Opinions on Crossbows
07-09-2008, 01:17 PM
#241
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Michigan/Ohio
Posts: 11,682
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
ORIGINAL: Arthur P
After serving more than 20 terms as an officer in two different local archery clubs, I can tell you flat out for fact that's the way it always is. 90% of the people that want something will let 10% do all the work, and then come out ot the woodwork to take advantage of the 10%'s hard work. When you expand that across the entire state, that percentage really drops. I doubt there is a single state bowhunting organization that can claim more than 1% of the bowhunters in their state as members. Very few of those are actually going to be active in working for the org. Most won't even take the time to make a phone call, write a letter or even send an e-mail on behalf of an issue that concerns them.
The same is undoubtedly true on the crossbow side.
Yea a lot of people may like the idea and will use one if it passes, but not enough to fight to get it passed.
The same is undoubtedly true on the crossbow side.
Arthur that right there is Gospel. I am not a fan of the MBH(Michigan Bowhunters). They are fighting against xbows, and also are the ones that came up with the 80% rule here in MI and got it passed.
MBH is also on the wrong side of a few other issues IMO, but it's 5000 members strong[&:]and they think they speak for 300,000+ bowhunters in our state[&:]
07-09-2008, 01:22 PM
#242
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Southwest Ohio
Posts: 10,277
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
The crazy thing to me is the issue of how many folks in any given state are "pure" bow hunters. Most of the guys that I am around just think of them as deer hunters and tend to go with whatever is legal at the time that they want to go, whether it be ML, shotguns, bow and arrows, or crossbows.
07-09-2008, 03:42 PM
#243
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Dover, PA USA
Posts: 5,497
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
Here's a stat I love
Long bow(compounds included) 21% succes Rate
Cross Bow Succes Rate 23%
This is for Ohio, look out
This argument fight has come down to 1 thing IMO, Fear.
Most fear an influx of hunters and someone shooting their deer.
Long bow(compounds included) 21% succes Rate
Cross Bow Succes Rate 23%
This is for Ohio, look out
This argument fight has come down to 1 thing IMO, Fear.
Most fear an influx of hunters and someone shooting their deer.
I don't know our bowhunter success rates currently but for giggles lets say PA allows crossbows into the season and another 200,000 crossbow hunters are created in a year or 2 from the ranks of the 630,000ish rifle hunters who don't currently bowhunt.
Now use your math and stats and since PA is better than Ohio anyway we'll jump the success rate for PA crossbowers up to a nice round 25%.
25% of a new population of 200,000 guys in archery season equals 50,000 more dead deer if my math is right.
We've just added a nother 50,000 harvested deer in 6 weeks which will have to be taken into account for when they set the seasons and bag limits for the following year. (Especially when they see how the BUCk harvest will go up)
So in the following year when they tell me "Sorry man we have to cut the 2 weeks of Novemeber from the archery season because of the new harvest dynamic" I'm supposed to just bend over and say "Thank you sir may I have another"
It has already been written in nice dark print that if crossbows are allowed here in PA they are going to have to shorten the archery season. A season extended into November that was fought and gained by the United Bowhunters of PA and which we will most likely now lose at the hands of something we didn't want in the first place. YIPPY.[&o]
So in a wonderful state where we already cannot hunt on Sundays adding the crossbow will accomplish these wonderful things for us:
Shorter season due to an increased fall harvest, more crowding in the fall woods.
So when a state like Illinois is just starting to think about getting serious with their bows........ours will already be cased up for the season. We'll be done before Halloween just like we were before the UBP won the extension into the first 2 weeks of November.
Where can I vote yes.
Not sure how much I can say it or how many times, PA is not like Arkansas or Ohio that has been filetring crossbow hunters in for 30 years. We are too far gone here in PA in population, mentality and available land to hunt.
IF they really do fit a herd dynamic and a management plan and bowhunters can still find peace in other states like Arkansas that's great. It works for you guys but don't anyone who hunts elsewhere preach to me about what is going to work here when all your doing is spreading a false premise of good things to come.
07-09-2008, 03:54 PM
#244
Dominant Buck
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location:
Posts: 21,043
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
25% of a new population of 200,000 guys in archery season equals 50,000 more dead deer if my math is right.
With all due respect....you're assuming these hunters wouldn't be successful in one of the gun seasons.....since you're a one and done buck state.
The amount of tags wouldn't change.....so, theoretically....the number of harvests shouldn't, either.
I'm on you guys side as far as YOUR state goes (wouldn't matter, here IMO).....but the above needs noting if we're going to look at this logically.
If my logic is way off.....I suspect someone will set me straight.
07-09-2008, 04:00 PM
#245
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 7,208
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
Jeff
I can see your point, and in theory I suppose it shouldn't matter, but we already get hammered in this state from the gun hunters that the bow hunters kill all the bucks before gun season comes in, up that number by 50K & they will be IRATE that we are shooting "thier" deer. Hence, the reduced season Matt talked about.
I can see your point, and in theory I suppose it shouldn't matter, but we already get hammered in this state from the gun hunters that the bow hunters kill all the bucks before gun season comes in, up that number by 50K & they will be IRATE that we are shooting "thier" deer. Hence, the reduced season Matt talked about.
07-09-2008, 04:06 PM
#246
Dominant Buck
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location:
Posts: 21,043
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
Don't get me wrong, Rybo......
It wouldn't bother me if you guys just came right out and said....
"Look....we're already HAMMERING the woods with over 300,000 bowhunters in PA, right now. Get a freakin clue. We don't need the woods MORE full ofhunting bodiesthan they already are."
In your special set of circumstances.....I'd say that was a valid argument against them (xbows).
It wouldn't bother me if you guys just came right out and said....
"Look....we're already HAMMERING the woods with over 300,000 bowhunters in PA, right now. Get a freakin clue. We don't need the woods MORE full ofhunting bodiesthan they already are."
In your special set of circumstances.....I'd say that was a valid argument against them (xbows).
07-09-2008, 04:08 PM
#247
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Dover, PA USA
Posts: 5,497
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
Matt:
With all due respect....you're assuming these hunters wouldn't be successful in one of the gun seasons.....since you're a one and done buck state.
The amount of tags wouldn't change.....so, theoretically....the number of harvests shouldn't, either.
I'm on you guys side as far as YOUR state goes (wouldn't matter, here IMO).....but the above needs noting if we're going to look at this logically.
If my logic is way off.....I suspect someone will set me straight.
With all due respect....you're assuming these hunters wouldn't be successful in one of the gun seasons.....since you're a one and done buck state.
The amount of tags wouldn't change.....so, theoretically....the number of harvests shouldn't, either.
I'm on you guys side as far as YOUR state goes (wouldn't matter, here IMO).....but the above needs noting if we're going to look at this logically.
If my logic is way off.....I suspect someone will set me straight.
The total buck harvest per year will increase because of the higher ratio of success that will be achieved in bow season vs. gun season is the way I understand it.
That's where it gets really biology and harvest ratio oriented and why I say nobody from Arkansas has the ability to say it will not negatively affect the PA season.
How it affects North Dakota or South Carolina I couldn't give a flip but I sure care about it here.
Unless someone sees a 2 week shorter season in a state where we can't hunt Sundays as a POSITIVE thing? then I'M missing something .........because that's what has already been stated by the Pennsylvania Game Commission as the likely scenario if they are adopted HERE.
So the one and only thing we canput down as a FACT for what crossbows will do for us here in PA is a shorter season, because it's already been laid out.
To me that's a negative and I don't want any part of it.
07-09-2008, 04:18 PM
#248
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Mont County, Pa
Posts: 7,368
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
Don't get this twisted. I'm not coming tobat for CB user's, buthere are somefacts reguarding this subject as far as Pa goes. There has been no significant change in numbers of hunters afield, or any real change in the number of deer killed as a result of CB's being made legal to hunt with in Special Regs WMU's, or state wide (firearms season). In fact,in certain WMU's they have extended the season (antlerless only)by two weeks, are currently in the process of making it legal to kill a second deer before tagging the first one, and allowing bait to be used on private land only.
There is also an unlimited number of antlerless tags available in WMU 5-D, and they even increased the total number of these tags by 2000. I also should mention there has been a steady decline in most all types of hunting license salesthroughout the state of Pa. Even though I've put my CB away, because I like more of achallenge, CB's have made little difference in Pa hunting.
There is also an unlimited number of antlerless tags available in WMU 5-D, and they even increased the total number of these tags by 2000. I also should mention there has been a steady decline in most all types of hunting license salesthroughout the state of Pa. Even though I've put my CB away, because I like more of achallenge, CB's have made little difference in Pa hunting.
07-09-2008, 05:22 PM
#249
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Michigan/Ohio
Posts: 11,682
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
ORIGINAL: Matt / PA
The number of fall harvests in bow season WOULD change (Especially the buck harvest) and they've already stated in black and white that the season WILL be shortened to accomodate the new bow season harvest dynamic.
The total buck harvest per year will increase because of the higher ratio of success that will be achieved in bow season vs. gun season is the way I understand it.
That's where it gets really biology and harvest ratio oriented and why I say nobody from Arkansas has the ability to say it will not negatively affect the PA season.
How it affects North Dakota or South Carolina I couldn't give a flip but I sure care about it here.
Unless someone sees a 2 week shorter season in a state where we can't hunt Sundays as a POSITIVE thing? then I'M missing something .........because that's what has already been stated by the Pennsylvania Game Commission as the likely scenario if they are adopted HERE.
So the one and only thing we canput down as a FACT for what crossbows will do for us here in PA is a shorter season, because it's already been laid out.
To me that's a negative and I don't want any part of it.
Matt:
With all due respect....you're assuming these hunters wouldn't be successful in one of the gun seasons.....since you're a one and done buck state.
The amount of tags wouldn't change.....so, theoretically....the number of harvests shouldn't, either.
I'm on you guys side as far as YOUR state goes (wouldn't matter, here IMO).....but the above needs noting if we're going to look at this logically.
If my logic is way off.....I suspect someone will set me straight.
With all due respect....you're assuming these hunters wouldn't be successful in one of the gun seasons.....since you're a one and done buck state.
The amount of tags wouldn't change.....so, theoretically....the number of harvests shouldn't, either.
I'm on you guys side as far as YOUR state goes (wouldn't matter, here IMO).....but the above needs noting if we're going to look at this logically.
If my logic is way off.....I suspect someone will set me straight.
The total buck harvest per year will increase because of the higher ratio of success that will be achieved in bow season vs. gun season is the way I understand it.
That's where it gets really biology and harvest ratio oriented and why I say nobody from Arkansas has the ability to say it will not negatively affect the PA season.
How it affects North Dakota or South Carolina I couldn't give a flip but I sure care about it here.
Unless someone sees a 2 week shorter season in a state where we can't hunt Sundays as a POSITIVE thing? then I'M missing something .........because that's what has already been stated by the Pennsylvania Game Commission as the likely scenario if they are adopted HERE.
So the one and only thing we canput down as a FACT for what crossbows will do for us here in PA is a shorter season, because it's already been laid out.
To me that's a negative and I don't want any part of it.
Why we fight to keep folks out of the woods I will never understand
07-09-2008, 05:30 PM
#250
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 7,208
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
Don't get this twisted. I'm not coming tobat for CB user's, buthere are somefacts reguarding this subject as far as Pa goes. There has been no significant change in numbers of hunters afield, or any real change in the number of deer killed as a result of CB's being made legal to hunt with in Special Regs WMU's, or state wide (firearms season). In fact,in certain WMU's they have extended the season (antlerless only)by two weeks, are currently in the process of making it legal to kill a second deer before tagging the first one, and allowing bait to be used on private land only.
There is also an unlimited number of antlerless tags available in WMU 5-D, and they even increased the total number of these tags by 2000. I also should mention there has been a steady decline in most all types of hunting license salesthroughout the state of Pa. Even though I've put my CB away, because I like more of achallenge, CB's have made little difference in Pa hunting.
There is also an unlimited number of antlerless tags available in WMU 5-D, and they even increased the total number of these tags by 2000. I also should mention there has been a steady decline in most all types of hunting license salesthroughout the state of Pa. Even though I've put my CB away, because I like more of achallenge, CB's have made little difference in Pa hunting.