadgets and equipment that pushed the fringes of legal and ethical




facts and proof Matt / PA 24 pages, and I can offer you my proof by way of whats happened in states that HAVE allowed crossbows. Theres my proof, its all I have to offer from stats from those states showing no decrease in archery seasons, or tags, and no massive increase in bowhunter numbers

in other words, no negative impact

if you cannot provide even one little fact to say they shouldn't be allowed, then what you're doing is opposing something without a factual reason. now, your true reason might be selfish (you want the woods to yourself) but sir, that is a terrible thing if you really want that I think

Quote:

Just how many years ago were compounds legalized during the archery season? Were they ever "illegal"?

Yes, archery laws had to be ammended to include compounds, >50% letoff, >65% letoff, >80% letoff, mechanical releases, mechanical broadheads, baiting, arrow rests ........ the rules change EVERY YEAR to include/allow new technology into the sport of bowhunting.

early in

Yes Jeff, I remember when I first started bowhunting in Pa, compounds were not legal at the time, only recurves. I think they became legal somewhere around 1977 or 1978. I'm sure someone can be more specific on this though.

Matt / PA

Surely commercial crossbows were around in the late 70's too........if they were so close in technology to compounds(probably more so then than now?), then why weren't they just adopted at the same time. Surely they aren't justNOW all of a sudden archery tackle?
If they are being argued as bows now ,why weren't they consideredequal then?

Crossbows are successful in a state like Ohio because Ohio has grown over that same time period WITH crossbows, they haven't just been shoved down their throats in the last year or so.